Discussion about Gays and their Rights. Mature ONLY! 18+ pls

[Goseki]

How can they think it's right for them to do that? They quote the Bible saying that it is forbidden and that they should not associate with sinners, but it's one thing to not associate and another to judge and discriminate against.

Where do Christians discriminate gays? Christians are followers, the people that make these decisions are a bunch of old men in foreign countries that have never seen anything below a belly before. If anything your discriminating Christians for something most of them don't mind. Plus there are other religions out there that are much worst on gays then Christians would ever be. I attend a Catholic highschool and there are several gays there and no one really cares.

Are you kidding? Maybe it's because I live in the south, but many Baptist and Methodist churches that I went to weren't exactly gay pride friendly. Usually when they're mentioned in the sermons, it wasn't blessed are the gays and let us pray for them. It's more, look at the gays and how they have corrupted society. If you want to find videos, just youtube gay christian protest. Catholicism tends to avoid talking about anything that has to do with sex. Hence they think condoms are the devil, and getting AIDS is fun.

[inky]

Before I end up telling anyone to shove that jar of horse shit back up to their colon, I'd rather let my opinion out and leave it there. So, aside from what I mentioned several posts before...

Being gay is not just a learned behavior. It cannot be changed. Sure, aside from the genetic factor, environmental factors (interaction, culture, society) also play into account but you need to have that certain genetic trait in order to be a homosexual. Shit, I was pretty much raised by women in a Catholic home - we have gay friends and gay family members - but did I turn out to be more attracted to men? No. I'm not gonna' tell you to read research or books about it if you don't believe it since chances are, a. you won't, b. you would fail to acknowledge it anyway. So next time you want to tell someone that they should "become straight," I suggest you try going against your nature (instinct) for a bit and see how it feels like.

Where do Christians discriminate gays? Christians are followers, the people that make these decisions are a bunch of old men in foreign countries that have never seen anything below a belly before. If anything your discriminating Christians for something most of them don't mind. Plus there are other religions out there that are much worst on gays then Christians would ever be. I attend a Catholic highschool and there are several gays there and no one really cares.

I went to a school where people are 'free to be gay' as well but that doesn't mean that the discrimination does not exist - no matter how subtle. Which is the main reason why most states still haven't passed the bill allowing gay marriage. Now I'm not saying that all Christians discriminate against gays but there's an overwhelming majority that do (subtle or outspoken); A lot of them seem to go with the "I-think-its-okay-that-they're-gay-but-I-don't-want-them-married-in-my-church" mentality.

Well, that's it for now. Until the topic has radically moved onto another subject, I'd rather not add anything to this. I'm kind of tired of riding buses headed for brick walls.

[chickenfeather]

I wouldn't say it's just Christians that are discriminating...
My thinking is that something is for the greater "good" if you can give that something to everyone and they will be better off because of it. So, I will ask myself, "If being gay/lesbian is good and the entire world was gay/lesbian, would everyone be better off because of it?" The response I came up with would be that the human race would be extinct within a few generations.

However, if you look at the individual instead of humanity, then I can see a reason why someone would be gay/lesbian. You can have sex with as many people as you want without worrying about getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant. Religious/Moral people might frown upon this, but it is natural to want to have desire to engage in the action that propagates our species even if you are just "wasting" it in someone's rectal cavity.

Of course, I'm making the assumption that there is a thoughtful reason behind being gay/lesbian. It might simply be a population control mechanism or an imbalance/defect with the gender determining X/Y chromosome. Since we all start out as "females" and we differentiate into our respective genders solely because of the ratio of testosterone to estrogen, there might be a grey area in the ratios between male and female that would cause gay/lesbian behavior. Who knows?

Either way, I'm not too concerned with hating gays/lesbians. They can do whatever they want as long as I'm not forced to embrace it. However, the trend that seems to be headed towards the extreme of "if a gay guy gyrates their groin in your face, you should happily accept or you are being discriminatory" is wayyy out of line.

