Cleric- Better off hybrid?

[Bobby_Rock]

Well, I've been lurking in this forum for a LONG time, reading posts, and finally I had a thought and just HAD to register.

Let me start of by saying-
I have NO intention of EVER being a cleric.

But I got to thinking, and since cleric's heal absolute, do they REALLY need to be pure int? Wouldn't it make more sense to be a 1:2 hybrid in INT favor? That way, they still have the mana needed to mass heal, but they can also take a small bit of damage, and still dish some out. I have seen countless parties set back 5 minutes or so because their cleric(s) were pure int and couldn't take a beating, even in light armour. I figure that clerics who are 1:2 would be better off as when their party dies, they have enough time to get a tank back up to take whatever is aggroing them.

Please, discuss and tell why you agree/disagree.

[Biscuit]

Well, I've been lurking in this forum for a LONG time, reading posts, and finally I had a thought and just HAD to register.

[...]

I shall mark that day in my calender and expect to hear from you again in a LONG time.

[...]

Let me start of by saying-
I have NO intention of EVER being a cleric.

But I got to thinking, and since cleric's heal absolute, do they REALLY need to be pure int? Wouldn't it make more sense to be a 1:2 hybrid in INT favor? That way, they still have the mana needed to mass heal, but they can also take a small bit of damage, and still dish some out. I have seen countless parties set back 5 minutes or so because their cleric(s) were pure int and couldn't take a beating, even in light armour. I figure that clerics who are 1:2 would be better off as when their party dies, they have enough time to get a tank back up to take whatever is aggroing them.

Please, discuss and tell why you agree/disagree.

I agree with you on all points and at least some of the cleric players I have met do as well. I am currently saving one stat point every level to check out if my mana supplies are and stay sufficient to do my job. So far I didn't have any issues with lack of mana. I'll have to see if I go 2:1 or 5:1 in the future.

[Bobby_Rock]

I've wanted to post a reply to something everytime I read browse, but I didn't bother registering because somebody else had already said whatever I needed to say equally as well or better. But I shall be posting frequently now that I can post.

I am honored to be on your calender


I look foward to your input on this subject, as many of my cleric friends pm me asking whether they should put points into str because they're dying so much. I wouldn't answer yes or no, because I am unsure whether it's a good idea or not. But I feel it is. So when you come to your conclusion, please, let me know

[Drageath]

It might be worth investigating into wat kind of int - str balance would be best to allow survivability and enough mp to be able to cast whenever needed. Clerics are obviously not dmg dealers but they do have offensive magic spells so being hybrided would greatly affect the dmg on these but don't clerics have absoloute dmg spells too? Another idea would be a pure str cleric with a full time bard buddy and I can't really see that working.

[Bobby_Rock]

It might be worth investigating into wat kind of int - str balance would be best to allow survivability and enough mp to be able to cast whenever needed. Clerics are obviously not dmg dealers but they do have offensive magic spells so being hybrided would greatly affect the dmg on these but don't clerics have absoloute dmg spells too? Another idea would be a pure str cleric with a full time bard buddy and I can't really see that working.

Yea, a pure str cleric would be a big no no.

Another option is to go 1:8 in favor of int, but keep your Warrior Mastery equal to your cleric mastery and wear heavy armour, but still have lots of mp, and have a bit more str.

[Biscuit]

Does anyone know what builds are used in kSRO? My korean is still far from being good enough to find out myself. There must be some compromise for damage dealing (a cleric has one of the most potent offensive skills in damage output after all) and survivability in PVM and jobbing.

[Phortex]

They only die quickly to physical damage, and because they dont have a good warrior with them, i play a cleric, and am full int. i only die when i solo or lagg, with pure int build we take very very low magical damage (i think when fighting some lvl 16 flying serpants (i was lvl 17 at the time) i was taking less than 10dmg from their magical hits (the warrior i was with was taking about 70 from the same attacks). also warriors have a taunt, learn to use this and its never an issue, if your clerics are dying then its likely that its your warrior that is the problem (or your stupid AOE nuking mage who doesnt quite understand how groups work).

