Doru wrote:Interesting read, but unfortunetely your model has completely ignored many facets of the game and has made assumptions which lead to incorrect conclusions.
It's true that it ignores many facets of the game. That means that the conclusions could be correct or incorrect. I'd encourage everyone to make up there own minds. Probably the worst assumption is that # mob kills is a reasonable proxy for total effort. If someone wants to do a more complete analysis taking into account different times to kill mobs and different levels, I think that would be a good thing to do.
On the other hand, it is a more complete model than I have ever seen used to justify farming sp ahead. So far, my rather limited experience also doesn't justify farming sp ahead. Given no evidence I can look at that farming sp ahead helps and some evidence that it does very little, there is very little to debate. Either I take the word of the people that have played a long time or I go based off an incomplete model. Either one could be wrong.
Doru wrote:1. You don't take into account how quick it takes to kill mobs - you only consider how many you need to kill. The reason people sp farm bandits, with specifically a SOS bow, is because of the very fast respawn rate and the fact they barely have to move to kill. This means they are able to kill at a quicker rate than later in the game when the mobs are more widespread and don't spawn as quickly.
So, although you try to justify the "keep up" scenario by saying you will have to kill 12% less mobs than a "farmer" scenario (before Lv60), in reality, the "farmer" easily makes up for this because they choose a location/time in the game to farm where they kill mobs at an amazingly fast pace.
In fact, I once went to bandits after a server restart and was absolutely swamped with mobs all around me - I literally was killing so fast I didn't have time to pick up gold/items (and didn't have a monkey at the time). It was absolute non-stop killing, with at least 2-3 enemies on me at all times - I was continuously on the verge of my death (but then again, I was using a sword, and just a +3 one at that). In all my time playing after that, I have *not even come close* to experiencing a situation where the mobs come that fast over an extended time period. Thus, even if the "farmer" has to kill 12% more mobs, it actually takes less time - having to kill 12% more mobs is a minor set back when you're killing 50% faster.
It is true that time to kill at different levels is ignored. Until someone models this, everyone will just have to decide whether that invalidates the model completely or not.
The 12% fewer mobs was to reach level 70 using a strategy which farms some of the xp at level 70. I would actually advocate starting any extra farming needed such that you have just enough when you reach level 70 to get what you want. If you want to talk about mobs to reach level 60, keep up strategy reaches level 60 in 32% fewer mobs than farming all the sp ahead. In all scenarios we have looked at, if all you care about is number of mobs to reach level 70 with all the sp you want, you are better off farming ahead. If you care about when you reach the intermediate levels, using a keep up strategy will reach intermediate levels sooner with only a small penalty in total mobs to having everything at 70.
It is an advantage of farming ahead that you can exploit an especially good weapon for longer without upgrading. I have had plenty of situations even without a server reboot where just standing in one place I get a continuous stream of mobs. It was actually kind of annoying that I couldn't pick up my gold and had to run away if I wanted to rest.
Doru wrote:2. It's true that if you keep your mastery and exp levels equal, you will level faster. But this means you spend less time at each level, and so you gain less gold each level. Thus, when it comes time to buy new gear for the next level, you will have less gold than a "farmer" to spend. This results in a couple situations:
2a. Because you don't have surplus gold, you can't afford the more powerful, and cooler, items in the game. Honestly, in the early stages of the game you will be leveling so fast they won't be really necessary, but the higher level you go, the more that +3 weapon or item (and above) becomes a "necessity" as opposed to a "luxury". However, if a player chooses the "keep up" scenario they may find they barely have enough gold to even upgrade to +0 non-blue stuff at later levels.
Simply put, the "keep upper" has a limited gold supply because they level (and thus upgrade) so fast . . . and it sucks (e.g. not fun) when you're low on gold. On the other hand, the "farmer" makes bank at lower levels, and their large gold stash allows them to buy more powerful, cooler, items - which are more fun to have and use.
