We need more congressmen like this

[[AoW]ForLife]

Alright then I was just confused Nice speech.
By the way: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071113/ap_ ... /war_costs

[Vindicator]

They WANT to pull out troops, and this is what would happen.

Choose your poision, the democrats can either cut funding for the war, or order a troop withdraw. Both take time, both are suicide.

The bill would be passed, vetoed, and assuming the veto is overrided, the troops would start leaving Iraq, or funding would be cut. What happens next most people can guess, and the democrats already know, which is why they havent done it yet.

If Troops are pulled out, we will "lose" the war, the democratic party will be painted in favor of terrorism, anti democratic, and anti American. The democratic party would not live long, and it would eventually be replaced by a new party.

The most effective way to remove troops would be to cut funding. No funding, no military action. However, this is also the most problematic. Every american death after such a bill is passed to cut funding, will be on the hands of the democrats. If the republicans can do one thing right, it make the democrats look bad. The democrats cut the funding, so the soldiers dont have the supplies they need, and they can not fulfil their duties. As a result american casualties are on the rise because withdrawl is not over night. The democratic party will have the murder of american soldiers on their hands. The party would be non exsistant before elections next year (assuming the bill is passed now.

Democrats and political analysts have known this for a long time, but the democrats knew they could win congress promising withdraw, only they cant provide it. Filling congress with democrats only allowed them to be there when it counted, and not even deal with the troops. They know its impossible to withdraw troops and not destroy the democratic party as of right now.

Eh, yesterday I heard the Democrats are shooting for troop withdrawal and the President isn't allowing it. So, I guess the Democrats don't really care about any of that and are listening to the people.

I heard that too, and i was qutie shocked, until of course i read their plan. then i loled.

The democrats, after their onslaught of bills with hidden tax raise proposals that Bush vetoed, now plan to only give Bush $50 Billion for the war effort for next year, a measly sum, and that troop withdraw will be complete and only a small token of forces wil remain in december....next year!

Way to get on the ball there democrats. Come high and mighty storming congress with your proclamations of ending the war and bringing the troops home. Only now have you a grown a single testicle to do so, although i cant say i blame them, after all, suicide is not appealing. The way i see it, they are stranggling themselves with their own hands. They wont die, and i doubt they will be seriously hurt, but they will get light headed and maybe pass out unless they really fark something up. I never expected the democrats to really provide a sure way of leaving iraq, because its quite impossible as is, and they know it is, because they gave a 13 month withdraw plan, clearly hoping circumstances will go in their favor during that time.

The iraqi government has absolutely no desire or need to stand on their own feet yet. They have two solid gold crutches and they are wrapped a nice wool American flag. Shit, i wouldnt mind that, but the point is, withdraw is impossible until the government is self sufficient, and there is no incentive there yet. Every crisisbrings the same respnse "o, the American military will handle it". For troop withdraw to be truely successful, there needs to be a working and functional government for the people, or else it will just become a terrorist breeding ground where feeling will wroses, conditions will worsen, and circumstances will worsen, until once again than familiar scene of the American army is seen coming through the streets again in another war on terror.

[Nuklear]

All I've got to say is...Ron Paul for President.

[[AoW]ForLife]

Why should America war terror again though? The way our economy's going, terrorists won't even be targeting America as the wealthiest nation by the time we withdraw...
Anyway, Vindicator, congress is supposed to do what is best. Right now, a 13 month withdrawal plan is better than none at all, at least in the eyes of those who are pro-withdrawal. Plus, they'll only fully withdraw after the election, and the way its going now it looks like it might be given a little more support in 2009 should anything muck it up in '08. Assuming the legislation is passed.

[Vindicator]

Why should America war terror again though? The way our economy's going, terrorists won't even be targeting America as the wealthiest nation by the time we withdraw...
Anyway, Vindicator, congress is supposed to do what is best. Right now, a 13 month withdrawal plan is better than none at all, at least in the eyes of those who are pro-withdrawal. Plus, they'll only fully withdraw after the election, and the way its going now it looks like it might be given a little more support in 2009 should anything muck it up in '08. Assuming the legislation is passed.

