"Conservatives", White-power, and Pirates

[XemnasXD]

All seem to be the winners of the EU Parliament elections....what a continent that must be. I mean from my perspective you guys were already off the chain when you had more than 2 major parties but the BNP and Swedens Pirate Party? Thats just ridiculous, while im impressed they could even win seats im not sure what to think about it, seems a bit out of control. I put conservatives in quotes because your version of conservative is out version of Liberal....how topsy turvy...

any thoughts?

[heroo]

yeah i was disappointed also, but to be honest. these elections aren't really important. the people who were elected won't have alot of power.

[Midori]

I actually think that the "pirate party" got elected is a good thing. We need more people to lobby for internet neutrality.

[chickenfeather]

LoL pirate party sounds awesome arrrr...
I don't find having more than 2 major parties ridiculous, it just means more people saying the same thing in different words.
We'll see how things roll in the years to come I guess. It's almost impossible to predict how things will go down right now since the world is pretty unstable.

[Love]

I actually think that the "pirate party" got elected is a good thing. We need more people to lobby for internet neutrality.

This

but I don't honestly think they will get much done.

[XemnasXD]

LoL pirate party sounds awesome arrrr...
I don't find having more than 2 major parties ridiculous, it just means more people saying the same thing in different words.
We'll see how things roll in the years to come I guess. It's almost impossible to predict how things will go down right now since the world is pretty unstable.

never said having more than 2 parties was ridiculous, i welcome the idea in the country, would give us more options than "The guy with bad ideas" and "The guy with no ideas." But the BNP, ppl must really be desperate for change to throw them their vote....thats the kind of stuff thats ridiculous. Imagine if the KKK won a seat in Congress at this day and age. More choices is cool and people i like people exercising their right to vote but if they people elect the wrong people for the wrong reasons it can have seriously wrong consequences...

[Doron]

never really cared for european politics or something..

as long as I can still buy my cigarettes for a reasonable price and I'm still free enough to act as I want they can do whatever they like.

[Barotix]

All seem to be the winners of the EU Parliament elections....what a continent that must be. I mean from my perspective you guys were already off the chain when you had more than 2 major parties but the BNP and Swedens Pirate Party? Thats just ridiculous, while im impressed they could even win seats im not sure what to think about it, seems a bit out of control. I put conservatives in quotes because your version of conservative is out version of Liberal....how topsy turvy...

any thoughts?

That's because liberalism in Europe more or less refers to Libertarianism, and conservatism is to keep things the same [i.e.] moderately powerful central government.

[XemnasXD]

we all know how i feel about centralized gov't....

[SidiousX]

I voted for an extreme-right party too, the PVV from Wilders. Guess everyone shud know about him:P Its not that i hate people from other country's like people from marroco and turkey, but there has to be something done bout immegration.. and i made this political-test on the internet and PVV came as my party so i voted for them as well.

im satisfied bout the results of the voting.

[[SD]Twysta]

I voted for an extreme-right party too, the PVV from Wilders. Guess everyone shud know about him:P Its not that i hate people from other country's like people from marroco and turkey, but there has to be something done bout immegration.. and i made this political-test on the internet and PVV came as my party so i voted for them as well.

im satisfied bout the results of the voting.

Same here.

[heroo]

I voted for an extreme-right party too, the PVV from Wilders. Guess everyone shud know about him:P Its not that i hate people from other country's like people from marroco and turkey, but there has to be something done bout immegration.. and i made this political-test on the internet and PVV came as my party so i voted for them as well.

im satisfied bout the results of the voting.

Same here.

lulz Wilders is full of sh!t. he never motivates his views. he only yells things without claryfing what he really wants and how he wants to achieve it.

i really find it ridiculous that he was won so much votes form the Duch people. the should know better.

