Switch to hybrid or stay int?

[flexo]

its ok cuz if you fight against a bowman youll lose either way.

just stop playing this game

funny

[Doctor_MOS]

Sorry for hijacking your thread, but it sorta applies to your question about hybrid or pure. I like shadowmans answer, very simple.


Flexo
By gap I mean you get no skills above lvl 70 so you are running a large skill gap.
Why can't hybrids take advantage of the same buffs and skills a pure use. Hybrids still nuke like pure ints. But they also use weapon skills like pure strengths.
Since weapon skills combine with imbue hybrids hit harder then pure strength, but weaker then pure int.
They also get the advantage of a high crit weapon that pure str characters can't take advantage of.

You say that you fix the weaknesses of pure builds with alchemy, well I would say you fix the weaknesses of hybrids with alchemy as well.

I don't like shadows awnser but i decided not to respond to ppl saying that pure int gets owned or 1 hit in pvp. Somehow that almost always leads to a flaming session

but yes they can take advantage of alchemy. But it's so many weaknesses they got so you'll need to put blue for everything. As for buffs now you might be able to take all 3 forces but at 90 you won't be able. And hybrids basicly needs it all.
They need more phy def from cold cause they can't kill fast enough.
They need more phy dmg from fire because they don't have the ability to tank good.
And they need the light for the extra mag dmg because that's what they are half mag.

So you can compansate but it's really expensive in gold and sp. And again the higher you go.. the more it becomes obvious how bad the build is.

And yes they have some advantages. Cause it's a half way build. They hit harder then pure str but not so hard to make up for the lose in hp. They can tank more then pure int but not so good to make up for the lose in dmg. And yes they have a higher crit but not so high to say wooow nice..like pure str.

It's all a little here and there.. thrown on one pile. You can make it work it's just hard and really expensive.

Unless you are very close to pure..i've seen builds like that work very well with no insane gear. But as soon as you go closer to 1:1 hybrid you'll do much worse and the higer you get the more it shows.

nice discussion btw.. no flaming and stuff had that to much lately

i quess you have never played a hybrid.....didn't SG PROVED that int hybrid can be a very lethal build????? and if hybrid was weak, why people would be one?

take for example Liquidsmooth, he's str hybrid if i'm not wrong but he makes the biggest critical in his level.

and as a hybrid (for example int) you just have to take one weakness, becease your int is already high, only need to add int for extra damage, not the extra defence,


but this is only my opinion, i've readed yours too,

[flexo]

Sorry for hijacking your thread, but it sorta applies to your question about hybrid or pure. I like shadowmans answer, very simple.


Flexo
By gap I mean you get no skills above lvl 70 so you are running a large skill gap.
Why can't hybrids take advantage of the same buffs and skills a pure use. Hybrids still nuke like pure ints. But they also use weapon skills like pure strengths.
Since weapon skills combine with imbue hybrids hit harder then pure strength, but weaker then pure int.
They also get the advantage of a high crit weapon that pure str characters can't take advantage of.

You say that you fix the weaknesses of pure builds with alchemy, well I would say you fix the weaknesses of hybrids with alchemy as well.

I don't like shadows awnser but i decided not to respond to ppl saying that pure int gets owned or 1 hit in pvp. Somehow that almost always leads to a flaming session

but yes they can take advantage of alchemy. But it's so many weaknesses they got so you'll need to put blue for everything. As for buffs now you might be able to take all 3 forces but at 90 you won't be able. And hybrids basicly needs it all.
They need more phy def from cold cause they can't kill fast enough.
They need more phy dmg from fire because they don't have the ability to tank good.
And they need the light for the extra mag dmg because that's what they are half mag.

So you can compansate but it's really expensive in gold and sp. And again the higher you go.. the more it becomes obvious how bad the build is.

And yes they have some advantages. Cause it's a half way build. They hit harder then pure str but not so hard to make up for the lose in hp. They can tank more then pure int but not so good to make up for the lose in dmg. And yes they have a higher crit but not so high to say wooow nice..like pure str.

It's all a little here and there.. thrown on one pile. You can make it work it's just hard and really expensive.

