party rogue's role found explained and resolved, finally

[Truie]

theres no such thing as a party rogue, especially not a dagger rogue. check the guides and tuts and youll find some pretty decent rogue guides

AAAAHHHHH

GOOD TOPIC !!!!!!

yesterday i was in a party with a good 2H warrior
penon party
the man pulled so much aggro that the party penons used to run from me to him after i had killed twice their health already.
i was using daggers, had the dagger-desperate buff on, and was wearing sun daggers and i have a decent +str bonus overall (27)
so i'm doing good damage even for a rogue.

my point is... the 2H warrior skill tree has the vital increase skill which increases aggro by 300%

that's more than enough to keep aggro from a daggers rogue, i've tested it conclusively

imagine, you kill half of a pt mob alone by yourself, and suddenly it runs to your warrior just because the warrior is hitting another mob nearby !

that's aggro...

so... i've been told since back in june 08 that rogues cant do shit in pt except luring, because xbow does less dmg than wizards and daggers aggro the mobs from the warrior.

well it is not true
i was wondering if joymax had screwed up the party-rogue entirely

but no... the solution is simple : the daggers rogue needs a 2H warrior buffed with vital increase

(copy pasted from the questions and answers section)

[Oryx]

Rogues do damage on 1 mob at a time, wiz can hit up to 8 at a time. That's why wiz is preferred in Euro party. Rogues aren't useless in party, it's that just other builds have more of an important role.

[aishsharma]

imo xbow is still better for luring and i prefer dagger rogue to guard the cleric since daggers take aggro and their dps is pretty high with a good cleric even DD wont get you killed

[warfire6395]

i feel honoured.

as a rogue youll never be taken in a party above a wizard, UNLESS ur completely sunned up and can hit higher then a wiz.

a xbow is very good for luring. but youll hardly ever find a party that works that way, i might be trippin balls but my server is CLERIC/WARRIOR/WIZ for 90+ parties.

imagine, you kill half of a pt mob alone by yourself, and suddenly it runs to your warrior just because the warrior is hitting another mob nearby !

that's aggro...

thats aggro increase, all warrior skills have it EVERYTIME a warrior hits somethign their aggro increases. and what u said about a rogue skill doing it, well it doesnt, unless the warrior isnt holding the aggro.

[Truie]

i see no one who answered my post understood what i wrote.

Rogues do damage on 1 mob at a time, wiz can hit up to 8 at a time. That's why wiz is preferred in Euro party. Rogues aren't useless in party, it's that just other builds have more of an important role.

I said "useless" as an exageration.
To me being lurer hardly constitutes a party-role for a whole class... and it only applies to xbow rogues. AND warriors are lurers too, arguably better than rogues.

imo xbow is still better for luring

no kidding !?

and i prefer dagger rogue to guard the cleric since daggers take aggro and their dps is pretty high with a good cleric even DD wont get you killed

Guarding the cleric is fun but the warrior should do it and does it better.
Also, I can do that with DD on because I'm full sox with some suns and soms but normal rogues can't because they can't tank party-mobs with DD on. And without DD on you're short on aggro to guard the cleric because if the cleric is good he pulls much aggro.

i feel honoured.

Why?

as a rogue youll never be taken in a party above a wizard, UNLESS ur completely sunned up and can hit higher then a wiz.

If you have DD on you should do more damage than a wiz on single targets (this warrants some testing) to keep things consistent with the definition of a daggers-rogue (short ranged backstabbing damage dealer)
If your warrior is 2H with vital increase on he will keep the aggro from you.
Problem solved, party-rogue's role found.

a xbow is very good for luring. but youll hardly ever find a party that works that way, i might be trippin balls but my server is CLERIC/WARRIOR/WIZ for 90+ parties.

