Would you...

[ltsune]

But here is the problem. That "copy" is taking away someones profit. Because you copied it means one of those DVD's were not bought. Same as stealing a DVD you just lack the actual DVD from pirating it.

Sure go ahead and say "oh it's not hurting anyone" but in reality it is. Best Buy won't get money, Amazon won't get money, Newegg won't get money, no one will get the money for what you copied. Also don't say "Oh they have plenty of money" what about the family owned companies? The small companies that are local only? You are stealing their profits too.

I do get your overall point, but it's still not always correct.
Sure, what you said is correct if the sentence "Beucase you copied it, it means one of those DVD's were not bought" is always true. But it's not!

Take me as an example:
I would love to own "Limitless". I would never go out and pay $40 for it, though. So I download it instead. You see the difference? If I didn't have the option to download it, I wouldn't pay for it either. I would get it from one of my friends, of if pirating was not possible at all; I would just borrow the DVD from one of my friends, or just watch it at their place one day.

[Love]

Unlikely.

[Amarisa]

Take me as an example:
I would love to own "Limitless". I would never go out and pay $40 for it, though. So I download it instead. You see the difference? If I didn't have the option to download it, I wouldn't pay for it either. I would get it from one of my friends, of if pirating was not possible at all; I would just borrow the DVD from one of my friends, or just watch it at their place one day.

Here is the flaw in your statement.

You BORROWED the DVD from a friend. There is still only ONE DVD both of you can not have it at the same time to do what ever you please. You are bound by that single DVD. There is a difference between borrowing a DVD from a friend and obtaining a copy. If you borrow it then your friend no longer has it but you do. Or if you watch it at a friends house YOU can't do what you please with it but with a copy you can.

And no I don't see the difference. I could download everything on the internet because I didn't want to pay for anything. I would never buy it but I will take it for free instead.

[ltsune]

But that was not what we were discussing.

We were discussing whether or not the shop (whatever DVD shop it may be) loses money because I download a movie. And the answer is NO. As I would simply never go out and buy the DVD in the shop. Not even if I couldn't download it.

[Amarisa]

But that was not what we were discussing.

We were discussing whether or not the shop (whatever DVD shop it may be) loses money because I download a movie. And the answer is NO. As I would simply never go out and buy the DVD in the shop. Not even if I couldn't download it.

So then I can just download everything I don't want to buy and everything is ok?

[woutR]

Yes

/thread

[ltsune]

But that was not what we were discussing.

We were discussing whether or not the shop (whatever DVD shop it may be) loses money because I download a movie. And the answer is NO. As I would simply never go out and buy the DVD in the shop. Not even if I couldn't download it.

So then I can just download everything I don't want to buy and everything is ok?

I never said it was okay to download things. I didn't talk about morals or anything.

I simply said, that many people will not go buy it, even if they can't download it. And therefore, the shop does not always lose money, if you download a DVD/game.


The question about whether or not it is "okay" is a completely different subject. Personally I do not believe that downloading pirated material is alright! Now, obviously I can't claim that I've never done it, as that would be a lie. But that doesn't mean I think it's okay.
I do believe pirating (and downloading pirated material) IS in fact stealing, and thus should not be done.

[Amarisa]

What i am trying to get at is that if you download it then you obtain a copy that you can do anything with like as if you just bought it. However if you go to a friends house to watch it you are not able to do what you want with it unless your friend wants to do the same. But just downloading a copy means you gain that control that you shouldn't have to begin with. If a friend gives it to you then you are transfering the control.

Basicly it's ownership. You don't own the real thing just a copy and the only way to own it is by buying it or taking it from someone else.

[ltsune]

What i am trying to get at is that if you download it then you obtain a copy that you can do anything with like as if you just bought it. However if you go to a friends house to watch it you are not able to do what you want with it unless your friend wants to do the same. But just downloading a copy means you gain that control that you shouldn't have to begin with. If a friend gives it to you then you are transfering the control.

Basicly it's ownership. You don't own the real thing just a copy and the only way to own it is by buying it or taking it from someone else.

We do not disagree about this. And we never did

[Amarisa]

What i am trying to get at is that if you download it then you obtain a copy that you can do anything with like as if you just bought it. However if you go to a friends house to watch it you are not able to do what you want with it unless your friend wants to do the same. But just downloading a copy means you gain that control that you shouldn't have to begin with. If a friend gives it to you then you are transfering the control.

Basicly it's ownership. You don't own the real thing just a copy and the only way to own it is by buying it or taking it from someone else.

We do not disagree about this. And we never did

And that's how stores loose profit. You have 1 person with true ownership and giving a copy to others. He still has ownership of said item and you have ownership of a copy. If the copies costed money he would be making the profit not legit stores.

[ltsune]

What i am trying to get at is that if you download it then you obtain a copy that you can do anything with like as if you just bought it. However if you go to a friends house to watch it you are not able to do what you want with it unless your friend wants to do the same. But just downloading a copy means you gain that control that you shouldn't have to begin with. If a friend gives it to you then you are transfering the control.