[Bobby_Rock]

They only die quickly to physical damage, and because they dont have a good warrior with them, i play a cleric, and am full int. i only die when i solo or lagg, with pure int build we take very very low magical damage (i think when fighting some lvl 16 flying serpants (i was lvl 17 at the time) i was taking less than 10dmg from their magical hits (the warrior i was with was taking about 70 from the same attacks). also warriors have a taunt, learn to use this and its never an issue, if your clerics are dying then its likely that its your warrior that is the problem (or your stupid AOE nuking mage who doesnt quite understand how groups work).

I know you read my thread, but I really don't see the point here. Any pure int is going to die quickly to physical damage, and survive magical.

I'm talking for guild wars and stuff towards endgame. Clerics will be the FIRST thing anybody targets. They're going to need some HP, or they will NOT do very well at all.

Also, crabs = cleric's hell. With all the multi-hitting attacks monsters use, cleric's with really need more hp. They tend to draw aggro before the warrior has a chance to get close to the monster. This brings whatever the warrior just taunted right next to you, and when they start using AOE, you'll be in a world of hurt.
Punishers (centaurs) are a prime example. My cleric has died 10 times before because he would always fire off a heal before the warrior had a chance to actually hit the monsters, and heals DO pull aggro. So now the cleric (who usually won't move) is right next to a warrior, who is taking 200 damage with full defensive buffs on. And Punishers DO have AOE, so our cleric would die in maybe 4-5 hits.

In the end, I think the power is a worthwhile sacrifice so clerics can survive.

[Phortex]

Well end game guild wars etc, have 2:1 split isnt going to make much difference, 2 nukes form a wizard will still bring them down in a blink of an eye, in terms of multi attack mobs, yes these can be a pain, but then i got to wonder why your standing next to it, i am aware of heals pulling aggro, but the war should pull, you should stand at max range and be fine, if not then get a wizard in your grp as well to use frost atks on mobs to slow them down. I still dont understand (apart from in pvp where it wont make much difference) why you are getting hit, its bad play, judge your heals dont spam heal and adapt to the situation, also if you have the problem where both you and warrior are taking damage then use the spell 9cant remember whats its called, but get it at lvl 20 i think) which heals target and lowest hp ember of party, this is an amazing spell for keeping your warrior alive and healing youself if you do take some damage.

[Bobby_Rock]

First of all, I am not getting hit anything I can't handle, mainly because I'm a rogue, not a cleric.

And as far as end game nukers, that's the point. It will take TWO nukes to bring you down if you have more hp, trust me, it makes a TON of difference. If you go pure int, you will have almost no hp, and tons of mana you won't be able to use because a nuker can one hit you. However, if they only get one nuke off, and you survive, then they're finished because that's all they'll have time to fire off. And as far as aoe mobs, most clerics are barely paying attention when they start getting aoe'd, because by then they've got a warrior soloing a party mob, and some jackass wizard trying to tank a champion party mob. Clerics will be WAY to busy healing to run away from mobs that are aoe'ing them.

I still don't understand why clerics NEED that much mana. It's not going to do them ANY good if they keep dying. And as far as "well with the potion delay, you need all the mana you can get."

Well first of all, I have tested it, and with my wizard, I used the most mp consuming spells in quick relay, and even with small potions, I had plenty of mana to spare.

Also, things don't always go as planned unfortunately and sometimes that 500 extra hp will save your entire party from being obliterated.

Edit-
Fixed a few spelling errors.
Removed a rather rude quotation mark placement, I am very sorry, I shouldn't have put it there.

[Phortex]

ok, firstly, i tried to ignore this point but as you said you dont play a cleric, so i do feel this underminds your arguments. but ill continue to overlook this for now.

