TOPIC CLOSED

glavie · Post by **glavie** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:06 pm

Im not expecting them to do anything. I am just asking for your help. If you can actually search and find nothing then thats ok.

I don't expect you to prove anything either.(especially if you can't find anything lol)

I am sure if there were lawsuits there are public documentation, probably on the internet. Probably not in english.

I also don't expect people to take my word. I always try to back up my statements with logical reasoning, it is very difficult in this situation though.

Fuhito · Post by **Fuhito** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:24 pm

glavie wrote:Im not expecting them to do anything. I am just asking for your help. If you can actually search and find nothing then thats ok.

I don't expect you to prove anything either.(especially if you can't find anything lol)

I am sure if there were lawsuits there are public documentation, probably on the internet. Probably not in english.

I also don't expect people to take my word. I always try to back up my statements with logical reasoning, it is very difficult in this situation though.

You're right. The 12 GMs in California could totally keep watch on bots 24/7 on 24 servers and cater to 72,000+ people from all around the world while doing the office jobs they were hired for. They just choose not to and instead conspire against us and profit from it. Logical reasoning?

How do you expect me to prove that Joymax didn't support that website when you can't even prove that the lawsuit even happened?

glavie · Post by **glavie** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:59 pm

Sorry for not being clear. I was asking Dian Jie, he said he spoke chinese and korean(hopefully can read it as well)

When I try to research it I get to what I think is the mother company and then guess what.... Its not in English anymore.

Anyway, either today or tomorrow I might be in contact with the person who gave me this "crazy conspiracy theory". I will ask him if I can post the chat message where he mentioned this.

Oh and I checked what he wrote, he stated that the lawsuit against Powerlevel.com was in Jan 2007. Of course it isn't that simple since it was against the company that copyrighted that name etc.....

BTW sorry for hijacking your thread, but I thought this kinda tied in nicely with how they changed the wording in their documents.

EDIT*
I am not trying to persuade you, I am not trying to reason or argue with you. I simply heard something that I want to look into further but can't because of a language barrier.
If no one can/will help I won't bother posting in this thread anymore. If people are interested let me know, either post here or PM me.

Barotix · Post by **Barotix** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:11 pm

Cruor wrote:See section 5.2 of the Operation Policy.

Operation Policy wrote:5.2 Users found to be using or distributing illegal programs may be subject to restrictions of their account or have their account deleted. In particular cases, the user may be subject to investigation by the proper authorities.

Cruor in most cases when you make a post its over, no more to post; because in most cases we are not dealing with joymax themselves, but with some other form of legitamcy. This time that is not the case, in the Joymax Operation policy they directly contradict themselves; first they post the vauge [sp] 5.2 which is left open for interpretation, then further down in section 8.1 they overide 5.2 by; stating specifically what you can be banned for, and for how long. There is nothing regarding the use of 3rd party applications.

sama98b · Post by **sama98b** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:01 pm

Ksro : exploited the game for 4 weeks straight, faced a GM, got kicked offline, still playing same accounts

So what do you expect in isro then

ps.:isro, as it looks botting is legal ..., no banns for like 4 month now ?

mosiac · Post by **mosiac** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:10 pm

and when we did have bans, the majority of bannee's were either gold bots or the rare occasional playerbot.

sama98b · Post by **sama98b** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:18 pm

mosiac wrote:and when we did have bans, the majority of bannee's were either gold bots or the rare occasional playerbot.

At this point would be happy to see even goldbots banned.
It's so long since jm did anything on this matter.

blader3 · Post by **blader3** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:30 pm

I think joymax realized that nobody who isn't addicted to this game would make it to the final cap without botting so they just allowed it lol

XCaosX · Post by **XCaosX** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:46 pm

blader3 wrote:I think joymax realized that nobody who isn't addicted to this game would make it to the final cap without botting so they just allowed it lol

it's not about addiction,it's about fair and not fair...botting isn't fair.

A player who PLAY all 80 lvl's is sure a better player than one that BOT 80 lvl's.
JM should ban them all,or at least give an advantage to LEGIT players,like more chance to drop or other things,because they know who bot and who don't.

XxXAndrewXxX · Post by **XxXAndrewXxX** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:12 am

"5.2 Users found to be using or distributing illegal programs may be subject to restrictions of their account or have their account deleted. In particular cases, the user may be subject to investigation by the proper authorities."

