would you consider this racist?

[pr0klobster]

Hm...

Is this a "bad flag" too?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... y_1933.svg

I mean, does everyone associate that flag ^ with Nazi Germany?

[Shadow]

Hm...

Is this a "bad flag" too?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... y_1933.svg

I mean, does everyone associate that flag ^ with Nazi Germany?

I was just about to post the swastika, asking if it was racist. The sign itself is a lot older than Nazi Germany, originally symbolizing things such as luck and fortune. Now one has to be careful with it because of the stain of nazism that the nazis brought upon it. I don't consider the symbol to be racist, unless it's used in such context in which it purposefully appears as such. Like, on the back of a neo-nazi skinhead it obviously is not symbolizing fortune or protecting from evil spirits...

[pr0klobster]

Hm...

Is this a "bad flag" too?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... y_1933.svg

I mean, does everyone associate that flag ^ with Nazi Germany?

I was just about to post the swastika, asking if it was racist. The sign itself is a lot older than Nazi Germany, originally symbolizing things such as luck and fortune. Now one has to be careful with it because of the stain of nazism that the nazis brought upon it. I don't consider the symbol to be racist, unless it's used in such context in which it purposefully appears as such. Like, on the back of a neo-nazi skinhead it obviously is not symbolizing fortune or protecting from evil spirits...

Well, the Nazis (Hitler, specifically) just reversed the symbol.

It's not so much the symbol as the flag - which is a symbol too.

Jade Dynasty has a skill that uses the original swastika as an animation (not the Nazi one) and the very first time I saw it I was taken aback for a second until I realized it was backwards.

[Barotix]

"African American." Why can't I just be American? Anyhoo. I don't think waving the confederate flag is racist. One usually waves it in remembrance of the great-grandfathers that died in the war. The ones that do wave it with racist intent are usually complete tards. Oh, and the civil war was totally about slavery from point A. to point B. Northern tariffs crippling fledgling southern industries, and a continuation of Henry Clay's policies had absolutely nothing to do it. Northern Mercantilism had nothing to do it. It was all about slaves and the politics/economics behind it had no effect. Nullification is stupid, secession is childish, and revolution is outdated. I think I summed up the majority of post in this topic. xD

This country has ugly history and this country has nice history; censoring the public display of one aspect of that History does not make it go away.

[Shadow]

Well, the Nazis (Hitler, specifically) just reversed the symbol.

It's been used both left and right facing before the nazis; they picked an old symbol and gave it a new meaning which is nowadays its only meaning to many people who are unaware of its history.

[InviSniper]

I don't find it racist.

[Mr.Ganji]

Well I can't really judge this actually. I was gonna say I think it's wrong, but apparently the symbol is part of a couple of state flags. You can ban the image, but what's that gonna do?
Besides, I support freedom of expression and to be able to fully support it I have to say this should be fine too.

Some things just dont fall into the category of freedom of expression. Like burning the American flag - has to be one of the most farked up ways you can "express" yourself. Thats something that should be made illegal as well.

[pr0klobster]

Well, the Nazis (Hitler, specifically) just reversed the symbol.

It's been used both left and right facing before the nazis; they picked an old symbol and gave it a new meaning which is nowadays its only meaning to many people who are unaware of its history.

Yes, I've seen it both ways. I just thought the reverse was more common.

Anyway, there it is: "its only meaning to people who are unaware of its history".

[dom]

anyway people down south are generally uneducated, and people up north are far more superior..

Same attitude, wrong team. Idiot.

Well, the Nazis (Hitler, specifically) just reversed the symbol.

It's been used both left and right facing before the nazis; they picked an old symbol and gave it a new meaning which is nowadays its only meaning to many people who are unaware of its history.

In Ontario everyone learns the history behind the Nazi symbol in junior highschool. I'm sure were not the only province, let alone country, with WWII in our curriculum.

[XemnasXD]

no history class i was in taught the history behind that symbol. Which was ironic because most of the time we had to watch a movie it was something about the holocaust....

[Jstar1]

its not racist but it sure is ignorant and rude. Southern people might want to be proud of their history but the connotations of the flag are really heavy in other places...wearing it will just be another way of saying "im ignorant so don't be friends with me"

Plus it weakens the whole idea of "one america". Whats their point, that they can just break off from America because Obama is making the country "socialist"?

the bottom line is, southerners who wear it or fly it are just thumbing their nose at the government or obama. Pretty immature in any case.

[Shadow]

In Ontario everyone learns the history behind the Nazi symbol in junior highschool. I'm sure were not the only province, let alone country, with WWII in our curriculum.

