A moral question.

tedtwilliger · Post by **tedtwilliger** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:01 pm

Note: Please dont turn this into a flame topic. I really dont wish this to be. I just want to hear some valid opinions of people.

As i was lurking through the forums, as i do, i came across a very interesting question. Is it more justified to hack and strip a non legit player, as opposed to hacking a legit player.

I was pondering this after reading the sg thread. I have alot of respect for sg, after being in blackhand for a short period of time, after seeing all her work here on the forums, etc. And i felt terribly sorry for her losses, after being so close to lvl 80, after so much effort.

Though, if a bot has been hacked, no one seems to care. Sure they are in direct violate joymax's rules. But bots are still people. Some people might have botted a long time ago on one account, botted for a few days, and have regretted it ever since. And if their account is hacked, not many people have sympathy for them.

So i would like to hear some peoples opinions on this matter. I know this could get out of control, and turn into a massive flame war. Or this might even be completely ignored. But if some people are willing to post their opinions, and their justification for them, it would be greatly appreciated.

Because frankly, i have no idea what i think on the issue >.<

StealMySoda · Post by **StealMySoda** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:04 pm

If this does get out of control, I will lock it.

Just a few notes, Sui is a guy

Is it justified? No hacking is justified, legits have put a hell of a lot more work into their accounts though.

woutR · Post by **woutR** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:04 pm

tedtwilliger wrote:Note: Please dont turn this into a flame topic. I really dont wish this to be. I just want to hear some valid opinions of people.

As i was lurking through the forums, as i do, i came across a very interesting question. Is it more justified to hack and strip a non legit player, as opposed to hacking a legit player.

I was pondering this after reading the sg thread. I have alot of respect for sg, after being in blackhand for a short period of time, after seeing all her work here on the forums, etc. And i felt terribly sorry for her losses, after being so close to lvl 80, after so much effort.

Though, if a bot has been hacked, no one seems to care. Sure they are in direct violate joymax's rules. But bots are still people. Some people might have botted a long time ago on one account, botted for a few days, and have regretted it ever since. And if their account is hacked, not many people have sympathy for them.

So i would like to hear some peoples opinions on this matter. I know this could get out of control, and turn into a massive flame war. Or this might even be completely ignored. But if some people are willing to post their opinions, and their justification for them, it would be greatly appreciated.

Because frankly, i have no idea what i think on the issue >.<

SuicideGrl is male.

If you strip all the botters this game would be empty and the legits would have all the best gears in the world.

MrFudge · Post by **MrFudge** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:06 pm

i think hackers dont care who they hack as long as they get goods.
of course it sux when a legit gets hacked because they spent their time handgrinding their char basically to lvl 80. when a bot is hacked they can basically just bot up another char without much effort, just a couple weeks down the drain. seems like the SG hacking thing is a big deal because hes popular here, being the forum admin and all, but to people like me or 80% of the other forum-ers who dont know who he is or basically are just new here, its "just another thread" pretty much.

NuclearSilo · Post by **NuclearSilo** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:09 pm

I didnt see your question

hootsh · Post by **hootsh** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:12 pm

Option 1 : Hack them bots, then delete their characters/accounts.

Option 2 : Same, but play with their chars/accounts (that would be a bit less moral but eh...one less botter and one more really player, at least the botter will learn his lesson.) But would be as bad as the botter.

Option 3 : Do nothing about bots and leave SRO to rot.

Option 4 : Keep dreaming about how JMax is going to solve this.

But i dont think botters have to right to "regret" botting of any kind..i mean they can bot to level 80 and regret they did it lol that will make no difference they still level with bots even if it was only 1 level, the botter used a bot to have a leverage over the honest/regular/legit user.

All bots must be annihilated!!

Thats my opinion.

tedtwilliger · Post by **tedtwilliger** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:22 pm

StealMySoda wrote:If this does get out of control, I will lock it.

Just a few notes, Sui is a guy

Is it justified? No hacking is justified, legits have put a hell of a lot more work into their accounts though.

I respect the locking thing. I know this is a very... volatile subject.

OT:LOL... sui will always be a girl in my eyes... even if she is a he.