1) 2 nukers to take em down if i go 2:1 split; well that was justa guess if damage continues to scale as it does now it is wrong and 1 nuker will still be able to 1 hit KO a cleric, as they at my level do 150% dmg on their big nukes., plus even if it does take 2 it not any difference to having 1 take you down to 305 becasue when that does happen you focus your heals on yourself (you are the most important person in the grp) and so your role as grp healer is useless anyway.

2) Your poitn about AoE is not about cleric swith out hp, its about ppl not knowing how to grp and how to play (i have been playing squishy healers in mmorpgs for over 4 years now, and trust me you learn how to watch your own hp and everyone elses and you move)...again this is down to players ineptness not cleric health points

3) why do i need that much mana? simple for the unexpected and the unplanned as you said below, and so i dont have to sit down every 30 seconds, i use a full bar on mana keeping a 8man party up when they pull stupidly, ironically if i knew the warrior could always hold aggro and mobs were pulled nicly and lined up then i woul be more inclined to go 2:1 but because as you said sometimes that doesnt happen you want the extra mana, because lets face it as a healer (where you are repsonable for keeping the group alive) when the S*** hits the fan id alway choose to have extra MP over extra HP because i cant do my job if i run out of MP and yes it does happen.

4) our heals are not int dependant, however our other atks (apart form overheal) are, and i do sometimes like to do dmg, and quite frankly i like the fact that being pure int i see my suto atk doing more dmg than any other classes auto atk because of it.

Going 2:1 may save your own life a few times, but it will cost your party and your abilites dearly as a result.

[Skilly]

Pure int all the way on cleric because u can heal so t don't matter if u have low hp

[Disconn3cted]

Pure int all the way on cleric because u can heal so t don't matter if u have low hp

the heal is a based on a constant value and its a better to have a cleric spamming mp pots (which they wont be doing because the skill cost few mp) then a dead cleric

[Bobby_Rock]

Skilly, did you actually read the post?

First off, if you're fighting later level mobs, (namely, when you get to 30+), Clerics will have a hard, hard time. The mobs can easily 1 hit a pure int, so if that cleric happens to accidently aggro a mob, said cleric is pretty much screwed over. It doesn't matter how many times you heal yourself if the mob is hitting you for 1k+ without crits. And once again, at endgame, clerics will be high priority in guild wars, so they'll NEED hp. With rogues sneaking around and wizards blasting everything they see, most pure int won't survive long at all, no matter how well protected.

Besides, you don't NEED pure int cause the heals are absolute. And clerics won't be doing much attacking anyways if they're pure int cause they can get one hit. I saw a level 30 warrior taking 500 damage from a mob one level below him, and he was dual axe. That would slice a cleric in half, because that cleric would have almost no physical defence.


Thanks disconnected, I wasn't sure how much mp clerics used so I couldn't use that in my arguements, now I can

[Phortex]

with a 20sec pot delay the notion of "spamming" mp pots is a joke, you cant use mp pots as an excuse for not having MP, iadmit that skillys comment doesnt add anything but still.

you keep going to guild wars. Which untill one hits a high enough lvl i cant comment on, however we will always be targeted first, and we will be killed in about 1 second flat... that would eb the case even if we were pure str (it would just take more ppl to do it). in this case clerics may as well just use there suicide move (which is the most powerful move in the game and is int dependant, so a pure int clerci will be able to 1 hit any char in the game, if you have enough clerics they could beat any one

i still maintain that going 2:1 is a waste... if your taking damage your doing somthing wrong, or your warrior is. (they should have a 35% dmg reduction buff up if they are tanking)

[Bobby_Rock]

with a 20sec pot delay the notion of "spamming" mp pots is a joke, you cant use mp pots as an excuse for not having MP, iadmit that skillys comment doesnt add anything but still.

you keep going to guild wars. Which untill one hits a high enough lvl i cant comment on, however we will always be targeted first, and we will be killed in about 1 second flat... that would eb the case even if we were pure str (it would just take more ppl to do it). in this case clerics may as well just use there suicide move (which is the most powerful move in the game and is int dependant, so a pure int clerci will be able to 1 hit any char in the game, if you have enough clerics they could beat any one

Well... you got me there. That's where my lack of knowledge about clerics shows, so I can't argue this point.

i still maintain that going 2:1 is a waste... if your taking damage your doing somthing wrong, or your warrior is. (they should have a 35% dmg reduction buff up if they are tanking)

I can argue this one though YIPEE!