Things may be taught but not everyone always learns. Also not everyone goes to school.
Note that I wrote "many people". If you're aware of the symbol's history, you're not included in that "many".

[penfold1992]

racism as a thing of the present is different from what it was like in the past.
im do not class myself as racist however i hate how SOME black people use racism as an excuse.
ive seen this happen.. black person with hoodie up and gloves on walks into a store and the storekeeper wont serve him as he is suspicious of the thugish behaviour of the man. the man then turns around and starts physically abusing the shopkeeper telling him he is a racist and its just because he is black and he doesnt get convicted.
sorry but if your wearing a hoodie and gloves and your white. i would be suspicious too. i dont care what type of person you are you accept your not getting served and you leave not decide to abuse people there after.

in terms of the flag.. thats something of the past that may be kept by americans who have theyre own opinions but imo its just a sign.. like the swastica. i wouldnt concider any1 a bad person if they wore a swastica :S unless theyre was a group of them following a guy with a oddly shaped moustache :S

[pr0klobster]

its not racist but it sure is ignorant and rude. Southern people might want to be proud of their history but the connotations of the flag are really heavy in other places...wearing it will just be another way of saying "im ignorant so don't be friends with me"

Plus it weakens the whole idea of "one america". Whats their point, that they can just break off from America because Obama is making the country "socialist"?

the bottom line is, southerners who wear it or fly it are just thumbing their nose at the government or obama. Pretty immature in any case.

No, they're not...sheesh.

You haven't seen the "blue states secede" email that was making the rounds? In that one, the "blue" states (sorry to say I live in one) would secede from the union FOR Obama's cause.

[XemnasXD]

oh no chain e-mails! they really represent the mindset of most americans. Like that republican email that was sent to several senators "Barack the Magic Negro"...

The flag is insulting. To some southerns it represents their proud history of the south. To most black people it represents a group of people who started a war so they could keep us enslaved. Thats literally the origins of the flag. I don't see how we couldn't find something like that insulting. Baro seems to think its A-ok and gives southerners who fly it the benefit of the doubt. Im not that naive, if your shirt needs a caption to tell people its not racist then chances are its probably going to offended alot of people....

[Amarisa]

"African American." Why can't I just be American? Anyhoo. I don't think waving the confederate flag is racist. One usually waves it in remembrance of the great-grandfathers that died in the war. The ones that do wave it with racist intent are usually complete tards. Oh, and the civil war was totally about slavery from point A. to point B. Northern tariffs crippling fledgling southern industries, and a continuation of Henry Clay's policies had absolutely nothing to do it. Northern Mercantilism had nothing to do it. It was all about slaves and the politics/economics behind it had no effect. Nullification is stupid, secession is childish, and revolution is outdated. I think I summed up the majority of post in this topic. xD

This country has ugly history and this country has nice history; censoring the public display of one aspect of that History does not make it go away.

baro how are you so good at this stuff o.0 in like every political type thingacabob you show up and mop the floor with everyone......teach me!

[Jstar1]

its not racist but it sure is ignorant and rude. Southern people might want to be proud of their history but the connotations of the flag are really heavy in other places...wearing it will just be another way of saying "im ignorant so don't be friends with me"

Plus it weakens the whole idea of "one america". Whats their point, that they can just break off from America because Obama is making the country "socialist"?

the bottom line is, southerners who wear it or fly it are just thumbing their nose at the government or obama. Pretty immature in any case.

No, they're not...sheesh.

You haven't seen the "blue states secede" email that was making the rounds? In that one, the "blue" states (sorry to say I live in one) would secede from the union FOR Obama's cause.

dont be ridiculous. Anyone outside the south looking into it will most likely agree that flying a confederate flag is not in the spirit of America and its values.

[pr0klobster]

oh no chain e-mails! they really represent the mindset of most americans. Like that republican email that was sent to several senators "Barack the Magic Negro"...

The flag is insulting. To some southerns it represents their proud history of the south. To most black people it represents a group of people who started a war so they could keep us enslaved. Thats literally the origins of the flag. I don't see how we couldn't find something like that insulting. Baro seems to think its A-ok and gives southerners who fly it the benefit of the doubt. Im not that naive, if your shirt needs a caption to tell people its not racist then chances are its probably going to offended alot of people....

you're enslaved? wha?

so...is the shirt a bad reminder of those times then? Are they really trying to rub salt in the wound?

For that matter...why hasn't the wound healed? It's been a few years since slavery was abolished, women got the vote, and that newfangled car contraption came out.