I dont know, ask the dude who came up with the super xbow-rogue lurer story. Sounded convincing. Maybe you server is full of botters and has hardly ever seen a real good euro party.
I have been in parties that would make the sro-players population drool and wet themselves if they saw them merely on video. The game is very different depending on the competence of the people you play with. I'm on Venus so I've been in such parties, but only when we were in a legit union. I dont think i'll ever see such parties again, also because the guy who made it all happen isnt playing anymore.
If your server has few legit players it sort of cant have good euro parties.

imagine, you kill half of a pt mob alone by yourself, and suddenly it runs to your warrior just because the warrior is hitting another mob nearby !
that's aggro...

thats aggro increase, all warrior skills have it EVERYTIME a warrior hits somethign their aggro increases. and what u said about a rogue skill doing it, well it doesnt, unless the warrior isnt holding the aggro.

No... what i meant by "that's aggro..." is "that's super strong aggro", not "that's the definition of what aggro is".

I know about the aggro and the taunt attributes of warrior skills, it just happens that i have never ever seen a warrior pulling aggro from a party mob that's been halfway killed by another dude, WITHOUT TOUCHING THE MOB.

My whole point is that if a warrior can do that, grabbing the aggro from a mob i have, alone, killed halway through, THEN he can keep aggro on whatever he is hitting. Take into account that i do high damage for a rogue my lvl. (sun daggers and +27 str).
So if he can do it to me, he can do it to pretty much any rogue.

That's why i called this evidence conclusive.
The warrior can keep the aggro from the rogue who is on full damage mode, provided the warrior is 2H with vital increase on.

Now are you guys gonna try to read what you're replying to, before replying?
I repeated everything in this post here, but i'll end up giving up if you remain unwilling to at least understand what i'm talking about.

I'll reiterate, it just doesnt seem logical to me that whoever designed these very good SRO euro game mechanics would have screwed up the rogues-class by limiting it to being a xbow lurer in parties.

Each class has its role in parties, some thing it does that no other class can do as well. ...except the rogue? Give me a break.
If the game designers were incompetent maybe, but they've shown in every other point that they are very good at what they do.

So that's why I was suspecting that it's the players who havent found out what the party-rogue's role is. And vital increase solved it.
Try it...

I can stay contented with the xbow-rogue being a lurer, why not. But the daggers-rogue HAD TO be able to use DD while not taking the aggro from the warrior.
It works. Just have a 2H warrior with vital increase on and voilà;-)

Now we just need to run or find some testing of rogue-damage versus wizard-damage to seal the deal and convince everyone that daggers-rogues are an asset in parties.
And of course the 2H warrior needs a good enough cleric to keep him alive.

[Nitro]

If you have 2h Warrior in party, you are doing it wrong already.

[ryUm]

If you have 2h Warrior in party, you are doing it wrong already.

as long as the warrior can tank the mobs quite good and dont use knockdowns there is nothing wrong with it

[BlitZ]

Rogue's role in a pt is luring. Not damage dealing nor tanking.
I would never take a rogue over a wiz. Not even a rogue with sun daggers.
Imo rogues can replace 1 warrior since a wiz with a decent gear can survive with only pq/protect or phy/mag fence.
Thats the way it is.

[Mirosuke]

Rogue's role in a pt is luring. Not damage dealing nor tanking.
I would never take a rogue over a wiz. Not even a rogue with sun daggers.
Imo rogues can replace 1 warrior since a wiz with a decent gear can survive with only pq/protect or phy/mag fence.
Thats the way it is.

Because they have a lure skills, means they have to lure?

/facepalm

[Nitro]

Rogue's role in a pt is luring. Not damage dealing nor tanking.
I would never take a rogue over a wiz. Not even a rogue with sun daggers.
Imo rogues can replace 1 warrior since a wiz with a decent gear can survive with only pq/protect or phy/mag fence.
Thats the way it is.

Because they have a lure skills, means they have to lure?

/facepalm

No, its because thats what they are best at.

[warfire6395]

i still dont see what your getting at.. are you for rogue in parties or against?

[Mirosuke]

Rogue's role in a pt is luring. Not damage dealing nor tanking.
I would never take a rogue over a wiz. Not even a rogue with sun daggers.
Imo rogues can replace 1 warrior since a wiz with a decent gear can survive with only pq/protect or phy/mag fence.
Thats the way it is.