Offtopic (possibly offensive to gays due to stereotype use but I don't really care):
Code: Select all

[Psychedeelic]

I've learned in school that being gay/lesbian is something you are born with, so just imagine being born in the wrong body.. most of you here are guys, so imagine being a girl, but still liking girls.. what would you do then, kill yourself?

but I do hate people who come at TV, grow some silicon boobs and scream all the time "I'm gaaaay I need attention!!" like wtf.. ok, you're gay.. your business, not mine.. acting normal and admitting, without showing off all the time, that's perfectly normal and I have nothing against this

and why are all Christians usually associated to total jesus freaks? or was this only related to what should a christian theorectically think? But yeah, this is one of the things I will never understand... if it's something you're born with, why get discriminated?

[Toasty]

Camp people deserve to be discriminated.


Gay people, meh who cares. Around my area noone cares if your gay. Camp is what annoys people.

[MrJoey]

This one time at band camp.......

[Deadsolid]

I'm Christian and I dont discriminate against gay people. It is more of a political thing now.

[DumboDii]

How can they think it's right for them to do that? They quote the Bible saying that it is forbidden and that they should not associate with sinners, but it's one thing to not associate and another to judge and discriminate against.

Where do Christians discriminate gays? Christians are followers, the people that make these decisions are a bunch of old men in foreign countries that have never seen anything below a belly before. If anything your discriminating Christians for something most of them don't mind. Plus there are other religions out there that are much worst on gays then Christians would ever be. I attend a Catholic highschool and there are several gays there and no one really cares.

Are you kidding? Maybe it's because I live in the south, but many Baptist and Methodist churches that I went to weren't exactly gay pride friendly. Usually when they're mentioned in the sermons, it wasn't blessed are the gays and let us pray for them. It's more, look at the gays and how they have corrupted society. If you want to find videos, just youtube gay christian protest. Catholicism tends to avoid talking about anything that has to do with sex. Hence they think condoms are the devil, and getting AIDS is fun.

Erm. Baptists and Methodists are Christians too...

[John_Doe]

Meh I just wrote a tl;dr walloftext but I'm not going to post it. It's an endless discussion and I doubt anyone actually reads this thread with an open mind and an expectation to actually change their sexual/religion interests/looks.

It's like the existence of God.

You can not proove God exists physically for he does not exist that way to the human eye. And you know for he does not exist that way to the human eye. how? Damn your like totally beating all those religious scholars and philosophers out there.
You can not proove God does not exist because all you have is proof that God does not exist physically but we already knew that. The FSM doesn't exist physically therefore you cannot prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist, your logic is ridiculous.

You can proove an existence of something which can not be seen, heard, smelt, tasted, or felt by any of the 5 senses. Maybe in philosophy or theology you can argue the existence of the Pink Elephant, but do fill me in on this point? O I get it shove down it the throat of the masses and threaten them with eternal damnation if they don't believe in it? Am I close? Please do post your arguement for proving something which can not be seen, heard, smelt, tasted, or felt by any of the 5 senses.
But, you CAN NOT proove an existence of something which can not be seen, heard, smelt, tasted, felt by any of the 5 senses. You don't have to, by default it would be up to the one who purpose the pink elephant in the first place to prove that it exist.

So I guess it all comes down to having Faith.

Ask yourselves this;

Would you rather live 70 years of full of (counting some stuff which is considered a sin in Islam) having sex with everyone you can see [or just with your girlfriends, your choice], drinking, dating, kissing, living a homosexual life, or even becoming a porn star and end up dieing, finding out there IS a God and suffering infinite years of pain in hell? And you know godless people lives this way how?

Or would you rahter live 70 years without stuff which are not really important in life, Like faith in a irrational bronze age magical being in the sky? not missing out on a lot, sacrificing some of your life for God and dieing to find out that there is actually a God and living FOREVER in heaven? Being able to die is what gives anyone a purpose, if you could live for infinity, what would be the point of living? Let's humor that heaven exist, why would it be called heaven? You and everybody around you have their own faults, disagreements, and hypocrisy, truely can't be a perfect place. Just be like any city on Earth but for eternity.