Basicly it's ownership. You don't own the real thing just a copy and the only way to own it is by buying it or taking it from someone else.

We do not disagree about this. And we never did

And that's how stores loose profit. You have 1 person with true ownership and giving a copy to others. He still has ownership of said item and you have ownership of a copy. If the copies costed money he would be making the profit not legit stores.

No, he would not be making money, as I would not buy it from him for money.

Okay, to get this straight I believe we will have to take it in short pieces.
We agree that:
The store only loses money in the case that I would, if downloading illegally was not an option, buy the DVD in the given shop, right?

[Tasdik]

If you wouldn't pay for it, why would you bother downloading it?

[XMoshe]

If you wouldn't pay for it, why would you bother downloading it?

Because I'd like to see, for example, all episodes of the simpsons eventually but I'm not going to pay 20-25 euro a season.

[MrTwilliger]

Am I to understand then that because you don't want to pay for something, you feel you should have the right to get the product for free?

[EvGa]

Am I to understand then that because you don't want to pay for something, you feel you should have the right to get the product for free?

Nope, don't feel that way.

Stealing is wrong, mmmkay.

I do it anyway with software and occasionally movies/music. mmmkay.

That's all there is to it really.

[Skyve]

Am I to understand then that because you don't want to pay for something, you feel you should have the right to get the product for free?

Obviously yes. As selfish as it sounds, I'm the captain of my own world.

[ltsune]

If you wouldn't pay for it, why would you bother downloading it?

First of all because it's way easier, lol.
I have 20km to the nearest DVD shop. It's simply way easier to download it.
Secondly because paying for DVD's is very expensive.

Am I to understand then that because you don't want to pay for something, you feel you should have the right to get the product for free?

No, not at all. Far from, actually.
I do not have the right to download it, just because I don't want to pay for it. What I was originally discussing was, that just because I download a movie, doesn't mean that a DVD shop loses money.

But no, downloading is illegal, and should not be done.
What would be really neat, though, would be to have the legal option to stream movies in great quality from the internet. Of course such server wouldn't be free. But as long as it's easier than driving 20km to the nearest dvd shop, I would gladly do it.

[Amarisa]

If you wouldn't pay for it, why would you bother downloading it?

First of all because it's way easier, lol.
I have 20km to the nearest DVD shop. It's simply way easier to download it.
Secondly because paying for DVD's is very expensive.

Am I to understand then that because you don't want to pay for something, you feel you should have the right to get the product for free?

No, not at all. Far from, actually.
I do not have the right to download it, just because I don't want to pay for it. What I was originally discussing was, that just because I download a movie, doesn't mean that a DVD shop loses money.

But no, downloading is illegal, and should not be done.
What would be really neat, though, would be to have the legal option to stream movies in great quality from the internet. Of course such server wouldn't be free. But as long as it's easier than driving 20km to the nearest dvd shop, I would gladly do it.

netflix. Don't think they stream HD just yet but soon.

[ltsune]

If you wouldn't pay for it, why would you bother downloading it?

First of all because it's way easier, lol.
I have 20km to the nearest DVD shop. It's simply way easier to download it.
Secondly because paying for DVD's is very expensive.

Am I to understand then that because you don't want to pay for something, you feel you should have the right to get the product for free?

No, not at all. Far from, actually.
I do not have the right to download it, just because I don't want to pay for it. What I was originally discussing was, that just because I download a movie, doesn't mean that a DVD shop loses money.

But no, downloading is illegal, and should not be done.
What would be really neat, though, would be to have the legal option to stream movies in great quality from the internet. Of course such server wouldn't be free. But as long as it's easier than driving 20km to the nearest dvd shop, I would gladly do it.

netflix. Don't think they stream HD just yet but soon.

First of all, Netflix is not available in my Denmark
Secondly, do they have access to all movies made today? Both new, and those a couple of years old? I honestly highly doubt it, lol.

[MrTwilliger]

What would be really neat, though, would be to have the legal option to stream movies in great quality from the internet. Of course such server wouldn't be free. But as long as it's easier than driving 20km to the nearest dvd shop, I would gladly do it.

I have said for a long time that this is the next logical evolution of the internet. I buy all my CD's and DVD's from JB-Hi-Fi and some online and it's an absolute pain to rip CD's, not to mention that I can't legally rip DVD's. I would love to have a centralised, internationally accessible website in which I could buy CD's, movies, DVD's, programs, games etc from. iTunes has the right concept but their selection is too limited, I can't find a single anime I like on iTunes and none of the shows I like to watch are there. Also, the one show I want to buy a digital copy of (adventure time) can't be bought in Australia over Itunes! Why? It makes no sense! Silly, silly marketing strategies. Seriously.

But I digress, I think that the best thing for the industry to do is create a sort of centralised hub, basically a JB-Hi-Fi (or insert relevant entertainment chain) online store in which you can buy/stream digital files for a cost (either per item or on an account basis).

[ltsune]

What would be really neat, though, would be to have the legal option to stream movies in great quality from the internet. Of course such server wouldn't be free. But as long as it's easier than driving 20km to the nearest dvd shop, I would gladly do it.

