Health Care Reform

[leehyori26]

Im never posting in the OFT again

nobody said you had to

Ya thats true but ive been having personal issues and ive needed to vent it on something for awhile but instead of going REAAAAAALLLLLYYYYY off topic ill jut leave it at that

and Jstar about the black comment......SERIOUSLY?

[the.unseen.]

Unlike alot of people here, some people in the US do not want universal healthcare and are willing to do anything to stop it

Why should the rich care about the poor or elderly? it's not their fault they are poor and, or old!!!It's capitalism at it's finest the rich get richer, the poorer get poorer.

I'M paying extra taxes so some lazya** people can go to the doctor for some remedial issue and just have it payed for there on the spot because me, my dad, and other hardworking people got their paychecks reduced by ALOT to pay for this stuff and its only a matter of time before someone takes advantage just like welfare has been

What about the single mothers working 40+ hours a day and still not making enough to feed their family? Maybe it helps them, or what about the people in Asia working 15 hours a day in a building with toxins as a 10 year old. I guess its alright for others to profit off that and to buy that stuff from stores, but its not fair to have nation wide healthcare because people could take advantage of it? Life must be tough for you.

[Jstar1]

It's capitalism at it's finest the rich get richer, the poorer get poorer.

Because the Soviet union, the communist countries, continues to prosper and exist today.

capitalism isn't perfect but it works. communism doesn't work. People yelling socialism and dictatorship because of health reform need to pull their head out of fox news' ass and stop smelling the shit they spew out. Oh and by the way, european countries with universal healthcare are running massive deficits, ration healthcare, and euthanize the old.

[the.unseen.]

It's capitalism at it's finest the rich get richer, the poorer get poorer.

Because the Soviet union, the communist countries, continues to prosper and exist today.

capitalism isn't perfect but it works. communism doesn't work. People yelling socialism and dictatorship because of health reform need to pull their head out of fox news' ass and stop smelling the shit they spew out. Oh and by the way, european countries with universal healthcare are running massive deficits, ration healthcare, and euthanize the old.

And America doesn't have massive deficits? I mean everyone is fine with spending trillions on the army, but when it comes to helping the poor and elderly its "not right, or fair". But hey euthanizing the old is wrong but letting the poor either die or become homeless is alright? I mean look what happen to that one woman who was left for death in that one hospital in America.

[Jstar1]

well thats why obama is trying to pass healthcare reform, to make life more fair. Anyways, its very naiive and idealistic to think that any kind of reform is going to magically erase poverty. The bottom line is there is always going to be poor people in society. You can't make every single person's life better.

And saying that its "not the poor's fault that they are poor" is not completely true. A lot of poor people are poor for legit reasons but people are also poor because they are irresponsible, spend money on beer or gambling, or can't seem to understand that they need to finish school to get a job.

I mean look what happen to that one woman who was left for death in that one hospital in America.

sources? lol.

[the.unseen.]

sources? lol.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/01/waitin ... index.html
Now wheres your source that European countries are killing elderly.

[Jstar1]

what are you talking about? I was being sarcastic. notice the -->
european countries have the best healthcare in the world. I dont see healthcare rationing in europe, or death panels, or low quality care, or killing off old people, do you?

[the.unseen.]

what are you talking about? I was being sarcastic. notice the -->
european countries have the best healthcare in the world. I dont see healthcare rationing in europe, or death panels, or low quality care, or killing off old people, do you?

This forum really needs the smilie where the guy has his pointing finger in front of his mouth. It's a much better sarcasm smilie.

[Deadsolid]

what are you talking about? I was being sarcastic. notice the -->
european countries have the best healthcare in the world. I dont see healthcare rationing in europe, or death panels, or low quality care, or killing off old people, do you?

This forum really needs the smilie where the guy has his pointing finger in front of his mouth. It's a much better sarcasm smilie.

Let's just go with "/sarcasm" from now on, ok?