Of course there is a tiny possibility that there was no God but would you have missed up on a LOT? Not really. Taking 30 mins, 60 mins max away from your day to give to God, 30 days of fasting from sunrise to sundawn in a year, giving a one week sacrifice (once in your life) going to a city, walking 7 rounds around a box and doing similar stuff which will tire you a bit, paying a small % of your gain per year to the poor and living a what is mostly known in almost everyone's moral "Nice guy". And we know godless people don't do this how? Assuming that godless people don't have the same level of generosity as people with faith is kinda ignorant. Why can't you just be generous by nature/choice why must you need a invisible Deity to compel you do good?

Would you risk infinity time in hell just for a couple of "bj"s and a couple of beers?
Are we assuming that all godless individuals are godless because of [b]couple of "bj"s and a couple of beers?[/u] or am I just interepting that statment wrong? Also believing in god just to safeguard yourself from hell like its a gamble or something is really not a good reason.

and lol, this ended up being a walloftext as well.

The assumption that godless people don't have the same level or more of generosity, morality, good, etc. as religious people is so ignorant and stupid.

[EvGa]

Ask yourselves this;

Would you rather live 70 years of full of (counting some stuff which is considered a sin in Islam) having sex with everyone you can see [or just with your girlfriends, your choice], drinking, dating, kissing, living a homosexual life, or even becoming a porn star and end up dieing, finding out there IS a God and suffering infinite years of pain in hell?

Or would you rahter live 70 years without stuff which are not really important in life, not missing out on a lot, sacrificing some of your life for God and dieing to find out that there is actually a God and living FOREVER in heaven?

Of course there is a tiny possibility that there was no God but would you have missed up on a LOT? Not really. Taking 30 mins, 60 mins max away from your day to give to God, 30 days of fasting from sunrise to sundawn in a year, giving a one week sacrifice (once in your life) going to a city, walking 7 rounds around a box and doing similar stuff which will tire you a bit, paying a small % of your gain per year to the poor and living a what is mostly known in almost everyone's moral "Nice guy".

Would you risk infinity time in hell just for a couple of "bj"s and a couple of beers?

This is basically Pascal's Wager. Guess what, it fails miserably.

[EvGa]

This is basically Pascal's Wager. Guess what, it fails miserably.

Yea I think I just made shit there Don't follow my advice. It was just a sudden thought I have. It was a personal thought. Never heard from it any religion advisers or any teachers.

That's fine lol. Picking a deity to worship "just to be safe" goes against most theistic religions in the first place. If God is an omnipotent all knowing being.. would he not see that you are being insincere in your faith?

Also.. out of 2000+ proclaimed Gods.. what are the chances you pick the "right" one in the first place??

Arg, we got off topic.. who'd have guessed..

[Reise]

Like what kind of God would have something he has invented for humankinds to reproduce with a create he has created

A smart god who is in touch with his interests lol.

[/Pi]

This is basically Pascal's Wager. Guess what, it fails miserably.

LOL

[NuclearSilo]

one gay may not achieve anything, but one billion of gays would be a good subject to debate.

moreover, everything is bind to the nature, everything is under control of the nature. If smt weird happened, it's because the nature allowed it to happen. There is no such thing is "unnatural".

[Toasty]

one gay may not achieve anything, but one billion of gays would be a good subject to debate.

moreover, everything is bind to the nature, everything is under control of the nature. If smt weird happened, it's because the nature allowed it to happen. There is no such thing is "unnatural".

Ofcourse there is.

[NuclearSilo]

no there isn't

[Elements]

That is an awfully big generalisation.

The vast majority of Christians dont discriminate against homosexuals, while you may be able to say that the religion as a whole isn't exactly gay friendly you could also say that about society in general. I cant think of any major religion that is gay friendly, the reason for that is because all major religions were developed and founded at a time when it was looked upon as strange and wrong to be homosexual and it was therefore carried forward through their teachings.