Once again, sometimes things DO go wrong, and cleric's end up with a champion party mob on them while the tanks are distracted. (Jackass mages + life control + critical hit = dead jackass mage, and jackass mages usually stand beside clerics)

[Phortex]

ok, this is somthing that is unavoidable (its a law of nature that all mages will ignore what the tank is doing and fight their own abbttle, and will wipe grps).

However what you can do is a not take mages, yes you loose a lot of dmg, but hey you will live, bring a rouge and damage dealing warrior, and you will be happy... if you do have to bring a mage (maybe you are married to one... or want to be) then force them to use their ice attacks, these are the best moves for grps anyway as they add some control, plus being the lowest dmg they have least chnace of stealing aggro....


One last trick. Have an spare tank, who sole job it is to keep you alive, he is not allowed to do anything apart for taunt mobs of you... this is a hasle, but can help. if your having problems...

But if you ditch the mage you should be ok.

[Zen]

learn how to use your heals o0
using group heal will make any mobs around you agro, clerics have a arsinal of buffs/heals, learn to use them in the right situations and theres no need to add str, adding str would make a suk cleric in my opinion, you would need a bard with you at all times to mana regen you, or youd have to mana buff yourself, which can be deadly switching weps to buff yourself, that one or 2 secs can mean the death of your tanks,

[Disconn3cted]

you wont run out of mp as a hybrid cleric unless you added A LOT of points int str

i think 4:1 hybrid cleric would be better than pure int since you wont die when the mobs get to you (which they will its unavoidable) and you might still have enough hp after pure sacrifice to not die in 1 hit


but you will have to set mp higher on autopot and use more mp pots

[Da_Realest]

Yes, you need to be pure int. There will be times where you can attack also. Your basic form of attack is int based. You shouldn't be taking much damage anyway. A warrior's damage absorb buff, a bards damage absorb buff, warlock buff that can stun someone each time they attack you, a rogue's skill that forces the opponent to target you to divert their attention, and a wizard buff that can absorb 46% of the damage done.

What if all of the above fail? You got a buff that regenerates hp overtime and Bless Spell pretty much makes you invincible for 15 secs. During that time you can get somewhere safe or res the whole party simultaneously with Group Reverse. And if somehow that doesn't work you can use your last resort, Pure Offering. Being pure int, this attack pretty much guarantees the death of anyone attacking you.

I don't understand about the taking much damage thing. I have a pure int euro character in a robe with a shield and white str mobs a few levels lower than me do only about 20% of my hp in one attack. Not to mention that I can block. This should be even less for Clerics in light armor.

I spam heal all the time. I rarely run out. If I do, there is a bard in the party or I can use vigor grains which restore 25% mp and hp and only have a 4 sec delay.

[Bobby_Rock]

1. Yes, you need to be pure int. There will be times where you can attack also. Your basic form of attack is int based. You shouldn't be taking much damage anyway. A warrior's damage absorb buff, a bards damage absorb buff, warlock buff that can stun someone each time they attack you, a rogue's skill that forces the opponent to target you to divert their attention, and a wizard buff that can absorb 46% of the damage done.

2. What if all of the above fail? You got a buff that regenerates hp overtime and Bless Spell pretty much makes you invincible for 15 secs. During that time you can get somewhere safe or res the whole party simultaneously with Group Reverse. And if somehow that doesn't work you can use your last resort, Pure Offering. Being pure int, this attack pretty much guarantees the death of anyone attacking you.