[woutR]

I'm extremely disappointed by the results from the Netherlands. Narrow minded PVV morons. There's really nothing more to the PVV than an ugly extremist who knows how to play the media. He wants to battle islam's so called intolerance with double intolerance. He wants to remove the first 'article' (dunno how to translate) from the constitution, this means discrimination is allowed by law. (He needs this to go away because else he can't do further modifications to the constitution, for example removal of freedom of religion and banning the Koran)

People are so misguided. I won't deny that specifically Moroccans, Turks and Antilleans have been causing a shitload of trouble in our country, but an extremist approach is not needed. A lot of other parties have very good immigration plans that don't involve invoking a massive witch hunt for everything foreign, the banning of cultural beliefs and the allowance of discrimination.
To be honest, if you're voting for the PVV you're sending us back to the middle ages where it's a "our religion is better"- battle. PVV wants to support the Christian-Jewish society and remove the Islam society from our country.
Dutch people with a tinted skin (believe it or not, these people are just as Dutch as you) are already feeling uncomfortable in their own country.

A lot of people I know have issues with the annoying Moroccan, Turkish and Antillean youth and they immediately link this with the PVV, thinking that if they vote PVV these problems will go away. In a way it's true, the massive deportation of these people will indeed fix some of the problems, but at a price. A very steep price if you ask me. Trading genuine human rights for an Islam free country is ridiculous.
One day people will see how narrow minded and retarded Wilders is.

And @Icealya: time to come in action my man. If the PVV comes to power you won't be free enough to do as you like. If you wanna convert to Islam for example, you won't be able to.
It's always important to let your vote count, even if you're a narrow minded PVV voter, if you think their way is the way to go you should vote for it. But that doesn't mean I can't complain about it and try to convince you to vote differently.

If I could have voted I would have voted D66. A very progressive center-right wing party with a focus on Europe.

[[SD]Twysta]

"our religion is better"- battle.

I completely disagree with this. How is it like that if we'd finally PUT SOME Farking plans in effect? It's our country, not theirs. If it continues like this what will it end like?
I won't be as single minded as before though.

There have to be rules at the very least. Strict ones.

Different countries with ifferent rules in each of them were made for a reason.
They have to be changed, simply beacuse there's this massive ask to do so because of the amount of foreign people who've immigrated to holland. They can get it done now that they're with so many.

I'm talking from wearing burkas to 100% foreign neighborhoods, from 100% foreign schools to foreign leadership on different areas. Just some examples.

I honestly couldn't care less what's behind the party btw.
What I care about, is the situation in holland.

Since this is the only party that actually has the nerves to discuss the immigrant problem in holland in public, I voted for them.

Trust me when I tell ya that all other parties discuss the immigrant problem outside of the media, because it's not a minor situation. They're just afraid of ending up like Pim.
Yet again it might be a bit single minded.

However I've made my mind up, I believe in change and I believe there has to be, CHANGE.

[SidiousX]

@woutR

Politics are all about 'as long as we dont offend the islam its alright' these days.

PVV is only one not thinking like that.
But as i said before, i didn't only vote PVV for the islam stuff.. i hav no problem with islamic people as long as they TALK DUTCH, WORK, and not get paid monthly by the government, coz they're not working. And yes, there's also some dutch people like these that shud be taken care of.

[woutR]

I feel that I may have come off a bit too strong about this subject. So I'll try to steer away from my passionate hate of Wilders.
Why do you feel the immigration problem is so out of control that it would take discrimination and intolerance to fix it?
And how can you vote for someone who exploits the vulnerability of a raped journalist for the gain of his party?

[SidiousX]

Tbh the journalist is a retarted person.
Why respect someone who rapes u? but meh.. there's ofcourse also a lot of things i disagree on with PVV, but also some things i do agree on and i think are important.

I do not say discrimination and intolerance helps agains the immigration situation, but i voted PVV, am i intolerance against islamic people? Nope.

[lavapockets]

All seem to be the winners of the EU Parliament elections....what a continent that must be. I mean from my perspective you guys were already off the chain when you had more than 2 major parties but the BNP and Swedens Pirate Party? Thats just ridiculous, while im impressed they could even win seats im not sure what to think about it, seems a bit out of control. I put conservatives in quotes because your version of conservative is out version of Liberal....how topsy turvy...

any thoughts?

I don't think it's surprising that in a time of economic downturn and turmoil people are rallying behind more conservative parties, and especially anti-immigration parties. Citizens want their piece of the pie and they don't want to fight new comers for it. The swing is also augmented because left and center-left parties were mostly in control during the run-up to the economic collapse.

The Pirate Party won because of the massive amount of media attention TPB and the trial of TPB admins garnered. It's more interesting with respect to internal Swedish politics than it will be overall EU politics.