Unless you are very close to pure..i've seen builds like that work very well with no insane gear. But as soon as you go closer to 1:1 hybrid you'll do much worse and the higer you get the more it shows.

nice discussion btw.. no flaming and stuff had that to much lately

i quess you have never played a hybrid.....didn't SG PROVED that int hybrid can be a very lethal build????? and if hybrid was weak, why people would be one?

take for example Liquidsmooth, he's str hybrid if i'm not wrong but he makes the biggest critical in his level.




but this is only my opinion, i've readed yours too,

well uhm i shouldn't be saying this cause i'm still ashamed of it.. but my first char was a 1:1 cold/light hybrid archer and it s.ucked hard I figured that out at lvl 27 though.

But no basicly I never really played a hybrid my whole opinion and theory about a hybrid is purely based on my experience with fighting against hybrid. And then I started to think of a reason why they could all be so bad.

And like I said there are hybrids that do a great job. But it's a very hard and expensive build to make work. So you better be a pro if you start to make one, but sadly most ppl don't know what they are doing when they make hybrids. Maybe this is why i've got such a bad view about hybrids.

Then again most ppl don't know excactly what they are doing with pure int either.. and that's why ppl think that pure int s.ucks at pvp. And that's one of the reasons ppl go hybrid and end up with a build that can't be fixed. The thing is that when you stay pure your char can always be fixed. Skills can be de-lvl'd and gear can be switched but if you got some weird mag/phy balance then your char basicly is doomed.

and as a hybrid (for example int) you just have to take one weakness, becease your int is already high, only need to add int for extra damage, not the extra defence,

okay you got a point here, cause pure int hardly needs any more dmg. But basicly what you are saying is.. you take some int points from your pure int build. And you put them in str making you a hybrid. Then you go and take more +int (to make up for the int points you put int str) for more dmg. Wouldn't It make more sense to take pure int and then add +str/+hp for more def/hp?? (that's what i'm doing)


as a conclusion. this is just my opion because I never met a strong hybrid. The first one (of my lvl) that pwnz me can completely change my mind

[Doctor_MOS]

okay you got a point here, cause pure int hardly needs any more dmg. But basicly what you are saying is.. you take some int points from your pure int build. And you put them in str making you a hybrid. Then you go and take more +int (to make up for the int points you put int str) for more dmg. Wouldn't It make more sense to take pure int and then add +str/+hp for more def/hp?? (that's what i'm doing)

i agree with you for 50%, yes it's true that if you add str on your gear instead of adding str when you level up is about the same

but if you both have the same str on your gear, an int hybrid that have added something like 20 str has got more hp than a full int rightxD?
OH YEAH REMEMBER ONE THING, IM NOT SAYING THAT PURE INT SUCKS AND THAT HYBRID IS BETTER, im just saying they are both good builds:)

thanks for the discussion glavie , and now im gonna eat some cookies

[flexo]

okay you got a point here, cause pure int hardly needs any more dmg. But basicly what you are saying is.. you take some int points from your pure int build. And you put them in str making you a hybrid. Then you go and take more +int (to make up for the int points you put int str) for more dmg. Wouldn't It make more sense to take pure int and then add +str/+hp for more def/hp?? (that's what i'm doing)

i agree with you for 50%, yes it's true that if you add str on your gear instead of adding str when you level up is about the same

but if you both have the same str on your gear, an int hybrid that have added something like 20 str has got more hp than a full int rightxD?

yeah okay that's true.. but that was not my point.. I'm saying that you could get your extra hp by putting +str on your gear. And hybrids don't need more hp they need to do some dmg so getting more +str as a hybrid I don't get right now.

So i'm saying that a pure int with +20str his gear.
And a hybrid int with 20points into str and +20int on gear.
Are basicly the same hp/mp and phy/mag balance.

The Only diffrence is that the pure int can choose to go more +str or more int by chancing gear cause he already has the high dmg. But the hybrid uhm..well it's complicated with the hybrid. I had a theory but I wrote it down and it s.ucked. But the conclusion was that pure is more flexible then hybrids xD

okay go ahead takle this one down...it's a easy one.. i'm hungery and this was taking too long

OH YEAH REMEMBER ONE THING, IM NOT SAYING THAT PURE INT SUCKS AND THAT HYBRID IS BETTER, im just saying they are both good builds:)

thanks for the discussion glavie , and now im gonna eat some cookies

okay great.. not saying hybrids suck either just that they are hard and expensive to build. And just like pure int many ppl fail in using it right. But the thing with a pure int is that you can set that right.. with a hybrid it's much harder... (hmm i have the feeling I said this before... deja-vu moment lol)

great topic.. ^^

[Doctor_MOS]