Because they have a lure skills, means they have to lure?

/facepalm

No, its because thats what they are best at.

I don't agree. Rogues are best for Damage dealers because their "drug buffs" (such as desesperated and so). Sure, he can lure with the xbow, but if hes a dagger better be dd.
I taxi some of my guildies at Niya Snipers, and im only 76. Daggers ftw

i still dont see what your getting at.. are you for rogue in parties or against?

I'm in with rogues daggers. hes like a wizard, except he has the ability to tank a bit, and have more Attack rating but lacks of aoe skills.

[Nitro]

Rogues dont have AoE, and Wizard's DPS is higher than Rogues.
Wizards are better replacement for Rogues damage-wise.
/thread

[Oryx]

i see no one who answered my post understood what i wrote.
[...]
If you have DD on you should do more damage than a wiz on single targets (this warrants some testing) to keep things consistent with the definition of a daggers-rogue (short ranged backstabbing damage dealer)
If your warrior is 2H with vital increase on he will keep the aggro from you.
Problem solved, party-rogue's role found.

I did understand and I answered your point. Unless your 'sun dagger + 27 str' rogue can kill X number of party mobs faster than a typical wiz, I don't see why any party would want you if they could have a wiz instead. Even if you can, that party role would only apply to you, and not all the other rogues who don't have sosun or som.

I have been in parties that would make the sro-players population drool and wet themselves if they saw them merely on video.

Great, then you can tell us what usually happens in a proper party. Do the bards have physical damage increase dance or magical? If there are only 2 bards, they would have magical dance up, and so it makes sense to have wizards instead of wizards and 1 rogue.

I'll reiterate, it just doesnt seem logical to me that whoever designed these very good SRO euro game mechanics would have screwed up the rogues-class by limiting it to being a xbow lurer in parties.

Each class has its role in parties, some thing it does that no other class can do as well. ...except the rogue? Give me a break.
If the game designers were incompetent maybe, but they've shown in every other point that they are very good at what they do.

The general consensus is that the game was not very well designed. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a need to bot your way to cap and pfarm 2m sp before you even start leveling.

[BlitZ]

Rogue's role in a pt is luring. Not damage dealing nor tanking.
I would never take a rogue over a wiz. Not even a rogue with sun daggers.
Imo rogues can replace 1 warrior since a wiz with a decent gear can survive with only pq/protect or phy/mag fence.
Thats the way it is.

Because they have a lure skills, means they have to lure?

/facepalm

They don't have to lure but they will be useless in a pt if they don't.

I don't agree. Rogues are best for Damage dealers because their "drug buffs" (such as desesperated and so). Sure, he can lure with the xbow, but if hes a dagger better be dd.
I taxi some of my guildies at Niya Snipers, and im only 76. Daggers ftw

Daggers don't have as good DPS as wiz.
Daggers don't have AOEs as wiz does.
Daggers don't deal as much damage as wiz does.
We are discussing party play here. Not plvl.
Bards are great plvlers... Should we replace Wizards for Bards in a pt?

[antics]

wut i do is lure the hell out of mobs then when i have enough mobs i use that poisn circle the one that has that 15m diameter
it works really gud too
im stil trying ot better the rogue class
i just wish scorn couldve been used on mobs too and not just players

[Truie]

If you have 2h Warrior in party, you are doing it wrong already.

i've just seen that vital increase works with all warrior weapons.
better so !
any-weapon warrior can out-aggro a rogue provided he has vital increase on

[Ningyotsukai-san]

Eh ...like I said in some other thread I can't remember at the moment

Each build was made specifically for a role. You have your Aggro Holder (Warrior), Lurer (Rogue), Damage Dealers (wizards / warlocks / battle bard), Buffers (bards), and Healer (cleric).

Now, looking at it...there's a, what I'll call, shackles on each build in it's main use and their sub's use.

Warriors can switch their specific mastery weapons without their party buffs disappearing, but as soon as they switch to another weapon outside that block, they're gone....can practically pull in the same conclusion, with varying results, to each of the other mastery trees.