[[SD]Twysta]

@woutR

Politics are all about 'as long as we dont offend the islam its alright' these days.

PVV is only one not thinking like that.
But as i said before, i didn't only vote PVV for the islam stuff.. i hav no problem with islamic people as long as they TALK DUTCH, WORK, and not get paid monthly by the government, coz they're not working. And yes, there's also some dutch people like these that shud be taken care of.

Well here's the TL:DR version of my post basically..

Not against them, but there has to be change for the greater good of the netherlands
The gov. is just afraid of ending up like others who have put their ideas out there (dead).

They come here because it's a good country, and I totally understand that. Whether it's because of work offers or because of family, or maybe because of war, or other problems in their country.

The more there are, the more impact they have on the government and it becomes easier to make things happen.

Plz don't take the following exactly as I write it, it's just a good description of the situation how I personally think about this situation.

Silkroad online. Fine in stage 1. Bot came in stage 2. More in stage 3. Stage 4 became overwhelming. It suddenly happened and it's out of control for joymax. Stage 5, we're at a point of no return . They can't stop it any more.(stop being an important word; meaning, change - improvement - applicable rules etc.). We can't change this situation.
It's gonna have to be hard . It's the only way it'll still be savable.

[XemnasXD]

Hmmmm

The way you guys are talking about this PVV, and everything i know about them comes from this thread, it seems right up there with the BNP. As an black american the idea of "our land not their land" is extremely foreign to be, this country is a mixing pot that was built on the backs of most of the minority groups that call it home today. However in this country their has always been a strive for those coming to america to be accepted as american. People try to fit in here not stand out.

Can someone explain to me in better detail what seems to be the problem that Muslims are bringing to holland. Is it all Muslims? Radical Muslims? Are they taking over jobs, changing laws, bringing in their own social customs? Why are they such a threat to you?

[satman83]

BNP being elected makes me sick...i mean REALLY sick.

but ONE and ONLY one reason they got elected...low voter turn out, only 34.7%
voted and as such people who would normal vote for one of the top 3 parties (labour
lib dems and conservatives) didnt vote at all.

So what happened was that the racist pigs who normally voted for the BNP still went
out and voted for them (no major increase like they boost), as such they received
a higher percent of the vote, as there was a much much lower turnout.

(for example... 100 people vote, 40 for party 1, 40 for party 2 and 20 for party 3.
so thats 80% for 1 + 2 and 20% for 3
but next vote only 50 people vote, 15 for party 1, 15 for party 2 and 20 for party 3
as such the percent of party 3's vote goes up...but not the actual number of
voters).

say what you want...if people here (UK) want to stop the BNP the only way is to
go out and to vote for them, to make sure they do not get into power.

[chickenfeather]

Can someone explain to me in better detail what seems to be the problem that Muslims are bringing to holland. Is it all Muslims? Radical Muslims? Are they taking over jobs, changing laws, bringing in their own social customs? Why are they such a threat to you?

I'm not from Holland, but I'm guessing a large part of why people are so threatened by muslims is because of the history of islamic conquest. It's really a quite straightforward tactic :
1) While muslims are weaker/have less people act friendly and "do as the romans do"
2) Once muslims increase in numbers and influence, they kill the infidel and take control

I'm pulling this from the following source http://www.islamreview.com/articles/facade.shtml

[XemnasXD]

from my studies of world history islam was the most peaceful of the Big three and the most tolerant. Once Islamist took over europe they still allowed christians to practice their religions and Jews to practice theirs. Part of the transition back to the old ways was killing off all the non-christians including the jews who had settled there under muslim rule. I don't think it has anything to do with the conquest of the Moors who, while they came with violence, revolutionized europe education and technology wise and didn't lord which nearly as iron a fist as the Kings and Queens who came after them...


i think you need to read more history than that website...alot more.....

[lavapockets]

from my studies of world history islam was the most peaceful of the Big three and the most tolerant. Once Islamist took over europe they still allowed christians to practice their religions and Jews to practice theirs. Part of the transition back to the old ways was killing off all the non-christians. I don't think it has anything to do with the conquest of the Moors then who while they came with violence, revolutionized europe education and technology wise and didn't lord which nearly as iron a fist as the Kings and Queens who came after them...


i think you need to read more history than that website...alot more.....