So i'm saying that a pure int with +20str his gear.
And a hybrid int with 20points into str and +20int on gear.
Are basicly the same hp/mp and phy/mag balance.

i agree, they are basicly the same with such gear

The Only diffrence is that the pure int can choose to go more +str or more int by chancing gear cause he already has the high dmg. But the hybrid uhm..well it's complicated with the hybrid. I had a theory but I wrote it down and it s.ucked. But the conclusion was that pure is more flexible then hybrids xD

well, as pure int you could also add a lot of int to do more damage rightxD? int hybrid just switched hp for power,


i wont try to say that int hybrid is dealing more damage, becease it's not true (with equal gear)

okay great.. not saying hybrids suck either just that they are hard and expensive to build. And just like pure int many ppl fail in using it right. But the thing with a pure int is that you can set that right.. with a hybrid it's much harder... (hmm i have the feeling I said this before... deja-vu moment lol)

yes i agree, if you set your str:int with a hybrid wrong, you can't restore it like a pure int(just a matter of changing armour) for a hybrid imo you need to be an experienced player..
pure int and int hybrid with like 20 str can cost the same amount of money....full int will take 20 str and int hybrid takes 20 intxD


i think that was what i knew about pure int and int hybrid, just switching power for hpxD

edit: damn i had a hard time getting the quotes right

[SneakyLilBastard]

yeah okay hp-wise not much changes. But you got buffs and skills...... that's what is changing. You got double stun, double stab, new books of buffs.And if you are pure those skills and buffs complete your int/str build.

But in hybrid you are just no a whole. You are little pieces of all so it's never a well working build. Always when you go hybrid you give up a little to gain something that isn't supose to be filled with your int/str balance. With int based it's hp with str based it's dmg.

Whatcha talkin' about? You make it sound as if hybrids aren't able to raise their skills to 300 pts, only pures. The only difference between a pure and a hybrid is about 2-5% extra dmg from their physical/magical ratios, which they easily make up by doing more physical dmg with the weaker magical, but also gain a lot more hp. Their skills are still the same. Right now I have around a 74% physical ratio, and a 106% magical ratio, and almost all my skills are up to my lvl (except for the 6 gap). Where did everything just magically disappear and leave me restricted into what skills I can learn?

i wont try to say that int hybrid is dealing more damage, becease it's not true (with equal gear)

I actually deal more damage than pures, especially when uphunting (thanks to the extra hp, and s/s, not dying from one crit). Most nukers use two nukes in a row, and that's a slow charge up time. The only times they don't use two nukes in a row is when underhunting or hunting at their lvl, which a hybrid can one-shot nuke the monsters too. Since nukers deal so much dmg, the extra dmg from that 2nd nuke winds up being wasted overkill. If they can't kill something one nuke and lion shout, that's when you get that problem. For a hybrid, something like a nuke then a devil cut, that deals more dmg than a pure int nuke and lion shock, even more so when they crit on that evil cut.

The combo of a nuke and evil cut is faster than casting two nukes, and mine will be dead first because of the faster casting rate compared to two nukes. Balancing out speed and dmg to be right on the dot is what allows a hybrid to deal more dmg faster than just doing slow over-powered nukes over and over for excessive dmg.

- N

[flexo]

yeah okay hp-wise not much changes. But you got buffs and skills...... that's what is changing. You got double stun, double stab, new books of buffs.And if you are pure those skills and buffs complete your int/str build.

But in hybrid you are just no a whole. You are little pieces of all so it's never a well working build. Always when you go hybrid you give up a little to gain something that isn't supose to be filled with your int/str balance. With int based it's hp with str based it's dmg.

Whatcha talkin' about? You make it sound as if hybrids aren't able to raise their skills to 300 pts, only pures.

no no.. not at all.. this was in responds to something someone said. My point is that the diffrence in builds becomes bigger at higher lvl. Because of the skills that do more dmg. And the pures that get higher mag/phy balance. A lvl 10 pure int and a lvl 10 pure str are still pretty much the same. At lvl 80 you can not say that at all.

The only difference between a pure and a hybrid is about 2-5% extra dmg from their physical/magical ratios, which they easily make up by doing more physical dmg with the weaker magical, but also gain a lot more hp.

well no this is not entirely true. Mag dmg is higher then phys dmg. So if you take some points out of int and put them in str then you will do more phy dmg then a pure int. And the % in phy dmg increase is prob the same as the decrease in mag dmg. But 1% mag dmg is higher then 1%phy dmg. So you will do less dmg.