3. I don't understand about the taking much damage thing. I have a pure int euro character in a robe with a shield and white str mobs a few levels lower than me do only about 20% of my hp in one attack. Not to mention that I can block. This should be even less for Clerics in light armor.

4. I spam heal all the time. I rarely run out. If I do, there is a bard in the party or I can use vigor grains which restore 25% mp and hp and only have a 4 sec delay.

Your post offers support to both sides, whether you intended it or not.
I numbered your paragraphs help people understand which paragraphs I responded to.

1. Yes, all the classes can do this, but this paragraph's main point is in the next paragraph so

2. Yes you have all these buffs, to cast on teamates, or yourself. But the chance you're going to get the pursuers off of your back in 15 seconds, and still be close enough to ressurect your party is zero, unless the rogue survives and casts Gross Scorn.

3. We're talking about mobs a few levels higher than you. I can take on level 30's with a team of 24-26 people. Yes, clerics can block, but they'll need to block every other hit to survive if they're pure intellegence, even if they were wearing light armour.

4. This one kind of supports my side. Yes, Cleric's can spam heal without EVER running out of mana. Even if a cleric was pure strength, they could spam away without running out of mana.

Is Pure Sacrifice an instant cast or does it require a charge? If it does, the chances you'll be able to fire one off are very very slim if you have 2-3 people attacking you. It's better to sacrifice some damage and actually DO damage than to not do damage at all.

__________________________________________

Thanks Disconn3cted

Zen, ANY heal will make a mob aggro you if it's close enough to the person you heal. And usually the people that need healing have two mobs beside them...

Phortex, Lightning is actually the weakest in Euro, but it has super aoe, so it's still a good idea not to use it. I always tell a team of mages that mages are the downfall of parties, as well as one handed/two handed warriors (stupid knockbacks).

Only two of a mages ice attacks aren't AoE, and the second comes at level 60. So you'll be waiting on the cooldown for a long time.

The spare tank is an excellent idea. But sometimes all a mob will need on you is that ONE hit, and if the tank beside you hesitates, that could be it

Maybe go the way of nukers, 90% magical attack?

[Drageath]

I was playing as a pure int cleric yesterday, bear in mind that i was only lvl 10, and i was in a ridiculously stupid party. The warrior wasn't using his aggro taunts, the wizzard was using lower dmg nukes on mobs that the tank wasn't attacking, the bard was attking mobs like he was a str char and the rogue didn't seem to be surviving to well either. Needless to say i was going crazy on the heals but as a result i was staring at the party's hp bars and not the mobs, so once the heal aggroed them they got the jump on me and due to me being pure int and the rest of my party being retarded i died frequently.

Once i died my buffs wore off the party and obviously i couldn't heal so the party members died one by one.

Pure int not helping.

In a good party i believe pure int would be the better build to have but u'd really need some good tankers. A hybrid, while still very vunerable, could perhaps survive a little longer in order for the tank to wake the hell up and aggro the mobs to him. A cleric is about keeping the party alive which includes him/herself, after all u can't do much healing if ur 6 foot under.

In pvp of any kind, clerics are the biggest target and imo no build will change or help that.

Another idea that crossed my mind was a chinese healer that would work in a euro party. They could quite happily be pure str and survive lots of beating. But then theres the whole farming element

[Toasty]

I dont see the point of going pure int as a cleric. Clerics are made to heal.. not to deal damage. I find as a cleric that i never run out of mp and i hardly ever stop group healing. I have about 2:3 in favour of int, and can take about 4 hits from mobs 7 lvls higher than myself, therefore allowing me to party with much higher lvls so much faster exp.

I am robe so this amount of str is good for me, i can see that if you were light armor you would maybe do fine with a 1:6 ratio, but im not sure as ive never tried that.