I'll disagree with warriors luring better than rogues. Look at it this way ~

Aggro Holding != Luring

in the sense: Warriors go...taunt, taunt, taunt, and taunt some more mobs, just enough so they can tank. Then they come back to the group, without having to transfer the aggro.....Rogues can practically stay near the group, as well as the aggro holder, and continuously pull in aggro to the holder for the group to kill.

Of course, rogues don't have much of a shackle....lure in some mobs, see that the group can handle 'em ...either switch to your sub and use that, or get daggers, do a lil' damage to single targets and go back to luring.

You might not like it, but each build was specifically made for a reason.

Rogue's main use in pts is to lure mobs. Warrior's is to tank the mobs...you get the point.
Though, rogues can act as a secondary damage dealer, but for lures, wizards and warlocks are more to the whole's liking in disposing of them in a timely fashion.

The main reason, concerning people I knew, for not having rogues lure in their pts was because of the aggro switching from the rogue to the ints.

[Truie]

i see no one who answered my post understood what i wrote.
[...]
If you have DD on you should do more damage than a wiz on single targets (this warrants some testing) to keep things consistent with the definition of a daggers-rogue (short ranged backstabbing damage dealer)
If your warrior is 2H with vital increase on he will keep the aggro from you.
Problem solved, party-rogue's role found.

I did understand and I answered your point. Unless your 'sun dagger + 27 str' rogue can kill X number of party mobs faster than a typical wiz, I don't see why any party would want you if they could have a wiz instead. Even if you can, that party role would only apply to you, and not all the other rogues who don't have sosun or som.

I have been in parties that would make the sro-players population drool and wet themselves if they saw them merely on video.

Great, then you can tell us what usually happens in a proper party. Do the bards have physical damage increase dance or magical? If there are only 2 bards, they would have magical dance up, and so it makes sense to have wizards instead of wizards and 1 rogue.

I'll reiterate, it just doesnt seem logical to me that whoever designed these very good SRO euro game mechanics would have screwed up the rogues-class by limiting it to being a xbow lurer in parties.

Each class has its role in parties, some thing it does that no other class can do as well. ...except the rogue? Give me a break.
If the game designers were incompetent maybe, but they've shown in every other point that they are very good at what they do.

The general consensus is that the game was not very well designed. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a need to bot your way to cap and pfarm 2m sp before you even start leveling.

yeah dances... i had forgotten about that:-(
the game is well designed, the fact that it takes a crazy amount of time to cap is irrelevant
i'm talking about the game mechanics : classes, skills, mobs etc
they did that right, the euro update was brilliantly executed.
how could they screw up the rogue's party role nearly entirely?
at least the daggers-rogue's...
i do more damage than wizzies while saving their asses, but at my level I rarely see any dance.

[Truie]

Eh ...like I said in some other thread I can't remember at the moment

Each build was made specifically for a role. You have your Aggro Holder (Warrior), Lurer (Rogue), Damage Dealers (wizards / warlocks / battle bard), Buffers (bards), and Healer (cleric).

Now, looking at it...there's a, what I'll call, shackles on each build in it's main use and their sub's use.

Warriors can switch their specific mastery weapons without their party buffs disappearing, but as soon as they switch to another weapon outside that block, they're gone....can practically pull in the same conclusion, with varying results, to each of the other mastery trees.

I'll disagree with warriors luring better than rogues. Look at it this way ~

Aggro Holding != Luring

in the sense: Warriors go...taunt, taunt, taunt, and taunt some more mobs, just enough so they can tank. Then they come back to the group, without having to transfer the aggro.....Rogues can practically stay near the group, as well as the aggro holder, and continuously pull in aggro to the holder for the group to kill.

Of course, rogues don't have much of a shackle....lure in some mobs, see that the group can handle 'em ...either switch to your sub and use that, or get daggers, do a lil' damage to single targets and go back to luring.

You might not like it, but each build was specifically made for a reason.