May i ask you a question? Do you view the government as an establishment that looks for the best interests of all the people? and of America? Not do you think it SHOULD, but do you think that in this day, today, that they DO?

I certainly don't. Government is the most corrupt, secretive establishment this country has seen in a long time.

Terrorism has little to do with the US being the worlds leading super power. It has to do with Islamic fundamentalist ideas that everything westernized and modernized is evil. They US has not had the best history with those people to begin with, and to make things worse, America is the symbol of westernized civilization. Terrorists target America for the symbol, the long brooding hate over past struggles, and because stabbing the world's super power is quite an accomplishment for them.

From the top of my head:
"A building is a symbol, as is the act of destroying. Alone, a symbol is meaningless, but with enough people, blowing up a building can change the world."

I don't agree a 13 month withdraw plan is better than nothing, because at this point in time, they have a time frame, and no means to meet that time frame. Unless i see some evidence of a logical and rational plan for withdrawing troops, it is all folly. A 13 month withdraw plan without any plans for the country in the after math is disaster. The new government will collapse, chaos will ensure, terrorists will bread, and war will start all over again, Unless we can stop the menace now, and stop it quick. After the World Trade Centers was attacked, Bush was the Hero of the nation. Not a single person can criticize Bush for how he reacted to the attacks. He far surpased expectations. He did not run to camp david and tell the terrorist "bad" from his bunker. He went to NYC, stood on the rubble, and told the terrorist to come get him. He stood up for America, he did the right thing by waging war, but the same problem has plagued the war since the start. There is no clear solution to establishing a self sufficient government that can rule the Iraqi people without the help of the American Military.

Withdraw is long over due, dont mistake me there, but damit withdraw has to be done proper or else the withdraw is meaningless if we go back!

im very tired, there prolly a million grammar mistakes and what not, but im exaughsted and im going to bed.

[XemnasXD]

@Vindicator

America isn't targeted as a symbol...with all this political jumbo your spouting off you should at least be aware of the US terrorist activities throughout the world and im not talking about ancient history i mean they are responsible for the death of MILLIONS of civilians foreign countries in attempts to over through or change their gov't in the last 50 years. America is targeted because its a threat to alot of things mainly its a threat to anything it doesn't like.

As for Iraq with the strong resistance going on their you can bet they have a organized group ready to take control of the gov't. The Iraq gov't your referring to is only the one the US has set up and it makes sense they won't last without US support it'd be like cutting the strings off a puppet. As i said before there are already groups within Iraq organized enough to run a country its just the country that will be run won't be USA-Iraq it'll be just Iraq. The transition of power won't be clean we'll probably be looking at another couple years of civil warfare before its all settled but it wouldn't be any worse than what we've already done to the country....

[Reise]

@Vindicator

America isn't targeted as a symbol...with all this political jumbo your spouting off you should at least be aware of the US terrorist activities throughout the world and im not talking about ancient history i mean they are responsible for the death of MILLIONS of civilians foreign countries in attempts to over through or change their gov't in the last 50 years. America is targeted because its a threat to alot of things mainly its a threat to anything it doesn't like.

lol wut

[XemnasXD]

@Vindicator

America isn't targeted as a symbol...with all this political jumbo your spouting off you should at least be aware of the US terrorist activities throughout the world and im not talking about ancient history i mean they are responsible for the death of MILLIONS of civilians foreign countries in attempts to over through or change their gov't in the last 50 years. America is targeted because its a threat to alot of things mainly its a threat to anything it doesn't like.

lol wut

1. 1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator.
2. 1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.
3. 1963: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.
4. 1963-1975: American military kills 4 million people in Southeast Asia.
5. September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.
6. 1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.
7. 1980s: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.
8. 1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras." 30,000 Nicaraguans die.
9. 1982: U.S. provides billions of dollars in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.
10. 1983: The White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.
11. 1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S. invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties.
12. 1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from U.S.
13. 1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.
14. 1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.
15. 1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. U.N. estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.
16. 2000-2001: U.S. gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "aid."
17. Sept. 11, 2001: Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people.