Joymax Operation Policy - Link

Barotix · Post by **Barotix** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:14 am

XxXAndrewXxX wrote:"5.2 Users found to be using or distributing illegal programs may be subject to restrictions of their account or have their account deleted. In particular cases, the user may be subject to investigation by the proper authorities."

Joymax Operation Policy - Link

read the original post article 8.1 directly conflicts with article 5.2

XxXAndrewXxX · Post by **XxXAndrewXxX** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:22 am

How does it contradict itself? I'm confused..
5.1 already says the possible penalties so even though it's not in 8.1.. it doesn't matter.

139022 · Post by **139022** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:25 am

dude, noone cares

Necro-Mage · Post by **Necro-Mage** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:04 am

139022 wrote:dude, noone cares

Look at everyone who posted before you. A lot of them seemed to care.

jabbers · Post by **jabbers** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 5:30 am

who wants to talk about botting v.s powerleveling now? :roll:

I wonder if the TOS on the KSRO website is the same as this one, if I could read korean I'd go look !

UniQ · Post by **UniQ** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:49 pm

this is just like a mmo FPS which allows ppl to use wallhack and aimbot...

vindicated01 · Post by **vindicated01** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:09 pm

legal or not legal itsssssss the sameeee

Matrixman__ · Post by **Matrixman__** » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:40 pm

Barotix wrote:
Cruor wrote:See section 5.2 of the Operation Policy.

Operation Policy wrote:5.2 Users found to be using or distributing illegal programs may be subject to restrictions of their account or have their account deleted. In particular cases, the user may be subject to investigation by the proper authorities.

Cruor in most cases when you make a post its over, no more to post; because in most cases we are not dealing with joymax themselves, but with some other form of legitamcy. This time that is not the case, in the Joymax Operation policy they directly contradict themselves; first they post the vauge [sp] 5.2 which is left open for interpretation, then further down in section 8.1 they overide 5.2 by; stating specifically what you can be banned for, and for how long. There is nothing regarding the use of 3rd party applications.

it says users found to be using or distributing illegal programs, are bot programs illegal, no, and joymax doesnt say anywhere in its TOS that such programs are deemed illegal to use with their software...so again, its all left to interpretation

ping_lo · Post by **ping_lo** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:40 am

Barotix wrote:
XxXAndrewXxX wrote:"5.2 Users found to be using or distributing illegal programs may be subject to restrictions of their account or have their account deleted. In particular cases, the user may be subject to investigation by the proper authorities."

Joymax Operation Policy - Link

read the original post article 8.1 directly conflicts with article 5.2

It only conflicts if you do not know what it says. They in fact do not conflict. 5.2 is about 3rd party programs item duping, botting, and the like. 8.1 reiterates but is not limited to 5.2 and covers situations with not involving 3rd party programs but regarding player conduct and interaction.

The reason for the less specific language may not have conspiratory overtones either. From a legal standpoint it is more correct. Because no matter how much we whine about botting it is only one of many 3rd party programs. By making the clause more vague they are keeping it more universal. If it were bot this and bot that then someone might sucessfully argue the clause didn't cover things other than botting. Unless of course joymax then went into detail on each and every individual possibility of 3rd party programs. Contracts and TOS are hard enough to read as is. Especially considering the reading level and comprehension of the average american etc. The last thing we need is a longer one with more legaleese to parse. Short sweet and open is fine. All that is required is enforcement.

casqueda · Post by **casqueda** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:48 am

LBootsie · Post by **LBootsie** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:38 pm

@NB, its not a conspiracy theory at least you had to have read the original ToS [which i hope some1 has saved on thier comp]

Does anyone actually read to ToS or just skim through..

PiiNoY · Post by **PiiNoY** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:40 pm

I didnt read one bit of it should make it shorter. ^^

Legionx · Post by **Legionx** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:11 pm

Frankly, Barotix, I think you misread some of the parts in the ToS. Let me try and clear it for you:

9. User shall not complain of problems that arise due to use of other software not by the Company in conjunction with the Company’s software.

This might also include players complaining about bots, spambots, goldbots and any other type of cheating or illegal activity done by a 3rd party program. In my eyes though, what they tried to say in this section is that a user can't complain regarding any kind of problem that arises from USING a 3rd party software (ex: being hacked after downloading a bot that turns out to be a key logger!).