Also, i never asked if it was justified, i asked if it was MORE justified. The key word being MORE. Is it AS BAD to hack a bot as it would be a legit.

MrFudge wrote:when a bot is hacked they can basically just bot up another char without much effort, just a couple weeks down the drain.

But still, it is a couple of weeks down the drain. They have still lost all their "hard work", even if they have broken the rules. So should the amount of time and effort they put in, result in more justification for hacking.? Remember 2 wrongs dont make a right.

NuclearSilo wrote: I didnt see your question

Well, i am philosopher by heart. I analyze EVERYTHING. The question may not have been directly in the thread, but i interpreted it from my own.. pondering and from various comments said. If u look closely, the question is hinted apon.

[/quote]

IceCrash · Post by **IceCrash** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:22 pm

MrFudge wrote:i think hackers dont care who they hack as long as they get goods.
of course it sux when a legit gets hacked because they spent their time handgrinding their char basically to lvl 80. when a bot is hacked they can basically just bot up another char without much effort, just a couple weeks down the drain. seems like the SG hacking thing is a big deal because hes popular here, being the forum admin and all, but to people like me or 80% of the other forum-ers who dont know who he is or basically are just new here, its "just another thread" pretty much.

yea mate sad but true...*sigh*..but lets not get another flaming shizz xD

Krysis · Post by **Krysis** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:26 pm

well most bots dont care if they get hacked bcos
1). they can quite easily make a new char..
2). most likely have other chars already

ALTERNATIVExoxo · Post by **ALTERNATIVExoxo** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:39 pm

My view:

A legit has done nothing to deserve being hacked.
A botter has done all that they could to deserve being hacked.

Just my opinion.

If I was a hacker and had the option of hacking a legit account with billions of gold or a bot account with a 100k, I would not even think about hacking the legit. It's just not fair.

tombbb · Post by **tombbb** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:16 pm

Hacking in to strip a player's account is not justified, irrespective of whether the account is legit or not.

In any case, what is the motive of the hacker? How can they be sure the account is not legit? It's like being the judge, jury and executioner. Or executing a man and then finding that he's innocent.

A hacker is probably doing it for personal gains anyway (as was the case for SuicideGrl's account). Does that make the hacker better or worse than a botter?

In a perfect world, a bot would be forced to lose all the levels, money and items that they gained through botting. But then, we don't live in a perfect world. So there is no perfect solution, and hacking certainly isn't a solution at all!

BlackFox · Post by **BlackFox** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:40 pm

I only say ,it best would be that no one would be hacked at all .

Jaume · Post by **Jaume** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:51 pm

woutR wrote:
If you strip all the botters this game would be empty and the legits would have all the best gears in the world.

so true ^^

but then again i find it amusing to laugh at botters when i pwn them... but as black fox said it be best no one got hacked...

glavie · Post by **glavie** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:58 pm

A botter should loose there account. I would prefer it if Joymax did the work, but we all know that won't happen.
If Joymax did there job we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I think the ethical issue comes down to what you do with the goods afterwards.
I believe ethically it should all be npced. But if I was ever in that situation I think I would find it hard to do.

dirstar · Post by **dirstar** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:08 pm

how about this on for size.... what if your pop botters hoping they drop their gear for yoru own gain... if this fair to the botter? or is it the tough luck for botting in the first place?

achmalach · Post by **achmalach** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:27 pm

Fairly easy question:
if i would have that knowledge (hack accounts) i would hack into bot account, sell their gear to the NPC's and delevel them.
I do not care about the person behind the bot. There action of botting says enough... Even if he/she is a nice person. This game has a 'goal' and if you can't meet that goal the way it is intended then you should find another game.

Simple as that.
People should learn that, even in a game, cheating is not the way to succes.
And people only learn the hard way.

Grimjaw · Post by **Grimjaw** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:29 pm

Yes it would be more justified to hack a botter.

They don't play the game so they do not deserve any kind of reward.

Hacking things back should only be used as a last resort.

And should be done without the knowledge of the general grey masses.

Justified example: SuicideGrl's story.

Un-justified story: Jealousy,hate,revenge.or to test skill.