The fastest example i could find can be lifted from the script for "Bowling for Columbine" theres alot more than these though. My dads church once had a service on the things like this the US was done and a packet was handed out detailing this sort of activity back into the 1800's....

[[AoW]ForLife]

Totally agree with Xemnas, though even that list doesn't cover everything that's happened in the last 80 years. Anyway, it's not just western society that is being targeted by terrorism.... ever heard of India vs. Pakistan?
edit: anyway nice thread this I'll check on it again tomorrow

[Reise]

Well if America is as bad as you say, makes me wonder why people flip about the Holocaust when according to your sources we've murdered plenty of people.

And they say we don't run the world.

I lol'd at some of those though. Such incredible things the people on the internet have you believing. I'll bet you believe Pearl Harbor was staged too?

[mike2007]

this is capitalist learn your government system before thinking you have freedom

capatilist is our market system, our government system is a democracy
get your facts straight before u think about posting

[JacksColon]

Ok, in keeping with the "getting way off topic trend" I'll throw my two cents in, AGAIN.

Bill Maher, love him or hate him, usually says exactly what needs to be said.

Click the link and you can skip forward a bit, about half way, to his final "New Rule" about fear.

http://onegoodmovemedia.org/movies/0710 ... wrules.mov

[Nuklear]

His new rule segment is always win.

[XemnasXD]

Well if America is as bad as you say, makes me wonder why people flip about the Holocaust when according to your sources we've murdered plenty of people.

And they say we don't run the world.

I lol'd at some of those though. Such incredible things the people on the internet have you believing. I'll bet you believe Pearl Harbor was staged too?

All those things are fact reise you can lol at them if you want but they were complied by reports taken thanks to the Freedom of Information Act. And no i don't think Pearl Harbor was staged i think (as does any crediable historian) that the US was asking for it and wanted Japan to launch an attack of that nature as an excuse to enter the war and rally the support of the American ppl.

[[AoW]ForLife]

Well if America is as bad as you say, makes me wonder why people flip about the Holocaust when according to your sources we've murdered plenty of people.

And they say we don't run the world.

I lol'd at some of those though. Such incredible things the people on the internet have you believing. I'll bet you believe Pearl Harbor was staged too?

We're not bad. We're just corrupt. And the most powerful nation in the world at the moment. It's not a good combination. P.S. My dad's been saying this (most of the stuff on Xemnas's list) since before I knew how to access the Internet.
Also, our ally in the "war on terror", leader of Pakistan, won power in a military coup in 1999. Many other things besides as well that the US has either encouraged or overlooked.

[Jstar1]

I don't get why europeans and asians think america is bad. America is a very good moral country, its the leadership that is screwing us up (aka george w bush)

yeah so stop bitching about americans, cause we saved the worlds ass twice

[TOloseGT]

yeah so stop bitching about americans, cause we saved the worlds ass twice

and u wonder why people don't like americans?

[Vindicator]

I don't get why europeans and asians think america is bad. America is a very good moral country, its the leadership that is screwing us up (aka george w bush)

yeah so stop bitching about americans, cause we saved the worlds ass twice

lol....no...we saved Europe and the world's democracies, but not the world. We "saved" the world from communism, but not really saved the world. Its all perspective. More importantly, we saved ourselves, thats why we did it. Saving Europe in WW2, defeating communism in the cold war, its all self preservation, and intrests. Yes America is big and powerful, but we get too involved. Your people are in civil war? screw you i say. Bitch and moan all the time, its time for the US to back off and let the world go on without us. Stop giving money to other countries, atm we need that money. a 9.17 trillion dollar debt wont fix itself, and investing in broken countries wont ever get money back. It may sound heartless, but screw the world, let them fend for themselves because everyone is fed up with "big brother."

[[AoW]ForLife]

I don't get why europeans and asians think america is bad. America is a very good moral country, its the leadership that is screwing us up (aka george w bush)

yeah so stop bitching about americans, cause we saved the worlds ass twice

...I'm American. Doesn't leadership define the country? Otherwise people are just people. Americans aren't different from Nigerians when it comes down to human nature. It's America as a NATION (not the individual people) that is being discussed.