Rogue's main use in pts is to lure mobs. Warrior's is to tank the mobs...you get the point.
Though, rogues can act as a secondary damage dealer, but for lures, wizards and warlocks are more to the whole's liking in disposing of them in a timely fashion.

The main reason, concerning people I knew, for not having rogues lure in their pts was because of the aggro switching from the rogue to the ints.

yeah it makes sense
you dont even have to be an xbow-rogue to lure, just one point in fast shot (the long range xbow attack) and a crappy xbow are enough.
so i take it your rogue cleric build is the best option for party-rogues : spamming group heals to keep aggro.

Daggers don't have as good DPS as wiz.
Daggers don't have AOEs as wiz does.
Daggers don't deal as much damage as wiz does.

reality sucks

[Mirosuke]

I already said Rogues does not have aoe skills.
Wizard don't have Criticals. I can do the same damage with a crit as a lvl 90 wizard with life on.
So the more attack rating, more the critical and faster the mob dead is.
I'm telling you cause i'm a rogue, and hes my main. I raised her and i know how to pwn and so, grind with her.

Also, in all my party history, no one ever said to me: "men, you lure the mobs ok?"

[BlitZ]

Posted by me in the skillbar thread:

Lvl 85 Rogue/Cleric Slot 1 in F2 is for daggers and slot 9 in F1 and F2 is for vigors.

Oh wait a second... Im a rogue too!!
I know what a rogue is capable of. Don't need you to tell me.
Yes, crit does great damage but a higher constant damage is waaaay better.
Only 3 daggers attacks are "strong" while the rest isn't that great... we just use it while the others are in cooldown.
And I'm sure the partys you are in are great...
I don't like being rude but you just can't accept a simple fact.
Luring is the rogue's role in a party. You don't have to do it but I doubt that a party with a rogue insted of a wizard does very well... Nvm, I'm sure.

[Mirosuke]

I don't agree. Rogues are best for Damage dealers because their "drug buffs" (such as desesperated and so). Sure, he can lure with the xbow, but if hes a dagger better be dd.
I taxi some of my guildies at Niya Snipers, and im only 76. Daggers ftw

Bards are great plvlers... Should we replace Wizards for Bards in a pt?

So, a bard lvl 76 can powerlevel people at Niya snipers (lvl 74?)

Oh, and you sound like disliking your rogue. Really, ok, hes a lurer. But for me, i'm not used to see him doing that. Thats why people don't want rogues in their party -_-

[dutchleader]

Rogue's have been victim of bad design. Warriors lure just as fine as them , really there is like almost no difference in amount of mobs if you compare 2 luring warriors to 1 luring rogue+ 1 tank. A warrior with lv 10 fast shot even can lure alot better on his own if he's smart while he also can help tanking/buffing.

But 2 warriors is just safer. And furthermore rogue's, they deal good 1on1 dmg but lack splash. Basically their dps is really usefull at PTG's etc. Warlock+wizard+rogue on 1 party giant is awesome.

I would rather replace a rogue for a wizard then a rogue for a tank. At Peg's we did alot rogue/wiz/warlock+2bard+2 tank + cleric. The rogue could assist luring and assist dmg dealing. However to some extent he could assist tanking/interupting. As a rogue you need to use all your qualities. If you only stick with dmg dealing or only stick with luring your party and yourself are killing your own xp.

[peleee22]

theres no such thing as a party rogue, especially not a dagger rogue. check the guides and tuts and youll find some pretty decent rogue guides

AAAAHHHHH

GOOD TOPIC !!!!!!

yesterday i was in a party with a good 2H warrior
penon party
the man pulled so much aggro that the party penons used to run from me to him after i had killed twice their health already.
i was using daggers, had the dagger-desperate buff on, and was wearing sun daggers and i have a decent +str bonus overall (27)
so i'm doing good damage even for a rogue.

my point is... the 2H warrior skill tree has the vital increase skill which increases aggro by 300%

that's more than enough to keep aggro from a daggers rogue, i've tested it conclusively

imagine, you kill half of a pt mob alone by yourself, and suddenly it runs to your warrior just because the warrior is hitting another mob nearby !