However there are an awfully lot of homosexuals who would consider themselves to be christian, as with many things the hard liners on this issues are the radicals of the faith most people whom you would talk to would have no problem with homosexuals, its just those peopledon't go around having marches and demonstrations so they don't get seen.

[ryan1166]

All Christians don't hate homosexuals. It's just that some people like to contort words and make them bend to what they want them to.

Marriage is one of the 8 sacraments, that states that it matrimony is a uniting of 2 people as one through the power of Christ and the Catholic church. Back when the scriptures and the bible was written, there very few homosexuals, and if someone was homosexual, they were ridiculed or killed.
This lead people to believe that Marriage is a sacred unity between a man and a woman.

I, being a Catholic, believe in this. It's not that I hate gays or I don't think that they don't deserve a matrimony of some sort, I just believe in tradition of the church.

Maybe the solution is a different kind of a marital status for same sex couples, something like a service for a man and a man to become life partners.. Something like that would be more reasonable, and it wouldn't anger traditional Christians.


Grade 9 Religion FTW.

`Ryan.

[John_Doe]

Hmm your original post has nothing to do with Islam don't know why your even bringing it up, and also Baro misunderstood the point of the verse for my point about apostasy, so your statment about me not understanding your book redundant. Also no where in your original post do you say "what if religion was true" so therefore I did nothing wrong when I responded to your post. I'll wrote a better responds when I get home.

[woutR]

More of a moral thing for me. I dont care about gays though long as they don't bother me. Marriage though should be sacred, between 1 man and 1 woman, anything else it doesn't count as marriage.

Why would it bother you when two gay men marry? It does not affect your life in any way whatsoever. I can know, I live in the Netherlands. Gay people marry here all the time, and guess what, it hasn't changed my life a bit. Really, there is absolutely nothing that has changed for me.

For gay people on the other hand, things have changed. They are finally on equal grounds with everyone else. And why should they not be?
An atheist marriage is also not 'sacred', why would you condone that, and not a marriage of a gay couple?

But in conclusion: gay marriage does not and will not influence your life in any way. Gay people will be in your life no matter if they can marry or not. Why not let them be on equal ground with everyone else?

[TheDrop]

That is an awfully big generalisation.

The vast majority of Christians dont discriminate against homosexuals, while you may be able to say that the religion as a whole isn't exactly gay friendly you could also say that about society in general. I cant think of any major religion that is gay friendly, the reason for that is because all major religions were developed and founded at a time when it was looked upon as strange and wrong to be homosexual and it was therefore carried forward through their teachings.

However there are an awfully lot of homosexuals who would consider themselves to be christian, as with many things the hard liners on this issues are the radicals of the faith most people whom you would talk to would have no problem with homosexuals, its just those peopledon't go around having marches and demonstrations so they don't get seen.

/winstehthread

[poehalcho]

I think with these kind of things the simple answer is 'they don't think'. It's not required to go into it any further. These kind of things are made up by people who fear that which they don't know or don't like and want to stop everyone from practicing it, even if others could enjoy it.

[EvGa]

LOL

ROFL

That's a good place to start ^^ As I recall, you're an atheist right. Start by narrowing down from those 2000+ Gods if you actually do believe in a higher power and not the theories of evolution, natural selection. Even if you do believe in them, you can still look them up just for the curiousty of it.

I would highly recommend you first eliminating the Mayans, Greeks and all since they have ridicioulsly "humanlike" characteristics. Like what kind of God would have something he has invented for humankinds to reproduce with a create he has created (Talking about the Greek Gods having sex with the mortals) ^^.

Also, at first I'm not telling you "Hey, come to Islam. It's the right religion and all.". I would just like it if you actually believe in a God and see for yourself the loopwholes and contradictions in other religions and I want you to understand Islam for yourself.

Also, I know my lack of ability to argue comes from my lack of reading books I'm way under self-educated in my opinion.