Their skills are still the same. Right now I have around a 74% physical ratio, and a 106% magical ratio, and almost all my skills are up to my lvl (except for the 6 gap). Where did everything just magically disappear and leave me restricted into what skills I can learn?

I'm not saying this at all... ofcourse you can get all the skills any othher build can get too.

i wont try to say that int hybrid is dealing more damage, becease it's not true (with equal gear)

I actually deal more damage than pures, especially when uphunting (thanks to the extra hp, and s/s, not dying from one crit). Most nukers use two nukes in a row, and that's a slow charge up time. The only times they don't use two nukes in a row is when underhunting or hunting at their lvl, which a hybrid can one-shot nuke the monsters too. Since nukers deal so much dmg, the extra dmg from that 2nd nuke winds up being wasted overkill. If they can't kill something one nuke and lion shout, that's when you get that problem.

Well yes true.. uhm dunno about a s/s nuker cause I only use my spear to grind. But I have 2 combo's fire nuke + lion shout, light nuke +ghostspear. This kills all the mobs. If the first combo can't and I need more dmg then I use firenuke+ghostspear and lightnuke +stun those combo's both do more dmg. I'm well aware of the overkill principle and nukers are all about killing as fast as possible so this is how I try to achieve that.

For a hybrid, something like a nuke then a devil cut, that deals more dmg than a pure int nuke and lion shock, even more so when they crit on that evil cut.

This is again partially true..... yes when you hit a crit you'll maybe do more dmg on a devil cut then a lion shout. But only then.. devil cut does less dmg then the lion shout. Again because mag dmg is higher then phy dmg. And the lion shout is faster too.

The combo of a nuke and evil cut is faster than casting two nukes, and mine will be dead first because of the faster casting rate compared to two nukes. Balancing out speed and dmg to be right on the dot is what allows a hybrid to deal more dmg faster than just doing slow over-powered nukes over and over for excessive dmg.

- N

Well already adressed this point.. You have to look as a nuker that you don't overkill but just like a hybrid, a pure int can use some weapon skills too. So there are other skills faster then a nuke for if the mob has little hp left. The only time I use 2 nukes in a row is on a champion or giant. I always look at the mobs hp after I shot my first nuke and then guess what skill I will need to finish it off.

Cause on devil yeti it really depends on how high my nukes hit. Some how the diffrence on them is bigger. So sometimes 2nukes +lionshout won't kill them. So after the second nuke I check their hp and decide if I go with lionshout or with ghostspear wich is a little slower but does more dmg.

[SneakyLilBastard]

This is again partially true..... yes when you hit a crit you'll maybe do more dmg on a devil cut then a lion shout. But only then.. devil cut does less dmg then the lion shout. Again because mag dmg is higher then phy dmg. And the lion shout is faster too.

Evil and devil cut do more dmg than lion shocks even without a crit. That 150% you see after the number gains a huge bonus combined with magic attack, even though on the skill page you may see an evil or devil cut with a dmg range of half a lion shout. Something that does say 100-150 dmg with a 150% bonus will do more than a 250-300 but only 100% bonus.

- N

[flexo]

This is again partially true..... yes when you hit a crit you'll maybe do more dmg on a devil cut then a lion shout. But only then.. devil cut does less dmg then the lion shout. Again because mag dmg is higher then phy dmg. And the lion shout is faster too.

Evil and devil cut do more dmg than lion shocks even without a crit. That 150% you see after the number gains a huge bonus combined with magic attack, even though on the skill page you may see an evil or devil cut with a dmg range of half a lion shout. Something that does say 100-150 dmg with a 150% bonus will do more than a 250-300 but only 100% bonus.

- N

last book of lion shout lvl 1 does 272-504(3 simultanious attacks)
last book of blade force lvl 1 does 226 -276 (2 succesive shots)
so last books wins for sure.


now as for the second book who has the 150% bonus you talk about. It's not a bonus it's a dmg %. So here's how it would look like.

second book of blade force lv1 1 does 97-118(150%) => 145.5 - 177=> 161.25
second book of lionshout lvl 1 does 126-233(100%) => 179.5

And that is not counting that the second book of devil cut blade only hits 1 mob and the lionshout hits 3. So if you add the 3 dmg's together it's even more.