9. Company has no responsibility to mediate between conflicts that arise between users or between the user and a 3rd party service or any responsibility toward any compensation for any problems that arise because of this.

Doh, I totally support this! Why would they want to help a player get the gold he bought from bots?! I'd ban anyone who tells them through official means that he bought gold.

5.2 Users found to be using or distributing illegal programs may be subject to restrictions of their account or have their account deleted. In particular cases, the user may be subject to investigation by the proper authorities.

And of course the lawsuit rights that they reserve - they reserve the right to sue anyone who distributes illegal programs or perform any kind of in-game punishment on him.

I don't think the changes in the ToS really makes "botting legal" as the title of the post says. You just fit their ToS to the accusations that they support botting (from their lack of action, no argue there) and blame them for it.

Just my 2 cents,
Legionx.

Barotix · Post by **Barotix** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:17 am

Response to:

"5.2 Users found to be using or distributing illegal programs may be subject to restrictions of their account or have their account deleted. In particular cases, the user may be subject to investigation by the proper authorities."

Joymax Operation Policy - Link

It only conflicts if you do not know what it says. They in fact do not conflict. 5.2 is about 3rd party programs item duping, botting, and the like. 8.1 reiterates but is not limited to 5.2 and covers situations with not involving 3rd party programs but regarding player conduct and interaction.

The reason for the less specific language may not have conspiratory overtones either. From a legal standpoint it is more correct. Because no matter how much we whine about botting it is only one of many 3rd party programs. By making the clause more vague they are keeping it more universal. If it were bot this and bot that then someone might sucessfully argue the clause didn't cover things other than botting. Unless of course joymax then went into detail on each and every individual possibility of 3rd party programs. Contracts and TOS are hard enough to read as is. Especially considering the reading level and comprehension of the average american etc. The last thing we need is a longer one with more legaleese to parse. Short sweet and open is fine. All that is required is enforcement.

And of course the lawsuit rights that they reserve - they reserve the right to sue anyone who distributes illegal programs or perform any kind of in-game punishment on him.

I don't think the changes in the ToS really makes "botting legal" as the title of the post says. You just fit their ToS to the accusations that they support botting (from their lack of action, no argue there) and blame them for it.

Just my 2 cents,
Legionx.

The section regarding botting [section 3 of chapter 2] has been deleted; notice 2 jumps directly to 4. Another thing, Joymax themselves has broken thier own ToS by; editing the ToS without informing the isro community which is cleary stated they wouldnt do in the first quote on my first post. section 5.2 may say illegal applications, but because of their lack of operational definitons [as is neccesary on any legal document] it is unclear exactly what illegal stands for.

it says users found to be using or distributing illegal programs, are bot programs illegal, no, and joymax doesnt say anywhere in its TOS that such programs are deemed illegal to use with their software...so again, its all left to interpretation

And lastly in section 8.1 of the operation policy of joymax it cleary states what and why you can be banned. there is nothing regarding the use of illegal applications which may i add have yet to be defined as 3rd party applications such as the white finger

so lets recap:
1] section 5.2 says illegal but fails to define said term
2] section 8.1 then takes the liberty to specify what you can be banned for, but fails to mention the application of 3rd party software.
3] joymax or the company has removed a vital section from a legal document without informing their users of such a change. it is cleraly stated that they will inform us of all changes to the TOS, they FAILED to inform us of deleting the part regarding how bots would be dealed with.

4] therefore the only conclusion one can arive 2 is that joymax by using under handed tactics and to preserve w/e dignity they may have left secretly removed any and all articles regarding the use of 3rd party applications; at the same time they fail to define illegal applications as 3RD party software/applications.

also the only one who can clear the air now, and fix the current anarchy is joymax themselves. Joymax is the only one who can tell us what is illegal and what isnt, but because they eliminated the part [section 3 of chapter 2 or 2.3 of the Tos] refering to bots and sofmod etc which were, at that time, cleary defined as illegal.

5] so what is the conclusion? well since they no longer define 3rd party sotware as illegal you cant according to that ToS which we all signed and hopefully read define botting as illegal; Therefore because of a serious lack of concrete explanations botting is legal Until Joymax reinstates section 2.3 of thier ToS, or bans a bot; i aint trying to log into a game where bots may do as they wish because of a korean companies hypocrisy.