Nevertheless, I think there's animosity left over in some Europeans. I think they've proven over the last couple centuries how much stock they put in having "pure [pick your race/skin color/religion]" citizenry. Xenophobia is strong and blaming outsiders for your countries ills is a persuasive argument.

[chickenfeather]

from my studies of world history islam was the most peaceful of the Big three and the most tolerant. Once Islamist took over europe they still allowed christians to practice their religions and Jews to practice theirs. Part of the transition back to the old ways was killing off all the non-christians including the jews who had settled there under muslim rule. I don't think it has anything to do with the conquest of the Moors who, while they came with violence, revolutionized europe education and technology wise and didn't lord which nearly as iron a fist as the Kings and Queens who came after them...


i think you need to read more history than that website...alot more.....

I know they were very tolerant after they killed everyone that opposed them during the conquest period, but I would think people are more worried about what happens during the conquest than what happens afterwards.

Nevertheless, I think there's animosity left over in some Europeans. I think they've proven over the last couple centuries how much stock they put in having "pure [pick your race/skin color/religion]" citizenry. Xenophobia is strong and blaming outsiders for your countries ills is a persuasive argument.

Hey it worked for hitler didn't it? =(

[XemnasXD]

the conquest of the Moors was alot better than the Crusaders or the expansion of the Mongolian Empire or the expansion of the Persian Empire...maybe its just me but the way i took your statement you seemed to be implying that the conquest of the Moors was for some reason particularly brutal on the Europeans. Also you likened the conquest to some sort of underhanded scheme where they were just bidding their time until they were ready to strike then they killed all non-muslims which is not the case. The conquest of the moors was a conquest, as proud and militant as any other not some subtle backdoor treachery and despite those facts they lived in relative peace with their subjected and brought them a much better way of living, so much better than after the Chritians killed all the Muslims and the Jews they kept all the advances and claimed credit for them....

OnT:

Nevertheless, I think there's animosity left over in some Europeans. I think they've proven over the last couple centuries how much stock they put in having "pure [pick your race/skin color/religion]" citizenry. Xenophobia is strong and blaming outsiders for your countries ills is a persuasive argument.

From my perspective this is exactly seems to be the case but i am not from Holland which is why i asked someone with afirst person perspective to clarify and detail exactly what problems they have with them that are unique to rising (if they are risising) Arab population because this seems to be a problem of race covered by religion unless the Dutch are saying that they have problems with White-Dutch-Muslims just as much as the have a problem with the arab ones.....

[woutR]

Hmmmm

The way you guys are talking about this PVV, and everything i know about them comes from this thread, it seems right up there with the BNP. As an black american the idea of "our land not their land" is extremely foreign to be, this country is a mixing pot that was built on the backs of most of the minority groups that call it home today. However in this country their has always been a strive for those coming to america to be accepted as american. People try to fit in here not stand out.

Can someone explain to me in better detail what seems to be the problem that Muslims are bringing to holland. Is it all Muslims? Radical Muslims? Are they taking over jobs, changing laws, bringing in their own social customs? Why are they such a threat to you?

The social problem is the lack of integration on the part of trouble making Muslims. They stick together and don't 'get out there'. They don't get involved in anything and cause a lot of ruckus. Several area's in cities have become extremely difficult to live in for white citizens and people not in line with Islam beliefs (homosexuals mostly).
Seeing as they don't integrate they usually have low education and end up pretty much jobless.
This group takes up a lot of media attention.
The economical problem is mostly Holland's own fault, we have the world's highest benefits system (or one of the highest, pretty sure it's the highest actually) so the lazy bastards get disability and then leech off it for the rest of their lives. (The benefits cover housing, incidental purchases etc.)
So that leaves us with a group of law ignoring, not willing to integrate and lazy bastards. I fully support every movement towards cleaning this mess up btw. (Though not by the means of discrimination)
But there's also the political factor. Muslim society can be extremely sensitive and noisy (Danish cartoonist who drew Mohamed for example). A lot of people really speaking out their minds about the Islam have had death threats, several have even died.
It's hard to voice harsh criticism on the group and still stand tall. It's the reason why some people respect Wilders; he won't bow for Islam pressure.
It's not like the Islam rules the country and everyone cowers in fear for their judgments, but it's more like voicing opinions about the Islam has become.. challenging. It requires certain tact to address these issues. A lot of people(read: PVV people) see approaching this with tact as bowing down to the Islam.
We have a group that one side is ruining every day life for a good portion of innocent civilians, but on the other side there are a lot of peaceful Muslims, not causing any problems.
Then you have most political parties who try and approach the issues with as much respect as possible for the peaceful Muslims. This leads to misunderstanding that they lack decisiveness (Dutch word is so much better: daadkracht) to really do something.
And then there's the PVV who says everything extremely blunt and in the process offends every Muslim, but they appear to be extremely resolute with a very hands on approach, which appeals to many.