I have said for a long time that this is the next logical evolution of the internet. I buy all my CD's and DVD's from JB-Hi-Fi and some online and it's an absolute pain to rip CD's, not to mention that I can't legally rip DVD's. I would love to have a centralised, internationally accessible website in which I could buy CD's, movies, DVD's, programs, games etc from. iTunes has the right concept but their selection is too limited, I can't find a single anime I like on iTunes and none of the shows I like to watch are there. Also, the one show I want to buy a digital copy of (adventure time) can't be bought in Australia over Itunes! Why? It makes no sense! Silly, silly marketing strategies. Seriously.

But I digress, I think that the best thing for the industry to do is create a sort of centralised hub, basically a JB-Hi-Fi (or insert relevant entertainment chain) online store in which you can buy/stream digital files for a cost (either per item or on an account basis).

This is exactly what I meant. It would be very useful. The problem, however, is not that there aren't enough new firms and websites out there, who tries to make such a service. No, the problem is that the publishers and film makers do not want to give the authorities for such websites to actually get access to all movies, series etc.

[Snazzi]

What would be really neat, though, would be to have the legal option to stream movies in great quality from the internet. Of course such server wouldn't be free. But as long as it's easier than driving 20km to the nearest dvd shop, I would gladly do it.

I have said for a long time that this is the next logical evolution of the internet. I buy all my CD's and DVD's from JB-Hi-Fi and some online and it's an absolute pain to rip CD's, not to mention that I can't legally rip DVD's. I would love to have a centralised, internationally accessible website in which I could buy CD's, movies, DVD's, programs, games etc from. iTunes has the right concept but their selection is too limited, I can't find a single anime I like on iTunes and none of the shows I like to watch are there. Also, the one show I want to buy a digital copy of (adventure time) can't be bought in Australia over Itunes! Why? It makes no sense! Silly, silly marketing strategies. Seriously.

Companies that limit their consumer market are just douchebags lol. I don't know why they would do it... I never download off iTunes (Not over 18, so I can't pay, and I can just dl them for free - shoot me), so I haven't had the problem with shit not being available in Australia, but I have had the 'not supported' in your country problem before.

Half the world has downloaded stuff off the internet in an illegal way. I'm sure that 99% of you guys have at one stage in your life. If police or whoever is responsible for stopping this trend should have done so when they had the chance.

[phulshof]

The copying = stealing mantra of the industry is getting tiresome. It's neither legally nor morally the same. If you believe it is, I'll gladly let you copy my car if in turn I am allowed to steal yours.

Fact remains that copyright infringement is (still) illegal, with maximum punishments often much higher than if you'd stolen the thing. Heck, in some countries you can get less jail time for manslaughter (which incidentally can't be spelled without laughter) than for copyright infringement. Chances of getting caught infringing copyright however are much smaller than for theft.

As for the OP: No, I would not steal a cd/dvd/game from a store. It deprives the store keeper of his property, and it drives up the prices. Generally I don't infringe on copyrights either, but that might have something to do with the home-copying law here in the Netherlands, which allows you to make copies of audio/video for your own usage in return for a levy system. IMHO a very good system that legalizes general consumer behavior while making sure the artists get paid.

[omier]

Heck, in some countries you can get less jail time for manslaughter (which incidentally can't be spelled without laughter) than for copyright infringement.

So when a man laughs he goes to jail while woman's laughter is not punishable. I want equal rights and lefts!

Spoiler!

[phulshof]

Am I to understand then that because you don't want to pay for something, you feel you should have the right to get the product for free?

No, but at some point in time we decided that copying books/audio/video should be illegal, because "home taping is killing music". I could make the same argument for "home cooking is killing restaurants", which would be equally ridiculous, but for some odd reason it's not illegal to cook up the same recipe you ate at the restaurant last week.

Feel free to copy my car anytime you want, but please do me a favor, and don't steal it.

[TheDrop]

^So you would let someone just copy your car, that you bought for 20k+, for free?

[phulshof]

^So you would let someone just copy your car, that you bought for 20k+, for free?

Certainly. It doesn't cost me anything to allow someone else to use his/her own time and materials to make a copy of my car. Give it a few more decades, and with digital printing we'll all be doing it, providing politicians don't make it illegal. Open Source cars for everyone!

[EvGa]

^So you would let someone just copy your car, that you bought for 20k+, for free?

If they put their car on an open torrent I would!

BRB - Corvette torrent, 1 seeder, 23432141324 leeches.

[Tasdik]

^So you would let someone just copy your car, that you bought for 20k+, for free?

If they put their car on an open torrent I would!

BRB - Corvette torrent, 1 seeder, 23432141324 leeches.

The aftermath of something like that happening would be horrendous.

[XMoshe]

Am I to understand then that because you don't want to pay for something, you feel you should have the right to get the product for free?

I'm not saying I got the right to download anything.

Actually fck you all, downloading is legal here xD So I don't have to justify shit to any of you! woohoo