Edit:
I wanted to bring up something I noticed in a previous post, and something that is an underlying fact in all this. The people who are protesting against this bill would more than likely benefit most from this bill. Same happened during the election and tax cut debacle. I hate to bring it up again, but FOX has an undeniable effect on the way America is viewing the current president.

I've been trying to figure out what drives so many people to FOX. It's not the most recent political happenings, but more than likely something far older or, perhaps, something more consistent throughout history. All I can come up with is religion, racism and generally the hatred bewteen the left and the right. I don't know, though, I tend to dismiss these ideas rather quickly. Maybe I just refuse to believe that Americans are so simple minded. Perhaps they are gravely misled...

[Charatsandhu]

in the end, all this bill does is help the US become more of welfare state. It's not free healthcare as many presume. Its a classic case of socialism. The price of insurance for poor people goes down while the price for rich people goes up. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the wealthy here because not I'm hella rich, I'm lower middle class too.

I just don't like the idea that someone else pays for a person. I guess I'm old fashioned because I think that YOU SHOULD BEAR THE FRUITS OF YOUR OWN LABOR. The free market can do the same thing that the government is trying to do, except without the red tape that the government throws into the mix. If they let companies compete, the prices would go down. I'm sorry but socialism fails, we all know that.

We let the government control our money via the Federal Reserve, and that is failing us. Face it, everything the FEDERAL government tries to control ends up failing/going bankrupt. Bureaucracy only complicates things. You really want them in charge of your health too now?

/Libertarian

[Love]

in the end, all this bill does is help the US become more of welfare state. It's not free healthcare as many presume. Its a classic case of socialism. The price of insurance for poor people goes down while the price for rich people goes up. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the wealthy here because not I'm hella rich, I'm lower middle class too.

I just don't like the idea that someone else pays for a person. I guess I'm old fashioned because I think that YOU SHOULD BEAR THE FRUITS OF YOUR OWN LABOR. The free market can do the same thing that the government is trying to do, except without the red tape that the government throws into the mix. If they let companies compete, the prices would go down. I'm sorry but socialism fails, we all know that.

We let the government control our money via the Federal Reserve, and that is failing us. Face it, everything the FEDERAL government tries to control ends up failing/going bankrupt. Bureaucracy only complicates things. You really want them in charge of your health too now?

/Libertarian

you should sign off as /ignorant ass

what you refer to as the "free market" is the very best at what it does and in this fine example is doing what is does best and that is abuse it's monopoly for profit, gg jackass.

If only you could comprehend half of what the reality is before trying to label yourself as some sort of intellectual it would be a milestone.

[heroo]

I seriously don't understand why you call yourself ''Love''.

I'll say it again: calling someone names doesn't make your arguements any better and it doesn't make you look intellectual.

The arguements you give are quite good, but the way you bring it is just retarted.

So please stop acting like an e-thug.

[chickenfeather]

in the end, all this bill does is help the US become more of welfare state. It's not free healthcare as many presume. Its a classic case of socialism. The price of insurance for poor people goes down while the price for rich people goes up. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the wealthy here because not I'm hella rich, I'm lower middle class too.

I guess you could look at it from several perspectives... Sure it's good that the poor will not have to worry about health insurance because we the taxpayers are paying for it, but I would prefer it if they had a check box for "Do you want to support a poor person's healthcare?" on our tax forms so that we would have a choice instead of forcing everyone to do it.

I just don't like the idea that someone else pays for a person. I guess I'm old fashioned because I think that YOU SHOULD BEAR THE FRUITS OF YOUR OWN LABOR.

I agree, but most people these days don't believe in this. They all want to get somewhere and something for free without working for it.

The free market can do the same thing that the government is trying to do, except without the red tape that the government throws into the mix. If they let companies compete, the prices would go down. I'm sorry but socialism fails, we all know that.

The insurance companies have been operating free for the longest time. Prices don't go down. However, when the government comes in, it won't have to compete at all because it has unlimited funds and can print money. This will probably kill off a lot of insurance companies.