I question the validity of your model. It is true that the farmer will be spend more time at the lower levels and collect more gold while at those levels. However, while the farmer is killing those low level mobs, the keeper upper is killing higher level mobs. In my experience, higher level mobs seem to drop more gold and they certainly have more valuable drops. So at least on a per mob basis, the keeper upper will be getting more gold per mob killed. Whether there is enough speed difference in killing mobs to make up for this, I can't say. But I find it extremely unlikely given that a single weapon drop from even mobs in their high 20s can fetch 50k in a stall. The drops from low level mobs simply aren't that valuable. I assume that the value of drops only goes up with level. You are preloading gold but doing it at a slower rate than you can acquire it later. In addition, the farmer actually levels faster starting at lvl 34 or so (although they are very far behind in level at that point), so the farmer actually gets less gold/drops from mobs above that level.
Doru wrote:2b. Because the "keep up" scenario is low on gold compared to a "farmer" - the "keep upper" may have to start doing trade runs, scout the market for more deals, or grind on lower level enemies to make gold. While this is fine, the model doesn't account for this, and this would obviously slow down the progress of a "keep upper" compared to a "farmer".
I don't believe that the keep up scenario results in gold shortage. In the unlikely scenario that the keeper upper runs low on gold, they can simply farm up some gold by letting their gap raise until they feel comfortable again. It's not a hard and fast rule that you have to keep up always. You can keep up most of the time and let your gap raise from time to time if you want more sp or more drops before leveling again. The point is that it doesn't slow down the rate of sp gain overall (in terms of # of mobs) to order it pretty much however you feel like.
Doru wrote:3. You said your model was based on "6 skills per level on top of 3 masteries". Here are the problems with this:
3a. It takes 12,764 skill points to level one mastery from 0 to 60 *not including any skills*. For your 3 masteries, that's 38,292 skillpoints to get to level 60 not including skills. Thing is, your graph of "Average SXP vs. Planned" goes up to 5 million at the highest - but . . . for those 3 masteries alone you need 400*38292 = 15,316,800 skill exp. Not sure if you mislabeled your graph or something, but as of now, you're about 10,000,000 skill exp short *just for the masteries*, so that graph is totally meaningless.
3b. So only 6 skills and 3 masteries, huh? Well, the futher up in level you go, the less powerful you will be compared to a "farmer" of same level who has more skills. For example, it's unlikely you would ever be able to get the HP passive as a pure int if you only had 6 skills - but this skill helps you stay alive more, and gives you a much better chance in PvP. And that's just one example . . .
The fact is getting the skills is fun and beneficial. It's not much fun when you don't stand any chance (regardless of build) vs. someone your level cause your skills suck. And considering your graph above, I'm not even convinced you would have enough sp at Lv60 to get 3 masteries if you kept a zero level gap throughout until Lv60.
This was completely unclear the way it was posted. The model is calculated based on spending for 6 items per level where 1 item is either a mastery level gain or a skill gain. So under the model, you could have three masteries and get 3 skills per level. The graph shows the sp used per level. It is NOT cumulative. If you want the total sp used, you need to integrate that graph. The calculations are based on the plan values which uses a total of 153,413 sp or 61,365,200 skill experience points. The rest of your argument is based off of an incorrect interpretation of the admittedly vague posting. I will note though that the keeper upper will not have a 0 gap while leveling, it will be more like 3-4. This is not calculated off of a terribly skill starved build. 3 masteries and 3 skills PER level seems fairly reasonable. In any case, I don't believe changing the total number of sp used changes the basic conclusion. Using more sp just means the farmer farms longer and the keeper upper has a larger gap.
Doru wrote:4. You don't account for time lost because your character is weak (from both lack of sp and lack of gold). The passives can really help you avoid death, as can having really good defensive items (and offensive items for that matter). But since the "keep upper" doesn't have a surplus of either of these, they are going to die more often - and 2% exp lost a death at higher levels can really add up. Related to this point is point 2b. But the model doesn't consider these factors at all.