This might also include players complaining about bots, spambots, goldbots and any other type of cheating or illegal activity done by a 3rd party program. In my eyes though, what they tried to say in this section is that a user can't complain regarding any kind of problem that arises from USING a 3rd party software (ex: being hacked after downloading a bot that turns out to be a key logger!).

i agree with this 100%

[quotre]Doh, I totally support this! Why would they want to help a player get the gold he bought from bots?! I'd ban anyone who tells them through official means that he bought gold.

[/quote]
i also agree with this part as well
as i type this im sending an email to joymax informing them on what i find to be gross stupidity on thier part, as well as, a well stated thesis on why they should define illegal applications

- Barotix

***************************************************************************************************************************************************************
i told myself i wouldnt post in this thread, but my bro convinced me i left to much stuff in the air and as an srfer i must at all cost finish what i started + i love debates.

Nantosh · Post by **Nantosh** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:03 am

Wow, I just realised that they can ban your account no matter what if you haven't been on it in a year.....> >

Kaigar · Post by **Kaigar** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:50 am

JOYMAX.COM Service Agreement wrote:5.2 Users found to be using or distributing illegal programs may be subject to restrictions of their account or have their account deleted. In particular cases, the user may be subject to investigation by the proper authorities.

[...]

6. User shall not violate other people's rights by using the services in violation of the public peace and morality.

I think it's been left very open ended, they've left it so that they can get away with not banning botters but they still have the power to do it if they want to.

It really depends on the interpretation of "the public peace and morality" and "illegal programs".

By the way, I'm not sure that they did change the agreement without notifying us, we all had to agree to this service agreement when we integrated our accounts with Joymax.com didn't we? That is, unless the change was made before that time.

MrBow · Post by **MrBow** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:22 pm

Fuhito wrote:
glavie wrote:This makes a lot of sense. I found out recently that joymax actually actively helps isro bot and 1 other pay to use bot.(sorry forgot the name) They help as in send them updates. This is also true with Powerlevel.com and atleast 1 other major gold bot companies.

In return they get a % of revenue (kick back). Those bots do not get banned.
Only non paying bot companies get banned.

This change allows them at will to pick and choose who they ban and there can be no real legal action to combat it.

I did not post earlier because I have no way to prove it. But the information came from a trusted friend whose relative actually worked for joymax.

Perhaps if anyone knows korean I can get more details to help them verify the information.

Bullshit. The company is not corrupt

Sup

So how do you explain this?

from: http://www.thepowerlevel.com/Service.php?M=Silkroad
Now you can buy silk on internet server for silkroad online from JOYMAX company through Thepowerlevel company . The price is 12USD for 100silk .
If you need this service please contact our customer service on livechat .
PS: This service is only supported by Western union and Moneybookers payment methods .

Have a nice day

PS: i do not support bots/goldbuyers/powerleveling by bots/etc.........
Just stating facts.

MrBow · Post by **MrBow** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:31 pm

^ bump

glavie · Post by **glavie** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:25 pm

Thanks Mr Bow.

I do have a pretty good bullshit detector, and I believe there is a lot of truth to what I posted earlier.

So How can they provide silk for you without joymax being directly involved? Im not being aggressive, so for **** sakes the people who gave me a hard time dont get all defensive.

I want to get to the bottom of this. How could they provide this service?

When I buy gold I use paypal. With paypal you have to enter a credit card number or have an account set up correct? If powerlvl used paypal could there 1 account buy many people silk? Didn't joymax say they were limiting that very thing to reduce fraud? Sorry I don't remember the details. However it doesn't seem likely that it would work with paypal.

Anyone know about other ways of paying joymax, perhaps more anonymous?

Fuhito · Post by **Fuhito** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:56 pm

MrBow wrote:
Sup So how do you explain this?

from: http://www.thepowerlevel.com/Service.php?M=Silkroad
Now you can buy silk on internet server for silkroad online from JOYMAX company through Thepowerlevel company . The price is 12USD for 100silk .
If you need this service please contact our customer service on livechat .
PS: This service is only supported by Western union and Moneybookers payment methods .

Good luck with that.

It would seem that the site is just logging onto your account and buying silk for people who can only send cash without credit cards through Western Union or use MoneyBookers which last I checked doesn't require a linked bank account to do everything like Paypal and MoneyBookers is not supported by Joymax.

Also note $12 for 100 silks. Joymax jokes aside, NO COMPANY would let someone else profit like that.