that's aggro...

so... i've been told since back in june 08 that rogues cant do shit in pt except luring, because xbow does less dmg than wizards and daggers aggro the mobs from the warrior.

well it is not true
i was wondering if joymax had screwed up the party-rogue entirely

but no... the solution is simple : the daggers rogue needs a 2H warrior buffed with vital increase

(copy pasted from the questions and answers section)

I play on ksro ,made account on this forum just to reply on your post(gotta love 24h waiting period before you can post here).
First of ,it depends about what kind of party you are talking.If you mean nublet isro partys ,where few ppl run from 1 party mob to another than ya ,you can do dmg with daggers there.
In real good party thers nothing you can do with daggers.Imagine 2 lurers preferably str china chars ,can be pimped xbow rogue also(first role of rogue in pt),pulling 10-20 mobs each near str cleric (second and last role rogue/cleric can have in pt).Than str cleric uses group heals taking all agro.Thats when wizards kill all the mobs that cleric is tanking.Lets say that you are in such pt and ur using daggers.Thers 30 mobs around cleric and you hit 1 of them.At same time wiz hits 5 mobs doing more dmg to every one of them ,than you did to that 1 mob.Like i said ,daggers don't have any role in that party.Now i understand that on isro spots are crowded,so random idiots or army of bots would not let anyone gather so many mobs in 1 place.Because of that in isro daggers might have some use,but killing 1 pt mob with few ppl would be insane imo..Only thing warriors do in ksro partys is giving buffs to cleric/wizards and standing still.When cleric is good enough warriors arent even needed.

Rogue's have been victim of bad design. Warriors lure just as fine as them , really there is like almost no difference in amount of mobs if you compare 2 luring warriors to 1 luring rogue+ 1 tank. A warrior with lv 10 fast shot even can lure alot better on his own if he's smart while he also can help tanking/buffing.

Warriors lure lot slower than rogues.

[BlitZ]

I don't agree. Rogues are best for Damage dealers because their "drug buffs" (such as desesperated and so). Sure, he can lure with the xbow, but if hes a dagger better be dd.
I taxi some of my guildies at Niya Snipers, and im only 76. Daggers ftw

Bards are great plvlers... Should we replace Wizards for Bards in a pt?

So, a bard lvl 76 can powerlevel people at Niya snipers (lvl 74?)

Oh, and you sound like disliking your rogue. Really, ok, hes a lurer. But for me, i'm not used to see him doing that. Thats why people don't want rogues in their party -_-

Did I say they could? Oh that's righ... I said they were 'Great plvlers'(in general fyi). Again, we are not discussing powerlevel...
I love my rogue don't worry about it.
They don't want rogues in a pt because most of them start doing KD and KB.
I'm not telling you what to do in your pts... I'm saying that the role of the rogue is lure. I couldn't care less about what you do with your own char.

[Mirosuke]

Daggers don't do KD or KB.
Wait, next post you're going to say "Did i say Rogues with Xbow?"

I agree with dutchdesign, Rogues have been victims of bad design, they are most like a chinese character: a solo-er.
But why not inside a party for hunting uniques? Maybe a dagger rogue in a party than a wizard can kill faster o_O

[BlitZ]

Daggers don't do KD or KB.
Wait, next post you're going to say "Did i say Rogues with Xbow?"

You seem to understand my posts, yet you keep playing retarded.
And also...Wrong! That wouldn't make any sence, would it?
I will say "Did i say rogues with daggers?"
Well... did i?

[Mirosuke]

Daggers don't do KD or KB.
Wait, next post you're going to say "Did i say Rogues with Xbow?"

You seem to understand my posts, yet you keep playing retarded.
And also...Wrong! That wouldn't make any sence, would it?
I will say "Did i say rogues with daggers?"
Well... did i?

You mean it with this:

They don't want rogues in a pt because most of them start doing KD and KB.

Yeah, no sense.. it was obvious, you have to reply it?
/thread.

[BlitZ]

Yeah \thread since you ran out of arguments to support your 'daggers are damage dealers in a pt' theory.