[XemnasXD]

We let the government control our money via the Federal Reserve, and that is failing us. Face it, everything the FEDERAL government tries to control ends up failing/going bankrupt. Bureaucracy only complicates things. You really want them in charge of your health too now?

/Libertarian

i know. can't trust that gov't with our health at all...the FDA ruins everything...oh wait...you probably don't purchase meat and produce that has to be inspected by the gov't...and you probably take all kinds of drugs that haven't been approved either...cause we both know gov't can't be trusted with our health....

[heroo]

I don't understand why so many Americans don't trust their government.

It is YOU, the people, that choose that government.

[EvGa]

I don't understand why so many Americans don't trust their government.

It is YOU, the people, that choose that government.

You can't please both sides. Strong percentages are strong.

[Shadow]

However, when the government comes in, it won't have to compete at all because it has unlimited funds and can print money.

I find it strange that a lot of countries have debts if they have unlimited money.

[heroo]

You can't please both sides. Strong percentages are strong.

sure you can't please both sides, but that's why we have democracy.

the point of democracy is to please as many people as possible.

the people who voted for Barrack Obama knew about his plans to reform the healthcare system, so you can't complain know when he actually does what he promised during electiontime.

[Jstar1]

However, when the government comes in, it won't have to compete at all because it has unlimited funds and can print money.

I find it strange that a lot of countries have debts if they have unlimited money.

You can't just print pieces of paper and call it real money. Money is supposed to be backed by something like gold. Printing paper does work in the short run (and they are printing money like crazy right now) but in the long term you gonna have inflation and other problems.

If there is one thing in America that should be regulated by the government, its healthcare. The healthcare industry is different from other industries. There really is no concept of supply and demand here. People will always be sick and people will always have their lives on the line, and hospitals and insurance companies can always raise prices because a lot of people are willing to give a lot to save a life.

That is why the government needs to step in and prevent prices from skyrocketing, keep insurance companies from being greedy, and make healthcare affordable for everyone.

[Charatsandhu]

i know. can't trust that gov't with our health at all...the FDA ruins everything...oh wait...you probably don't purchase meat and produce that has to be inspected by the gov't...and you probably take all kinds of drugs that haven't been approved either...cause we both know gov't can't be trusted with our health....

dude, the FDA is no where near as successful as it could be if state governments ran it. I'd be all for a healthcare plan if it was at state level, but I dont support any federal level plans. Too much bureaucracy just slows down and complicates everything.

you should sign off as /ignorant ass

what you refer to as the "free market" is the very best at what it does and in this fine example is doing what is does best and that is abuse it's monopoly for profit, gg jackass.

If only you could comprehend half of what the reality is before trying to label yourself as some sort of intellectual it would be a milestone.

oh the irony. you try to assert your viewpoint by name calling and don't know anything about the matter at hand. you are prime example of ignorance. if you knew a single thing about free market Austrian Economics, we wouldn't be having this conversation. go educate yourself on it, and try not to do it with the Keynesian-infested books your school gave/gives you.

I don't understand why so many Americans don't trust their government.

It is YOU, the people, that choose that government.

they don't trust their government because the Democrats and Republicans are the same exact thing. they both want to increase the size of the government. the democrats want to expand the social welfare sector; closet socialists. the republicans want to expand the military and have a aggressive foreign policy while limiting the rights of the people; closet fascists. It doesn't matter who you vote for.

However, when the government comes in, it won't have to compete at all because it has unlimited funds and can print money.

I find it strange that a lot of countries have debts if they have unlimited money.

You can't just print pieces of paper and call it real money. Money is supposed to be backed by something like gold. Printing paper does work in the short run (and they are printing money like crazy right now) but in the long term you gonna have inflation and other problems.

that's exactly what almost all of the countries of the world are doing today, printing their own money and calling it real. no one uses reserve systems such as gold or silver in the world anymore, with the exceptions of a few Islamic countries. Inflation is inevitable, the debt will be liquidated. Central banking does not work.