[Da_Realest]

1. Yes, all the classes can do this, but this paragraph's main point is in the next paragraph so

No. My main point is everything I stated. Its just simple supporting details that I've added that help the survivability of a pure int cleric. Being a cleric, its not your job to worry about dying. If you're dying, someone's not doing their job.

2. Yes you have all these buffs, to cast on teamates, or yourself. But the chance you're going to get the pursuers off of your back in 15 seconds, and still be close enough to ressurect your party is zero, unless the rogue survives and casts Gross Scorn.

I don't know about you, but 15 secs is plenty of time to get the other characters back on their feet. Conjecture is not something I do. I'm speaking from experience. Not to mention you can bind up to 3 enemies which makes them unable to move. If you went out so far that you can't get back to your comrades in 15 seconds, you're not much of a cleric. Reverse Oblation is an instant resurrection skill and Group Reverse has a 25.0 for everyone in range. There isn't no reason that you can't have many people resurrected to resume protecting you or get to somewhere safe.

3. We're talking about mobs a few levels higher than you. I can take on level 30's with a team of 24-26 people. Yes, clerics can block, but they'll need to block every other hit to survive if they're pure intellegence, even if they were wearing light armour.

If you are in a party then you should have buffs from others classes to increase your survivability. No excuses.

Also, orange mobs hit my pure int shield robe character for about 35% hp a hit. It would take 6 or 7 hits to kill me excluding the fact that I can vigor and block. Only about 5 pieces of gear on me is npc but the rest are not. No alchemy. If I'm in a party, I only get hit maybe once before the warrior aggros the mob away from me.

4. This one kind of supports my side. Yes, Cleric's can spam heal without EVER running out of mana. Even if a cleric was pure strength, they could spam away without running out of mana.

There are times when you may have to defend yourself. Thats when Justice Cross and Pure Offering come in handy. Your hp does not. Warrior classes are not only tankers because they're pure str, but because they have stun, knockback, kd, and damage reduce buffs to buy them time to pot. A pure str cleric can't do anything of those. Sure you could Heaven Glare and Bless Recovery but so can a pure int. They're also able to use magic attack spells in the process.

Is Pure Sacrifice an instant cast or does it require a charge? If it does, the chances you'll be able to fire one off are very very slim if you have 2-3 people attacking you. It's better to sacrifice some damage and actually DO damage than to not do damage at all.

With Bless Spell activated those 2 or 3 people can't kill you. Not to mention Heaven Glare binds enemies from moving. Anyway, I'm not sure about the charge time. I don't play my Cleric anymore.

I dont see the point of going pure int as a cleric. Clerics are made to heal.. not to deal damage. I find as a cleric that i never run out of mp and i hardly ever stop group healing. I have about 2:3 in favour of int, and can take about 4 hits from mobs 7 lvls higher than myself, therefore allowing me to party with much higher lvls so much faster exp.

I am robe so this amount of str is good for me, i can see that if you were light armor you would maybe do fine with a 1:6 ratio, but im not sure as ive never tried that.

If Joymax wanted Clerics to be hybrid they would have put str damage on your Cleric rod. The main purpose of being a pure int Cleric is Pure Offering. Its your last resort of defense if you're about to be attack or you're being attacked. This attack is useless for a hybrid. You run the risk of not killing them.'

I can understand someone going pure str cleric but hybrid doesn't seen feasible.

This discussion seems perpetual since people still have the Chinese mentality with Euro characters wanting to be able to do everything on their own. The Cleric build is quite simple. Buff others and heal them. The others place buffs on you that practically make you not killable. And if worse comes to worse, you have Pure Offering to save your life. Not to mention that since its an int class, Joymax may add future magical attacks that could mess up many who decided to go hybrid.

[Bobby_Rock]

Is Pure Sacrifice an instant cast or does it require a charge? If it does, the chances you'll be able to fire one off are very very slim if you have 2-3 people attacking you. It's better to sacrifice some damage and actually DO damage than to not do damage at all.