I once considered myself a Christian, until I educated myself and realized how utterly absurd and contradictory it was. Then realized that applies to most all religions.. I "believe" in the Theory of Evolution and natural selection and quantum physics and all that jazz because well... it's all based on empirical scientific evidence. Gods, religion, not so much.

That's just my opinion.

Element made a really good response pertaining to the OP.

[Achilles990]

Last time i read the bible i didnt see no Adam and Steve in there, Idc much for gays along as they dont start bs about them geting merried, thats just men and women, you wana do something like that call something else like Parnership...

[PhoenixRider]

I'm Muslim and it comes down to a simple fact of it not being natural. Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as a gay gene and it's simply a behavior that is picked up at a young age. It's an unfortunate behavior that is absolutely unnatural.

Many Muslims practice the social custom of circumcising young muslim womens' genitalia at a young age in order to stop them from having an enjoyable sexual life, which turns out to be an extremely painful experience when they do have sex. Scientifically speaking, circumcisions are not natural.

More of a moral thing for me. I dont care about gays though long as they don't bother me. Marriage though should be sacred, between 1 man and 1 woman, anything else it doesn't count as marriage.

If marriage is so sacred, you would think the bible thumpers would go after outlawing divorce first.

So do farked up people with different customs. circumcising women is a damned messed up cultural idiocy for people within the region that they live, it is not a part of Islam and is looked down upon as a monstrous act.

My point is simple and correct, there is no proof of a gene that makes humans homosexual at birth. I believe it is something that is learned at a young age and for that reason I choose not to accept it. People seem to disagree with me that it isn't something you attain at birth but sadly only state their opinion instead of evidence.

Also, there are a lot of things wrong with Christianity. This issue isn't one of them.

[Elements]

The only reason why homosexual couples cant get married is because of societies miss-held views that marriage is some sort of sacred bond that should only be shared between a man and a women. That idea is simply out dated and wrong, society has been developed that way because of the long held discrimination and persecution of the homosexual community, if it wasn't for this taking place in the past it wouldn't be seen as a the strange and mind bending thing that it is now.

Living in the UK I have seen civil partnerships for along time now and they havent affected society here in any way shape or form, if anything they have enhanced it, however I still wish that homosexual couples could get properly married.

I myself don't see marriage as something that is shared between a man and a women, I see it as a commitment from one person to another of their love and dedication for one another.

I think that should be something that other people should think about. It isn't just a man and a women who can fall in love and spend the rest of their life together, so why is it that it is only a man and a women who can make a formal and legal commitment and display of it.

I understand that some people may find it uncomfortable but can you honestly say that you think it is right that a loving couple shouldn't be allowed to get married simply because they are of the same sex.

On this matter America is lagging behind at an alarming rate and I think this is largely due to its out spoken religious community, that doesn't realise their country was founded on the separation of church and state so that all people could be treated equally. America elected its first black president, something that even a decade ago alot people would have said wouldn't have happened in their life time. However being only 22 I can happily say that I am sure that if a President doesn't make a stand and put the religious community in its place that I wont see a homosexual president in my lifetime. You may say what does having a homosexual president have to do with homosexual marriage, well if you think that a gay president would be elected before gay marriage was legalised you have some issues lol.

I think America has alot of issues pertaining to its religious community that it has to address before it can move on and develop further as a society and as a "beacon" to the rest of the world, I believe as an outsider looking in that somebody needs to step in and let people know that church and state are separate and that the churches views on a subject should have no affect on its legal standing. However this wont happen simply because it would be political suicide for who ever did it, but it would give them fame for the rest of time so I guess the cost is balanced out in the end.

I cannot say that one should change their vies on a subject simply because they differ from my own and I cannot balme them for having those views because those are the views that society has in many cause told them to have depending on the community that they grew up in. However if you can honestly say that in your heart you think it is right to not allow a couple to get married simply because they are of the same sex then I would have to say that you are wrong simply because it is the age old family value of treat everybody equaly.