[McLovin1t]

republicans aren't raging because of the bill, they are raging because obama is black.

And republicans are hypocritical - bush's prescription drug bill expanded government health coverage. Plus the fact that like $600 billion of the deficit is due to bush's tax cuts and the iraq/afghanistan wars he started.

And no child left behind shit.
And yeah war debts.
I FARKING HATE REPUBLICANS.
Freaking religion and protestantism and racism.
UGH freaking ridiculous. They have the 5% richest part of the country pay for their campaigns, and they don't care about the country.
You won't get taxed more than 1% extra from this bill, and it saves up to 45 million uninsured.

[McLovin1t]

However, when the government comes in, it won't have to compete at all because it has unlimited funds and can print money.

I find it strange that a lot of countries have debts if they have unlimited money.

You can't just print pieces of paper and call it real money. Money is supposed to be backed by something like gold. Printing paper does work in the short run (and they are printing money like crazy right now) but in the long term you gonna have inflation and other problems.

If there is one thing in America that should be regulated by the government, its healthcare. The healthcare industry is different from other industries. There really is no concept of supply and demand here. People will always be sick and people will always have their lives on the line, and hospitals and insurance companies can always raise prices because a lot of people are willing to give a lot to save a life.

That is why the government needs to step in and prevent prices from skyrocketing, keep insurance companies from being greedy, and make healthcare affordable for everyone.

Not only that, but the healthcare prices can be not affordable to thousands of workers.
More than 45 million are uninsured.
It could happen to you.
Try this scenario:
Parents lose job (if you are a kid), and then because of this recession, it has been a few weeks, and they can't find one, so their insurance runs out because you need money for food/housing etc.
Then, you get in a car accident.
You need a transplanted heart or something, QUICK!
You get a transplant for $250,000 (or more) and you and your family are instantly bankrupted because of no insurance.
You lose your house, car, everything, all because of this gap in health insurance, and that it is very difficult to hold in one's home, especially in lower classes.
This bill is not for the individual, it is a bill meant to benefit the masses, and protect people.
The only foreseeable problems are higher taxes to small businesses, and higher taxes (by .95% around per person)

[Jstar1]

^what taxes on small businesses? really? republicans would be calling for obama's head. I only read that he was going to increase taxes in the top income brackets and moving funds from other programs to fund the healthcare bill.

[McLovin1t]

^what taxes on small businesses? really? republicans would be calling for obama's head. I only read that he was going to increase taxes in the top income brackets and moving funds from other programs to fund the healthcare bill.

That's what I had heard. But people rant about how small businesses have to pay for health insurance (although it costs less, so I don't get it actually).
And no, he's taxing everyone, but it's .95% so it's no big deal.
Also, the biggest bullsht argument is "it's unconstitutional."
The constitution also clearly states "blacks are 2/3 of a person," "alcohol was prohibited,", "slavery was legal." etc.
Also, it doesn't clearly prohibit compelling one to purchase life saving objects, so it's a non-topical argument, as well as not a piece of offense on the structuring system itself.

[XemnasXD]

i know. can't trust that gov't with our health at all...the FDA ruins everything...oh wait...you probably don't purchase meat and produce that has to be inspected by the gov't...and you probably take all kinds of drugs that haven't been approved either...cause we both know gov't can't be trusted with our health....

dude, the FDA is no where near as successful as it could be if state governments ran it. I'd be all for a healthcare plan if it was at state level, but I dont support any federal level plans. Too much bureaucracy just slows down and complicates everything.

You mentioned bureaucracy slowing things down but thats exactly whats would happened if the FDA was divided up amoung 50 states. It would basically mean different expectations, regulations, and red tape for any food or drugs going over state borders. If Ohio farm products meet Ohio standards but not NY, PA, DE, or VAs standards that farmer would be unable to sell his goods to any type of retail chain that operates in more than one state without satisfying each states requirements. The same goes for drugs as well, i mean you'd be opening up a whole host of bureaucratic problems.