Certain symbols can be read different ways. I'm aware of the difference between a Nazi swastika and the "original" one, so when I see one I no longer get all worked up about how "my countrymen" did such horrible things to Jews.

edit for Jstar1:

dont be ridiculous. Anyone outside the south looking into it will most likely agree that flying a confederate flag is not in the spirit of America and its values.

Why don't you tell me what our values are then. Freedom of expression perhaps?

[EvGa]

First that's not the confederate flag, the stars and bars was the confederate flag. The flag being discussed here is a battle flag.

These were the Confederate flags:




Yes I'm from Texas, no I don't fly a confederate flag. I don't think the flag itself is racist, but the majority of people that fly it or wear it are. Not to mention anyone I've seen here sporting a Confederate flag was white trash.

Would you guys see flying the true confederate flag as racist? (the two above). Just curious.

[Amarisa]

First that's not the confederate flag, the stars and bars was the confederate flag. The flag being discussed here is a battle flag.

These were the Confederate flags:




Yes I'm from Texas, no I don't fly a confederate flag. I don't think the flag itself is racist, but the majority of people that fly it or wear it are. Not to mention anyone I've seen here sporting a Confederate flag was white trash.

Would you guys see flying the true confederate flag as racist? (the two above). Just curious.

battle flag you say? that i think is even worse because well its the battle flag and represents the Americans that died for the war. even if Americans died on both sides the confederates were for well slavery and state rights.

[Bread_Fish]

taking the argument down to its bare bones flags are just images
images cant speak for themselves they only carry the messages given to them
to some the american flag represents power and unity to others it represents bigots with big wallets

another image, Van Gogh's 'Starry Night', can be seen as a bunch of squiggles to some people to others its something like this....http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/nyreg ... rtsct.html

tl;dr
this is a moot argument no matter which angle you come at it from...its just an image to which people attach meanings and there's no qualifying criteria for those meanings

[Jstar1]

dont be ridiculous. Anyone outside the south looking into it will most likely agree that flying a confederate flag is not in the spirit of America and its values.

Why don't you tell me what our values are then. Freedom of expression perhaps?

if you want to play at that level sure, wear whatever you want. You can wear KKK stuff, nazi stuff, anti-black stuff, whatever you want. The law doesn't care. The point is, on a moral level its just stupid and ignorant. If wearing a confederate flag is your way of thumbing your nose at obama and the democrats or if its a thinly veiled way of saying "we whites want non-whites out of america" go for it.

All it does is strengthen the stereotype that southerners are stupid, racist, and way behind the rest of the world.

[Amarisa]

taking the argument down to its bare bones flags are just images
images cant speak for themselves they only carry the messages given to them
to some the american flag represents power and unity to others it represents bigots with big wallets

another image, Van Gogh's 'Starry Night', can be seen as a bunch of squiggles to some people to others its something like this....http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/nyreg ... rtsct.html

tl;dr
this is a moot argument no matter which angle you come at it from...its just an image to which people attach meanings and there's no qualifying criteria for those meanings

though "pictures speak 1000 words" if people know history they will have an opinion on the flag.

[XemnasXD]

more specific its the naval flag of the confederate forces. Like i said in my first post most of the people who fly that flag don't even know the history behind it, they think its the flag of the CSA.

Yeah in the US we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression and all that jazz but that doesn't mean you can be an ass. You can go out in the street and refer to all the black people you see as the n-word if you wanted to. That doesn't mean you should. The same goes for the flag. Flags are symbolic. Their purpose to represent something. In that case that something is the failed attempt by the south to secede and keep up the institution of slavery. Yeah its history and yeah some people can claim its their heritage and they're proud of it. Im sure some germans are proud of the holocaust, after all its their heritage but there is a reason why the flag of the Nazis is banned in Germany.

Not all history or heritage deserves to be proudly displayed...

[pr0klobster]

dont be ridiculous. Anyone outside the south looking into it will most likely agree that flying a confederate flag is not in the spirit of America and its values.

Why don't you tell me what our values are then. Freedom of expression perhaps?

if you want to play at that level sure, wear whatever you want. You can wear KKK stuff, nazi stuff, anti-black stuff, whatever you want. The law doesn't care. The point is, on a moral level its just stupid and ignorant. If wearing a confederate flag is your way of thumbing your nose at obama and the democrats or if its a thinly veiled way of saying "we whites want non-whites out of america" go for it.

All it does is strengthen the stereotype that southerners are stupid, racist, and way behind the rest of the world.

Why do you keep bringing up Obama and the Democrats? This has zero to do with them. This issue is about the symbol of the "battle" flag and its inherent ability to bring about emotional arguments. What about the state flag of Alabama or Florida? looks very similar...oh noes!