[Reise]

Yes America is big and powerful, but we get too involved. Your people are in civil war? screw you i say. Bitch and moan all the time, its time for the US to back off and let the world go on without us. Stop giving money to other countries, atm we need that money. a 9.17 trillion dollar debt wont fix itself, and investing in broken countries wont ever get money back. It may sound heartless, but screw the world, let them fend for themselves because everyone is fed up with "big brother."

Friggin +1 especially to the bolded part.

If people are so damn sick of us then let's get the hell out of everyone's business and let them do whatever. We could sure as hell use the money and listening to people bitch at some other country for once would be nice.

[XemnasXD]

lmao look at the budget for the Federal Gov't...you'll see that most of the money well over is being spent WITHIN the US. not on foreign aid. You ppl are buying into that media hype again getting this illusion in your head that America is around the world saving ppl from death and feeding them everyday. They help out occasionally when an incidents big enough to make international news but it stops there.

[[AoW]ForLife]

lmao look at the budget for the Federal Gov't...you'll see that most of the money well over is being spent WITHIN the US. not on foreign aid. You ppl are buying into that media hype again getting this illusion in your head that America is around the world saving ppl from death and feeding them everyday. They help out occasionally when an incidents big enough to make international news but it stops there.

They're probably referring to the whole Iraq war in general. Now, whether that falls into the category of "spending 1.6 Tril at last estimate for helping" is up to debate.
Estimate includes Afghan war.

[JacksColon]

lmao look at the budget for the Federal Gov't...you'll see that most of the money well over is being spent WITHIN the US. not on foreign aid. You ppl are buying into that media hype again getting this illusion in your head that America is around the world saving ppl from death and feeding them everyday. They help out occasionally when an incidents big enough to make international news but it stops there.

Yes, a large portion of the budget is spent on internatl items, but by far and away the largest portion of the budget goes to military defense spending. $600 billion. I mean, c'mon!!!!!

[JacksColon]

The office I work for at UCF broght Ralph Nader in last week. I got to meet him and chat with him for a bit...awesome guy and super nice. Here is a bit of his speech. Near the end he really hits on the defense budget issue

http://youtube.com/watch?v=twIQLmYKVQs&feature=related

[Vindicator]

lmao look at the budget for the Federal Gov't...you'll see that most of the money well over is being spent WITHIN the US. not on foreign aid. You ppl are buying into that media hype again getting this illusion in your head that America is around the world saving ppl from death and feeding them everyday. They help out occasionally when an incidents big enough to make international news but it stops there.

Military spending budget, nuff said. It's foreign policy pressure. If you remember my military expenditures post from earlier in this thread, you would of known that. We still pay countries money back from the cold war when we started paying countries to "resist communism."
Genocide, civil war, dictatorships murdering their people, starving their people to death while they pursue nuclear technology. Screw them all right?

[XemnasXD]

lmao look at the budget for the Federal Gov't...you'll see that most of the money well over is being spent WITHIN the US. not on foreign aid. You ppl are buying into that media hype again getting this illusion in your head that America is around the world saving ppl from death and feeding them everyday. They help out occasionally when an incidents big enough to make international news but it stops there.

Military spending budget, nuff said. It's foreign policy pressure. If you remember my military expenditures post from earlier in this thread, you would of known that. We still pay countries money back from the cold war when we started paying countries to "resist communism."
Genocide, civil war, dictatorships murdering their people, starving their people to death while they pursue nuclear technology. Screw them all right?

Ppl are starving here. We drop bombs on hospitals and schools everyday over seas, lost at how many ppl die in the US every year cause they can't get medical coverage. Name one place that the US went into out of the kindness of its own heart that is now peaceful and glad to have them there. Don't confuse saving the Iraq ppl from Saddam with removing an enemy of the state and securing a strategic military position in the middle east. The US has done nothing to stop the Genocide in Darfur same thing with the Genocide in Rwanda. So who are we helping, what genocide are we stopping.....