And if you will excuse me,i have a real BBQ to attend.

uBeR · Post by **uBeR** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:31 pm

Let the bots rot. It's not immoral to hack a bot. That's like asking if it's immoral to sentence a killer to life in prison because they're a person too.

soxdrop · Post by **soxdrop** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:50 pm

immoral > hacker > botter > legit > moral

non ego man · Post by **non ego man** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:58 pm

glavie and achmalach said most everything I was going to say...

In the sense that a banned bot is the same as a hacked bot, as far as it affects me, then I want bots to get hacked. I don't want their stuff, I just want them gone.

If all the bots were hacked tomorrow and lost their accounts, I would be ecstatic. If all the legits were hacked tomorrow and lost their accounts, I would quit.

If the hacker is simply motivated by greed to get other people's stuff and doesn't distinguish between legits and botters, then their actions are morally ambiguous. If the hacker is limiting his hacking to botters and keeps their stuff for himself or his friends, it doesn't bother me at all. If the hacker is limiting his hacking to botters and then npc'ing all the sun gear, he's a true legit hero

s0017 · Post by **s0017** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:40 pm

To me, it doesnt matter whether he/she is a bot or not. It just matters if he/she was an asshole or not.

ping_lo · Post by **ping_lo** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:30 pm

The morality of the hacker depends on two things. First who they hack. And last what they do with the goods once they have them. If they hack only botted characters and they NPC or dump gear on random strangers. (IE not friends or family) Then the hacker is ethical and morally justified. They are doing a service for all legit players on the server and even joymax themselves. If D2A and his friend really do really have all the info from the iSRO bot users then they are better able to manage the player bot problem than joymax is.

I can say this however. In the info that was posted in that thread that is now removed. I know for a fact Duck_eggs actual info was there. He has been hacked before and his login/pass globaled on server. Though he managed to change his pass. And just in case you read this D2A bots are not people too. If bots were people we would call them people and players. Instead of bots and botters. If they really were people most of the time there would not be the issue.

And finally there are botters and there are botters. I am friends with people who do bot or have botted. And I will say it is not black and white. There is room for grey in the debate. I know of some who botted a few levels at lower levels. Realized how stupid it was and then went legit after that. Hell I know one guy who botted from lvl 16-22 then went legit to lvl 59. Then decided that he was not happy having botted even those 6 lvls on the character. So he started over and now has a new and better fully legit char in the mid 7X range. Though I should say that those that show regret for having botted are rarer than legit players. And those that abandon characters because they botted them even a bit. Well you have about as good of a chance to win the power ball as to find one of them.

Even though I have friends who bot. I can't respect them because of that. And if they did get stripped it would suck but it was really nothing they didn't set themselves up for.

Stripping a botted character and deleting it = banning by joymax = justice
Being a low level is not a crime
If the game is worth playing it is worth playing right

tedtwilliger · Post by **tedtwilliger** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:47 am

dirstar wrote:how about this on for size.... what if your pop botters hoping they drop their gear for yoru own gain... if this fair to the botter? or is it the tough luck for botting in the first place?

Popping is an allowed part of the game, it is not in any breaking of the games rules, so whether it be a legit or a bot, it dosnt matter.

Thnx for all the replies. I quite enjoyed reading how people see everything. I agree with ping_lo's post though. He/she has made some valid points. Much respect to everyone who posted.

EDIT: Thnx for keeping this from becoming another flame thread

cool2fool · Post by **cool2fool** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:24 am

I like this thread... Hope it won't get lock!

cool2fool · Post by **cool2fool** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:29 am

ALTERNATIVExoxo wrote:My view:

A legit has done nothing to deserve being hacked.
A botter has done all that they could to deserve being hacked.

Just my opinion.

If I was a hacker and had the option of hacking a legit account with billions of gold or a bot account with a 100k, I would not even think about hacking the legit. It's just not fair.

OMG you have no soul like hackerz!!! just because he's a botter and your target will be him? what if he's an innocent kid with no life playing silkroad everyday using a bot? You destroy the only thing that entertain him :shock:

Post by **Rainigul** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:35 am

It's more justified to hack a botter, because they are breaking the terms of service anyways, and have spent no time out of their lives on their account.
They may have spent a bit of money, but they're obviously willing to trade money for time.

They can just spend one more month doing what they like while they get to level 80 on sro.

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