[M3K0S]

jesus never said anything about gays, it was the people that wrote it after the new testament came out -.-
if people love each other they have every right to get married

[Reise]

Does anyone have the study that says homosexuality is genetically defined? I hear about it all the time but I've never seen it.

[Goseki]

Last time i read the bible i didnt see no Adam and Steve in there, Idc much for gays along as they dont start bs about them geting merried, thats just men and women, you wana do something like that call something else like Parnership...

That's perfect except in the eye of the law in the United States. A partnership* if that's what you meant, is fine except when someone dies. They don't get any of the benefits of a marriage. No transferable benefits from work, no automatic will when someone dies unexpectedly, no tax breaks. So it's still being discriminatory. You can feel free to call it a Partnership, just good luck getting every company in the US/world to add that to their contracts so it's fair, and good luck adding Partnership to count in the law as well. Now all that work instead of just saying yes for gays to marry...

All Christians don't hate homosexuals. It's just that some people like to contort words and make them bend to what they want them to.

Marriage is one of the 8 sacraments, that states that it matrimony is a uniting of 2 people as one through the power of Christ and the Catholic church. Back when the scriptures and the bible was written, there very few homosexuals, and if someone was homosexual, they were ridiculed or killed.
This lead people to believe that Marriage is a sacred unity between a man and a woman.

I, being a Catholic, believe in this. It's not that I hate gays or I don't think that they don't deserve a matrimony of some sort, I just believe in tradition of the church.

Maybe the solution is a different kind of a marital status for same sex couples, something like a service for a man and a man to become life partners.. Something like that would be more reasonable, and it wouldn't anger traditional Christians.


Grade 9 Religion FTW.

`Ryan.

Grade 9 religion from a Catholic school? I wouldn't bother studying religion until you're in a University. Be amazed what you will discover was hidden from you.

1) Marriage is spread out throughout the world long long before Christianity became wide-spread. It is prevalent in pretty much every culture ever created. Hardly think marriage is a result of Christianity.

2) Gays were ridiculed? Last I check, one of the biggest society/empire, the Romans, part of the reason Christianity got spread out so quickly. It was pretty common for homosexuality between Roman men as the active role and non-roman or slaves as the passive. It wasn't really until Christianity was adopted that it became more common to put it in a negative light and eventually punishable by death.

3) See other post as to why homosexuality was not so prevalent when the societies were small and there was no population pressure.

[Goseki]

Does anyone have the study that says homosexuality is genetically defined? I hear about it all the time but I've never seen it.

This one talks about how mutations causing hormones of the opposite sex to be overly expressed led to sexual preference of the rats to change.
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

The rat population is a popular genetics example. I'm not sure which study exactly, but it was used several times in my General Genetics and Molecular Bio classes in college.

Here's an excerpt about a discussion as to how it might not be genetic, but due to environmental stress caused from a high population.

It is a very complicated situation not to attack you but its just not as simple as , well their homosexual so how can evolution be true if they have to procreate to continue homosexuality.
1. The example above, the whole there have gay people for a very long time in history who marry to women anyway for a plethora of reasons, I have two friends myself with gay dads.
2. How is one Homosexual? in the sense how is it they became, become that way.
One of the trains of thoughts is sort of like the mentioned above with the study of rats, stress, and androgens.
Androgens- are hormones found naturally in the body, but during fetal development is responsible depending when its introduced for the male or female characteristics of the child. i.e. whether the gonads drop and what their stem cells become. also certain changes in brain characteristics. While the child's sex is already chosen by random genetic happenings there are still a lot of varying things during development that produce different sexual results.
The androgens mentioned are often introduced largely by means of the mother via placenta if the mother like the rats happens to be very very stressed out at certain times during fetal development she might actually cause more androgen production then usual. This of course could have a myriad effects on the child's development down the road one could be certain changes seen in homosexual male's hypothalamus that differ from a heterosexuals hypothalamus.
If this be the case its environment that causes homosexuality by stressing any mammal mother, in that way its not really at issue with evolution at all. In fact I would say that evolution is almost powerless to stop it.