With Bless Spell activated those 2 or 3 people can't kill you. Not to mention Heaven Glare binds enemies from moving. Anyway, I'm not sure about the charge time. I don't play my Cleric anymore.[/quote]

I looked into this "Offering" skill, and you can ONLY use it when you have enough hp to use it. Say, you have 10,000 hp total. You must have atleast 9,500 left or you can't use it, period. So if you have only 1-9,499, it's a worthless skill, and if you're being attacked, you can't use it, unless whoever's attacking you can't hit 500 on a pure int, in which case a Cross will take care of them. So basicly, this skill isn't really a panic button. It's more of an absolute finisher. Then again, it can be used if you're being charged.

There are times when you may have to defend yourself. Thats when Justice Cross and Pure Offering come in handy. Your hp does not. Warrior classes are not only tankers because they're pure str, but because they have stun, knockback, kd, and damage reduce buffs to buy them time to pot. A pure str cleric can't do anything of those. Sure you could Heaven Glare and Bless Recovery but so can a pure int. They're also able to use magic attack spells in the process.

If you ever have to defend yourself, it's better to be able to fire off three Justice Crosses and kill than fire one off, almost kill, and end up dead because you didn't have enough time to get the second one off. Trust me, a cleric will never be able to one hit mobs past level 40 except with Pure Offering, which probably isn't a smart thing to do.

And tanks ARE only tanks because they have pure strength. Knockback, and kd are becoming a pain in the ass. I was fighting a Giant Party mob and the tanker kept being knocking it back into aggressive mobs six levels higher than the ones we were fighting.
After that, our other tank decides it'd be a good idea to wait until the mages go halfway through a cast and then knock it down, which was a horrible idea cause said tank ended up dying, then the mob that killed our first tank aggroed our cleric and before I could catch up (stupid chickens, wose than earth ghosts -.-) our cleric was dead. (The other cleric had gone to town)

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that knockbacks and knockdowns would hurt a party more than help it.

Long story short, tanks should avoid knockback and kd as much as possible, Dual axe tanks are the best imo. Also, I have never seen a tank use a damage reduction spell on him/herself. If a tank needs to repot, the cleric is doing something wrong

And for now, binds break after a mob is hit. So if a Cleric decides to bind a mob, he better back way up for deciding to attack it.

No counter for the other arguements right now, but I will have one

[Da_Realest]

I looked into this "Offering" skill, and you can ONLY use it when you have enough hp to use it. Say, you have 10,000 hp total. You must have atleast 9,500 left or you can't use it, period. So if you have only 1-9,499, it's a worthless skill, and if you're being attacked, you can't use it, unless whoever's attacking you can't hit 500 on a pure int, in which case a Cross will take care of them. So basicly, this skill isn't really a panic button. It's more of an absolute finisher. Then again, it can be used if you're being charged.

Is it really so hard to use Bless Spell and quickly use a vigor giving you max hp and use Pure Offering? Or bind them until you get max hp?

If you ever have to defend yourself, it's better to be able to fire off three Justice Crosses and kill than fire one off, almost kill, and end up dead because you didn't have enough time to get the second one off. Trust me, a cleric will never be able to one hit mobs past level 40 except with Pure Offering, which probably isn't a smart thing to do.

2 Justice Crosses and a normal attack should finish off most mobs. You could always bind which gives you 10 secs of breather.

And tanks ARE only tanks because they have pure strength. Knockback, and kd are becoming a pain in the ass. I was fighting a Giant Party mob and the tanker kept being knocking it back into aggressive mobs six levels higher than the ones we were fighting.
After that, our other tank decides it'd be a good idea to wait until the mages go halfway through a cast and then knock it down, which was a horrible idea cause said tank ended up dying, then the mob that killed our first tank aggroed our cleric and before I could catch up (stupid chickens, wose than earth ghosts -.-) our cleric was dead. (The other cleric had gone to town)

This is true for Chinese characters but not Euro. Just being a pure str European doesn't make you a tank. You still have a 15 second delay. The only reason the warrior class is successful is because the majority of the warrior attacks put the opponent in a state where they are unable to attack or interrupts an attack. I.e, knockback, stun, and knockdown. This buys them time to pot again. Sure a warrior could solo mobs his level without those type of skills but he would probably have a bit of trouble with orange mobs without using those types of skills.