People grow tired of politicians not really being decisive and go to the extremes, Wilders.


It seems I have kind of drifted off and not specifically answered your questions.
The trouble makers are a mix of radical Muslims and just being trouble makers from a Muslim country. The most radical are obviously the most rare, they have huge impact though (killing Theo v. Gogh for example). I don't really think it should be about Muslims that much, but that's the way the PVV has decided to go. Religion is, imo, not the binding element for the trouble making 'Muslims'. I think lack of integration is the core of the problem.

They're definitely not taking over jobs (probably this all wouldn't be a problem if they got a job and got off the streets). Their social customs are of minimal impact to every day life. There's radicals that refuse to shake hands with women and that kind of bs. But Muslim or not, crazy people will always be around.

[lavapockets]

Here's an article about attitudes towards Muslims in Western societies
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?PageID=812

Here's an article about the Dutch film maker assassinated by muslim extemists
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3974179.stm

Article from the Nation about Dutch-Muslim culture wars:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050627/scroggins

Maybe you'll find something in these to help answer your questions.

[XemnasXD]

Sounds like a gang problem almost. The refusal to integrate being a core part of the process as you said. I don't think this is a problem of religion, at least at has a very small part to play in what is really going on. The best way to end it would be fore the non-radicals to actively reproach the radicals. If there are more radicals than non then it would seem like you need to stop funding lazy behavior and start instituting higher work requirements for citizens if they wish to receive disability. TBH once people have grown comfortable sucking on the tits of the gov't the only way to get them off is to turn off the money. A similar case can be seen in my area where if you go across the tracks there are a ton of low income and section 8 housing and too many of the people who live there aren't trying to get out of their, and i mean they live in houses that were better than mine and they don't even pay for it, its like rewarding lazyness.

Weeding out who really NEEDS public money from those who just WANT public money will always be a problem but you don't solve it because the social situation is breeds just creates a cycle that continues and propagates the down spiral of the area. The cure isn't to cut ALL the funding nor is it to tell all people of certain religion/ethnicity to vacate the area. Your gov't needs to weed out the needs from the wants and then deport the wants and leave the needs. It doesn't have to be a racist or religious issue unless people make it one....

[chickenfeather]

maybe its just me but the way i took your statement you seemed to be implying that the conquest of the Moors was for some reason particularly brutal on the Europeans.

I was not implying anything about the specific case of the moors, it was more of a broad statement about just one posibility for people in Holland to not like Muslims(based on that single biased site).

Also you likened the conquest to some sort of underhanded scheme where they were just bidding their time until they were ready to strike then they killed all non-muslims which is not the case.

I think this was the case in Medina, but I agree the Moors had a different tactic. Either way, if it happened once, it might happen again if you keep the options open.

@woutR
I am unable to see why a country would see the failure of integration as a threat. Usually newly immigrated people do not integrate, but eventually their descendants will. It just takes time.
As for the lack of education and poverty levels I can see how that might eventually be dangerous based on my experiences in the poor neighborhoods of America. Other than a massive propaganda campaign, I don't think the government can do much. To break a tightly knit group with isolationist tendencies would require drastic changes in the beliefs of the community leaders and households.

The best way to end it would be fore the non-radicals to actively reproach the radicals. If there are more radicals than non then it would seem like you need to stop funding lazy behavior and start instituting higher work requirements for citizens if they wish to receive disability. TBH once people have grown comfortable sucking on the tits of the gov't the only way to get them off is to turn off the money.

My vote goes to you if you are running