I disagree with both of your weak from sp and gold conclusions and hence disagree that the keeper upper dies more often. Certainly, if either of these holds, than the keeper upper would probably need to kill lower level mobs at each level which would slow down leveling, but only if those hold.
Doru wrote:5. In general, your whole premise is flawed because it doesn't include any discussion about your type of build. A 12% difference in number of mobs killed can easily be compensated for by choosing a build that kills fast. If you just want to level up as fast as possible, you would choose pure int spear (well, if you ignore the fact that pure int spear will die more often than pure int sword - which makes choosing spear debatable over sword, especially in the later levels).
But the irony in this is if you keep your skill and exp levels the same throughout with a pure int, a build that needs a lot of sp to really realize its full potential, you will end up with a weak ass pure int due to lack of sp. Thus, it's like you are purposefully making a character who will suck the higher level they go . . . and you are trying to get there as fast as possible! Why would you do that? How is that fun?
If you choose a pure str thinking you will need less sp - well, it takes longer to level than pure int - in fact, it seems it can take a lot longer. So although it may appear you will save time by choosing a pure str with minimal skills, you could probably build a pure int with decent skills in the same amount of time. The point? Talking about the number of mobs needed to be killed misses the big picture if you don't talk about type of build along the way, and thus how much time it takes.
I assume that most people choose a build and then try to level it. The fact that it takes some builds longer to kill mobs than others has absolutely no bearing on the conclusions. A slow killing build will be a slow killing build for both the farmer and the keeper upper. A fast killing build will be a fast killing build for both the farmer and the keeper upper. If you only care about leveling fast, obviously you want a fast killing build. That 12% difference was to level 70 where the farmer has already had significant time to catch up. The 32% difference at level 60 is harder to make up. The farmer needs to kill 168,033 to reach level 40 (mastery level 40). After killing 168,033 mobs, the keeper upper will be at level 58 (mastery level 54) and need 3,803 mobs more to level (or about 1/4 of the level). The suggestion is not to keep character level and mastery level the same throughout, the suggestion is to keep a fairly constant gap and just get the sp needed as you go.
Doru wrote:In the end, the "keep upper" wants instant gratification, and will pay the price for that the higher level they go. The "farmer" is willing to delay gratification, and is rewarded with a more powerful character, has more gold, better items, and will still probably get to Lv60 before the "keep upper".
Why? Because the "keep upper" will probably never get to Lv60 . . . they will have problems buying good equipment (which is more necessary at later levels) because they have little gold. They will have minimal skills later in the game when they are more necessary and will struggle more because of it. If they actually play long enough to get to Lv60, they will be kicking themselves for not farming for just a couple weeks early on when it would of made more of a difference. In PvP they will be owned by almost anyone their level, regardless of build, due to lack of skills and pimp equipment. Basically, it's just a matter of time until they realize that trying to level really fast actually hurt them more than it helped them - and then they will either quit or have to start over.
Therefore, in the end, when it comes to your comment: "keep up is much better and more fun" . . . I completely disagree. It's not better, and it's only fun until you realize just how underpowered you are compared to people similar level.
The price later on is about 5% more mobs total which kicks in pretty much when you reach level 70, not before. I already pointed out major flaws in your weak on gold and sp theory so I won't rehash that here. The keeper upper is more likely to get to level 60 simply because it will take far fewer kills (and almost certainly time) to do so. If they do get to 60, they can simply farm whatever sp they want then at less than a 5% penalty which as you noted is easily swamped by other factors. In PvP, they will be slightly weaker than a farmer of the same character level due to being slightly behind them on skills (about 4 levels), but they will be much stronger than a farmer that has killed the same number of mobs due to being much higher level and having a higher mastery level.
So, in conclusion, keep up gives you much more now with a very slight penalty at level cap. More fun is strictly a matter of opinion. I find keep up to be more fun and I don't think it makes you underpowered. In fact, I think it makes you more powerful for most of the game for a given amount of time invested.
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