Maybe your tankers should use that tanking buff that grants them more hp if they aren't already. I'm not sure about your party but the tanker I party with only gets one kd and one knock back on the party mob before its dead.

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that knockbacks and knockdowns would hurt a party more than help it.

It depends on who's in a party. DoT attacks effect knockdown opponents. Warriors and rogues both have skills to attack knock downed opponents. The only person that can't attack is a Wizard. Most Wizard skills are aoe so he shouldn't be hard to target a mob right next to the knocked down mob to do damage. And knock back really isn't a factor since it only takes a few steps forward to be in range to attack again. Sometimes it does become a bit annoying when you have warriors knocking the mob halfway across the map.

Long story short, tanks should avoid knockback and kd as much as possible, Dual axe tanks are the best imo. Also, I have never seen a tank use a damage reduction spell on him/herself. If a tank needs to repot, the cleric is doing something wrong

It helps them survive. Since their constantly taking damage they need skills to buy them time in order for their pots to recovery. Cleric heal skills have a bit of a charge up and depending on how many heal skills the cleric has, the cleric may be waiting on a cool down. Knocking back and knock down can be the difference between life and death for the party depending on the level of the mobs you're grinding. You never know when or where a pt giant or a group of pt mobs may spawn depending on your grinding techniques. Sometimes a nasty critical. If its just sort of normal grinding and the tanker is potting a lot, I agree that the Cleric is doing something wrong.

Most probably don't use the tanking buff the don't like that fact that it lowers their damage. It almost becomes necessary at higher levels though.

And for now, binds break after a mob is hit. So if a Cleric decides to bind a mob, he better back way up for deciding to attack it.

Yea.

No counter for the other arguements right now, but I will have one

Have fun.

[Phortex]

i feel da_Realest has supported many of the agruments i was making vaguely at the start of this thread, however many of the problems still seem to stem from bad partys... which will always cause problems.

You should as a cleric never have a mob attacking you for more than 1 hit as the tank should eb looking to taunt off you right away,though grp heals you should always have full hp for offering.

Knockback is apain the ass, but hey done well and controlled its useful , just have the warrior look where he si going.


But as already said, if clerics are dying its because somone else isnt doing their job....

[blocklandmac]

Clerics are usually "paper" saviors in MMORPGs. They tend to have lower HP in return for having amazing buffs, useful healing spells, and one or two amazing attack spells.

If you want to go hybrid, that's up to you. You will get more defense, but you shouldn't really need it in good parties. As Phortex pointed out, you shouldn't have mobs attacking you for more than one hit when you're in a party. If you get hit more than that, you're either being reckless or your party stinks. If that's the case, you already have a problem there. Worrying about defense shouldn't really be a huge priority there, since you'll end up dying anyway.

[justaskphil]

There's no defense like a good offensive plan...smart party play always wins out over individual stats.

Since Clerics are int based, they should be pure int. That just means everyone else in the party has to step up and protect the holy man/woman.

But when things go wrong, such as awful high spawn rates, or double party mob spawns/champ spawns...do what you have to do, but guard your clerics with your life!

[Toasty]

Remember guys.. you dont always have the perfect party, you generally have to cope with an average (which is pretty unorganized) typical player. I would rather have a build where you can casually play instead of always having to spend ages finding the perfect party. 90% of the time you will have a newb in the party who will aggro random monsters and in this case i think it is best to be a hybrid.

I know i will be staying as a hybrid, as i couldnt cope with only being able to take 1 or 2 hits.. I dont really want to risk dieing a lot when i get to a higher lvl.