Morality - in my own personal opinion - is always black and white. Morality to a lot of people is not so. Ever hear the story of the lady who stole two loaves of bread to feed her kids? Ok, she broke the law, so shouldn't she be subject to the justice system? Or is that ok for her because she had to do what she needed to do to survive?

[pr0klobster]

more specific its the naval flag of the confederate forces. Like i said in my first post most of the people who fly that flag don't even know the history behind it, they think its the flag of the CSA.

Yeah in the US we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression and all that jazz but that doesn't mean you can be an ass. You can go out in the street and refer to all the black people you see as the n-word if you wanted to. That doesn't mean you should. The same goes for the flag. Flags are symbolic. Their purpose to represent something. In that case that something is the failed attempt by the south to secede and keep up the institution of slavery. Yeah its history and yeah some people can claim its their heritage and they're proud of it. Im sure some germans are proud of the holocaust, after all its their heritage but there is a reason why the flag of the Nazis is banned in Germany.

Not all history or heritage deserves to be proudly displayed...

"Yeah in the US we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression and all that jazz but that doesn't mean you can be an ass."

I find this really funny Yes, I can be, all I want. You can be too. There may be consequences from someone taking offense, but expressing an opinion and having someone punch me would be a quick and easy lawsuit. The response is elevated from verbal to physical.

"Flags are symbolic. Their purpose to represent something. In that case that something is the failed attempt by the south to secede and keep up the institution of slavery."

Honestly, it doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks it represents. Some bands play demonic music and eat the heads off chickens. Are they allowed to do that? Are you allowed to demonstrate publicly against something you disagree with?

Are we allowed to keep posting here as long as we aren't insulting? So far, I hope I am not offending you but simply engaging in a conversation. I'm not saying the flag is bad or good or that Southerners are dumb or hicks or geniuses. But most of the people here seem to enjoy freedom of choice, right?

Voltaire:
"I may disagree with what you are saying, but will defend to the death your right to say it."

[XemnasXD]

Fine you're right. People can be dicks. Is that your point. We already know that. People can still fly that flag can't they, regardless of how many people it offends. The argument was whether it was offensive or it. Yes it is to a large group of people. Can you fly and should you fly it are two different questions. You have every right to, thats not up for debate, but should you, that is a matter of personal opinion and if you should choose to fly it you should realize that you are alienating yourself and offending a group of people because that flag represents nothing good to them regardless of its "positive" history which i can't even fathom.

[AutumnLeaves]

[pr0klobster]

Fine you're right. People can be dicks. Is that your point. We already know that. People can still fly that flag can't they, regardless of how many people it offends. The argument was whether it was offensive or it. Yes it is to a large group of people. Can you fly and should you fly it are two different questions. You have every right to, thats not up for debate, but should you, that is a matter of personal opinion and if you should choose to fly it you should realize that you are alienating yourself and offending a group of people because that flag represents nothing good to them regardless of its "positive" history which i can't even fathom.

My apologies. I'm not trying to start something different, I got a little sidetracked from the main issue.

Yes, the question was really "is it racist?" That's another issue entirely as "racist" isn't really the proper term. We're all one race. "colorist" just doesn't cut it.

So, are people just being jerks or are they "racist" by flying this flag? Is it really their intent to generalize or minimize an entire group of people with different skin color? From what I see, that's what most people against flying the flag are bordering on...generalizing.

[Jstar1]

Yes, the question was really "is it racist?" That's another issue entirely as "racist" isn't really the proper term. We're all one race. "colorist" just doesn't cut it.

So, are people just being jerks or are they "racist" by flying this flag? Is it really their intent to generalize or minimize an entire group of people with different skin color? From what I see, that's what most people against flying the flag are bordering on...generalizing.

The flag implies racism. No one ever said that the flag itself had to represent racism. And no, your wrong. Racism isn't just "another issue". Stop trying to avoid it because racism is the whole point of this!! Your surprised that people are angry about this because of racism? Are you serious? Or do you not know what kind of connotations the CSA flag holds? If you can't understand that then what is your point?

Morality - in my own personal opinion - is always black and white.

And thats exactly why your wrong. You think its only racist if a person says the N word or does a hate crime. Your wrong. You think that "oh as long as it isn't directly racist, people shouldn't accuse me as one". There are a million different ways to show and imply that you are racist. It doesn't matter if you intend to show that your racist. Flying the CSA flag is definitely racist and therefore immoral. Beyond the argument about the law and beyond freedom of expression, etc. if we decide on a moral level, you are definitely wrong. If you still think you do nothing wrong by flying the flag (let me clarify again - on a MORAL level)...well then that means this dicussion is pointless because theres nothing more that anybody can do to help you realize that.