[JacksColon]

lmao look at the budget for the Federal Gov't...you'll see that most of the money well over is being spent WITHIN the US. not on foreign aid. You ppl are buying into that media hype again getting this illusion in your head that America is around the world saving ppl from death and feeding them everyday. They help out occasionally when an incidents big enough to make international news but it stops there.

Military spending budget, nuff said. It's foreign policy pressure. If you remember my military expenditures post from earlier in this thread, you would of known that. We still pay countries money back from the cold war when we started paying countries to "resist communism."
Genocide, civil war, dictatorships murdering their people, starving their people to death while they pursue nuclear technology. Screw them all right?

Ppl are starving here. We drop bombs on hospitals and schools everyday over seas, lost at how many ppl die in the US every year cause they can't get medical coverage. Name one place that the US went into out of the kindness of its own heart that is now peaceful and glad to have them there. Don't confuse saving the Iraq ppl from Saddam with removing an enemy of the state and securing a strategic military position in the middle east. The US has done nothing to stop the Genocide in Darfur same thing with the Genocide in Rwanda. So who are we helping, what genocide are we stopping.....

I aggree with you Xemmas, but I think you're contradicting yourself. You originally said that most of the money this government spends, it does so WITHIN the country, but then you say that we bomb places and kill people overseas while our own are starving and do not have health care. So, yea, I agree, but we just had issue with you saying that our budget gets spend mostly internally, when with over a half-trillion dollar defense budget, is not the case

[XemnasXD]

lmao look at the budget for the Federal Gov't...you'll see that most of the money well over is being spent WITHIN the US. not on foreign aid. You ppl are buying into that media hype again getting this illusion in your head that America is around the world saving ppl from death and feeding them everyday. They help out occasionally when an incidents big enough to make international news but it stops there.

Military spending budget, nuff said. It's foreign policy pressure. If you remember my military expenditures post from earlier in this thread, you would of known that. We still pay countries money back from the cold war when we started paying countries to "resist communism."
Genocide, civil war, dictatorships murdering their people, starving their people to death while they pursue nuclear technology. Screw them all right?

Ppl are starving here. We drop bombs on hospitals and schools everyday over seas, lost at how many ppl die in the US every year cause they can't get medical coverage. Name one place that the US went into out of the kindness of its own heart that is now peaceful and glad to have them there. Don't confuse saving the Iraq ppl from Saddam with removing an enemy of the state and securing a strategic military position in the middle east. The US has done nothing to stop the Genocide in Darfur same thing with the Genocide in Rwanda. So who are we helping, what genocide are we stopping.....

I aggree with you Xemmas, but I think you're contradicting yourself. You originally said that most of the money this government spends, it does so WITHIN the country, but then you say that we bomb places and kill people overseas while our own are starving and do not have health care. So, yea, I agree, but we just had issue with you saying that our budget gets spend mostly internally, when with over a half-trillion dollar defense budget, is not the case

i count military spending as money spent within the country because most of its for our "Self-Defense" When ppl talk about money spent outside the country i count that as all the money the US gives away with no strings attached meaning they won't be directly controlling how its spent. Like when we sent aid (however little it was) to the victims of the tsunamis in SE Asia. The military budget is still being spent on the US even if its spent on the US in another country....

[StuckUP]

I don't get why europeans and asians think america is bad. America is a very good moral country, its the leadership that is screwing us up (aka george w bush)

yeah so stop bitching about americans, cause we saved the worlds ass twice

Lol....look into America's history some more. I am a person of history and i can tell you right now more than 50 acts of atrocities of the top of my head. America isn't the great country you think it is, in fact as we speak America is being destoyed from the inside out. And no it isn't the fault of Bush but this has been going on for more than a 100 years. I live in America with american citizenship and both my parents are American, but I don't consider myself as an American because America is a country of lies, corruption, and hypocrisy. All you patriots don't try to argue with me because I know what I'm talking about.

[Crumpets]

http://votewritein.blogspot.com/2007/11 ... mpany.html



Sad sad day for all Ron Paul supporters.