How could the FDA being state controlled be more effective than it being federal control? How does a state controlled system that still has to coordinate with other states and lowers competition on the market make things less bureaucratic? You realize that state gov'ts and regulations have to pass through state legislation which can be just as divided and ardous as the Federal gov't. A couple months ago all public transportation in the city of Philadelphia and the surrounding suburbs was halted to a strike brought on by the states inability to reconcile with Trans Organization and a few months before that several thousand people were about to lose their jobs and several schools, libraries, and parks were going to close because the state couldn't reach a decision to approve the budget that they had been sitting on for months. This is all taking place during a recession keep in mind and all of it was held up by state bureaucracy.

The implication that because state agencies are smaller than federal agencies they can run more efficiently is ungrounded and not backed up by much proof. If the same healthcare bill was passed just by your state you'd still be going through as much red tape as if it where on a federal level, even more red-tape actually because states have to interact with one another and whats acceptable for people in Cali isn't always acceptable for other states so you'd have to make separate agencies to coordinate relationships between the two.

You're making a very poor argument here...

[Ownage]

^what taxes on small businesses? really? republicans would be calling for obama's head. I only read that he was going to increase taxes in the top income brackets and moving funds from other programs to fund the healthcare bill.

That's what I had heard. But people rant about how small businesses have to pay for health insurance (although it costs less, so I don't get it actually).
And no, he's taxing everyone, but it's .95% so it's no big deal.
Also, the biggest bullsht argument is "it's unconstitutional."
The constitution also clearly states "blacks are 2/3 of a person," "alcohol was prohibited,", "slavery was legal." etc.
Also, it doesn't clearly prohibit compelling one to purchase life saving objects, so it's a non-topical argument, as well as not a piece of offense on the structuring system itself.

Amendments 13,14,15,21

[McLovin1t]

^what taxes on small businesses? really? republicans would be calling for obama's head. I only read that he was going to increase taxes in the top income brackets and moving funds from other programs to fund the healthcare bill.

That's what I had heard. But people rant about how small businesses have to pay for health insurance (although it costs less, so I don't get it actually).
And no, he's taxing everyone, but it's .95% so it's no big deal.
Also, the biggest bullsht argument is "it's unconstitutional."
The constitution also clearly states "blacks are 2/3 of a person," "alcohol was prohibited,", "slavery was legal." etc.
Also, it doesn't clearly prohibit compelling one to purchase life saving objects, so it's a non-topical argument, as well as not a piece of offense on the structuring system itself.

Amendments 13,14,15,21

My point exactly.
Thank you for supporting my argument, there is ROOM FOR AMENDMENTS!
Along with that, no clear prohibition, so fundamentally it is allowed.

[Love]

oh the irony. you try to assert your viewpoint by name calling and don't know anything about the matter at hand. you are prime example of ignorance. if you knew a single thing about free market Austrian Economics, we wouldn't be having this conversation. go educate yourself on it, and try not to do it with the Keynesian-infested books your school gave/gives you.

You and me will play a game later, the name of the game is I make you look like an ass in my neverending stroke of ego, I am sure you are qualified to call me ignorant and have reason to think my opinions come from books and I am echoing other's opinions ( ... ). I should probably start this off by pointing out how above average your intelligence is that you present to offer real world problems with perfect world type of methods, also if I was you I would make sure I actually understand what the free market is before engaging myself because I asure you, this is where you will first fail, there goes my fair warning highly educated person, gl...

[BuDo]

It's capitalism at it's finest the rich get richer, the poorer gets left for dead if they can't afford health care

Fixed

OT: I bet the americans who strongly opposed this bill are now feeling quite ill and need some medical attention after seeing it passed.

[Love]

It seems I don't have to respond, this video does an adequate job:

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