And what is also not added is the imbue wich also gives a pure int more dmg then it does a hybrid.

So when you look at all this.. you can savely say that if you would have a pure str do 100 blade cuts and a pure int 100 lion shouts both at the same lvl, same gear etc etc.. so purely looking at the dmg based upon the skill then the lion shout would deal more dmg.

[SneakyLilBastard]

So when you look at all this.. you can savely say that if you would have a pure str do 100 blade cuts and a pure int 100 lion shouts both at the same lvl, same gear etc etc.. so purely looking at the dmg based upon the skill then the lion shout would deal more dmg.

I'm not talking about comparing a pure str char vs a pure int char to show that the blade cuts do more dmg than lion shout. I'm talking about having character themselves do each of the attacks regardless of build, and the evil cuts will do more dmg. Use even yourself if you're a pure int and see what deals more dmg, lion shout or the evil cuts -- the evil cut outta do at least 400-900 more dmg, not even counting any crits.

- N

[flexo]

So when you look at all this.. you can savely say that if you would have a pure str do 100 blade cuts and a pure int 100 lion shouts both at the same lvl, same gear etc etc.. so purely looking at the dmg based upon the skill then the lion shout would deal more dmg.

I'm not talking about comparing a pure str char vs a pure int char to show that the blade cuts do more dmg than lion shout. I'm talking about having character themselves do each of the attacks regardless of build, and the evil cuts will do more dmg. Use even yourself if you're a pure int and see what deals more dmg, lion shout or the evil cuts -- the evil cut outta do at least 400-900 more dmg, not even counting any crits.

- N

well i got my first book upped to the max so i can't just take lvl 1 of the first book of devil cut. And i'm sure as hell are not gonna up it till 9 just to prove you wrong.

But listen to what you are saying. what i took in my example is

pure str with devil cut.. cause that build will do the most dmg with
devil cut.. correct????

and pure int with lion shout.. cause that build will do the most dmg with a lion shout..... also correct right???

Now you think that a pure int will do more dmg with just a devil cut.. then a pure str..?? that is what you are saying or did i get you wrong..??

It's a phys based attack.. how can it ever do more dmg for a pure int then a mag based attack. When even the number say that it does less dmg. I really don't get what you are saying.


I took pure str in this example to give the devil cut a advantage.. the same as lion shout has. To show you that even with max dmg and best build for it..(pure str) it almost never outdamages a lion shout. So that you would understand that if your phy dmg is lower. That the devil cut can sure as hell not outdmg the lionshout with a a build that has even less phy balance and there for whil do less phy dmg. So really unless you see something wrong in the fact and arguments in my previous post. I still think i'm right.

And sorry but i'm not gonna waste sp on something that i'm like 99% sure of that i'm right.. I could always be wrong but you have really not said anything to convince me otherwise... come with some fact..numbers.. someone who tried or tested it.. whatever.. but don't just say go try it..

[EllisD]

come with some fact..numbers.. someone who tried or tested it.. whatever..

I have a char i can use to find out. I have also heard that devil cut does more than a shout of equal level. The benefit of a shout though, is that it does the same damage to 3 mobs, the damage dosnt degrade like most other AOE attacks do, whereas the devil cut only hits 1 (unless you have the last book)

But yea..i will try to get to that tonight

[EllisD]

So i thought i would post after my post instead of editing so it would bump this topic so you could see my results.

So yea, i checked it out yesterday. I dont have screenies atm, had to get to bed pretty quick, but i will get them up when i get home again tonight.

I used the second book of shout at lvl 7 i think it was (needed lvl 51 mastery to lvl up) and i had blade cut maxed with a lvl 45 bicheon mastery. So the lion shout is a higher level then the blade cut.

The character is lvl 64 and i was testing on Power Earth Ghosts with a +5 sword, 115% mag balance (pure int), and the 3rd book of fire imbue.

The lion shout did a pretty steady 2k damage while the blade cut did a steady 2600. They both fluctuated about 200 points either way, but the lion shout was always short by a few hundred points.

Does this mean that the blade cut is better? Well, i would say no simply because of the splash. If 3 mobs are hitting me and i do a shout, it hits all 3 for roughly the same damage, which really helps as a nuker, cause it wears down multiple mobs preparing for an AOE nuke to finish them off. Whereas the cut only hits 1 mob.