Heavy discussion goes in here --->>

[cin]

Seriously Cin, there's a bloody 100 of them.

i bet there's more with a standard 1pxl stroke border
or with no border at all. should i go whine about those?

[Priam]

Seriously Cin, there's a bloody 100 of them.

i bet there's more with a standard 1pxl stroke border
or with no border at all. should i go whine about those?

Depends, if your like me and i presume Hostage to, and thrive on creativity, then yes, you should.

[cin]

lol you're kidding right.

so what i actually should have done was bash hostage
for not having a border around his sig because that's
so 2008 or what. idk what your point here is, especially
now you've brought up "creativity". if a certain border
fits well with a certain style of sig, but that border
has been used before you see it as not creative? what
if a creative border would totally kill the sig, you'd
praise it for having such an original border and give
it a 9/10 tho the total picture sucks?

[Priam]

Well, depends on your view on creativity.

I like to see new things, unusual things, new methods, and quite frankly don't care for the rest, doesn't matter how well done it may be.

In AC people have been stuck with the same kind of sigs for about 2 years now, the colors and renders change, sure, but it's still the same concept. Same goes for Aazumak's border. Quite new and fresh when he first used it, old and overdone now.

It's also my view that if you consider yourself an artist, you'd also be sharing my points, and always on the lookout for new stuff, cool stuff, weird stuff, new methods, etc. Allthough this sentence renders 80% of AC artist-less, i'm still hoping. I see Hostage, MK, and some other doing new stuff frequently, trying new things. That's what is should all be about.

And yes, i'd rate a very well done sig 4/10 if elements of it have been done before.

[cin]

It's also my view that if you consider yourself an artist, you'd also be sharing my points

lol. good thing you put the "it's also my view that" at the
beginning of that sentence.

creativity for me means thinking out off the box. i'm not an
artist, and i don't consider myself an artist. i'm a designer
which means that i mostly have to go with trends to make my
product a success, not saying innovation isn't involved. do
you know how many painters, famous painters and in the eyes
of professionals true artists, have followed a style that was
a trend in their time? i mean sure, they could put their work
in a special looking, original list/housing, but that's not
what people would look at. the only thing i really agree on
with you here is that there have to be certain people that
introduce a new style, but the obvious consequense of that is
that many will follow that style. and there's nothing wrong
with that. and besides that, we live in a time where nearly
everything has already been tried and done before, there's
almost no way someone in our AC can do something they haven't
seen other artists do before.

i make sigs and other pieces i post here for the fun of it.
because i like it, it's my hobby and i do it in my spare time.
this means i won't ever have someone push me into making a
piece that has never been done before, i'll do that if i feel
like that or if i have the inspiration for that. again, it's
a good thing you've put the "it's also my view that" at the
beginning of your sentence, because your points are not facts,
they're an opinion. as is most of my post right here.

[DumboDii]

Heavy discussion indeed.

[lavapockets]

This conversation makes me think of a sports analogy. When I was growing up there were two leagues you could play, recreational and travel. Rec league is for people who just play to have fun, because they like it, and no one gets on their case if they're not the best, or not striving to be the best. You don't put your whole life into rec ball because it's just a hobby. Travel is for serious people, you train 6 days a week when you're not playing in tournaments, and it's a big deal when you win and lose. The AC is rec league guys. This is a small community where people who enjoy making sigs in their free time can come and mingle with more experienced people, get advice, whatever.

Some of us are never going to produce the most groundbreaking sig you've ever seen, some of us like to be creative without feeling like we have to pour our entire lives into researching art in an attempt to prove our merits. I have accounts on other GFX forums, I use them to look at tuts, stocks, resources, etc. I don't post there because I'm not into the attitude that comes along with the posts. If you're a serious graphic artist, sure that kind of criticism is important for your development. But for some of us, we just don't care that much. I don't understand this push to make the AC into something that it's not.

And another thing. There have been some really great artists on this site. They were able to give honest critiques without disparaging people. So I know there's a way to be critical and not hurt people's feelings.

[_Angels]

This conversation makes me think of a sports analogy. When I was growing up there were two leagues you could play, recreational and travel. Rec league is for people who just play to have fun, because they like it, and no one gets on their case if they're not the best, or not striving to be the best. You don't put your whole life into rec ball because it's just a hobby. Travel is for serious people, you train 6 days a week when you're not playing in tournaments, and it's a big deal when you win and lose. The AC is rec league guys. This is a small community where people who enjoy making sigs in their free time can come and mingle with more experienced people, get advice, whatever.

Some of us are never going to produce the most groundbreaking sig you've ever seen, some of us like to be creative without feeling like we have to pour our entire lives into researching art in an attempt to prove our merits. I have accounts on other GFX forums, I use them to look at tuts, stocks, resources, etc. I don't post there because I'm not into the attitude that comes along with the posts. If you're a serious graphic artist, sure that kind of criticism is important for your development. But for some of us, we just don't care that much. I don't understand this push to make the AC into something that it's not.

And another thing. There have been some really great artists on this site. They were able to give honest critiques without disparaging people. So I know there's a way to be critical and not hurt people's feelings.

+1 I REALLY feel the same way ><
people might develope the feeling for "go i pro" when they are gettin better but then they usually go to other gfx sites><

edit: typo xD

[cin]

wholeheartedly agree with lavapockets. that's exactly
how i feel about this matter.

[Priam]

I think i made perfectly clear I was expressing my opinion, rather then reading out loud from a dictionary. No need to emphasize that over and over.

Think it's way to shallow to assume nearly everything has been done allready, and 'following' a style is pretty wide. People on our AC have been following the same style for 2 years then. Way to go them. Also, a lot of famous painters, created a style, were part of a style(group), rather then follow it. They usually truly were pioneers. Followers of such a style are good, rather then brilliant, which were the masters. E.g. Mondriaan/Monet/Appel. Many of them were just loners, untill later categorised by us, the larger public.

Yes there will be many followers, but that doesn't mean i, or hostage have/has to like it.

Also you (Cin) make a lot of highly commercial points. Which is out of the question for most. Artist/Designer are two different thing. Well atleast i think so. A designer is more like a factory, when doing so professionaly, whereas an artist (proclaimed) tries to express whatever the hell he/she wants to express in a piece. With (usually) no direct financial motive. That comes later.

Just stating that people on this board can change the (graphical) world, is a little early. Might just need a push, like everyone.

A final note. Creativity to me, is also thinking outside the box. That sure as hell isn't happening with 80% of the sigs on this board. Which makes them mediocre at best in my view, which brings us right back to the start of this arguement.

Also, freedom of speech. If a critique I wrote makes someone teary, well sorry, but it's the way I feel about your work.

[lavapockets]

That's all well and good, and I respect your opinions. What are you going to do about it? We can go over the arguments again, but how are you planning on influencing our community to think more outside the box? Is it by posting your own creative works? Pushing people to explore new styles? Or are you both going to just express your dislike of the current situation without adding anything to the community? If there are boundaries you see us in, push them by all means. But don't tell me I'm not thinking outside the box. My box just might be smaller and less skilled than your, but it doesn't mean I'm not being creative. Like I said, some of us will just never be that good.

[Priam]

That's all well and good, and I respect your opinions. What are you going to do about it? We can go over the arguments again, but how are you planning on influencing our community to think more outside the box? Is it by posting your own creative works? Pushing people to explore new styles? Or are you both going to just express your dislike of the current situation without adding anything to the community? If there are boundaries you see us in, push them by all means. But don't tell me I'm not thinking outside the box. My box just might be smaller and less skilled than your, but it doesn't mean I'm not being creative. Like I said, some of us will just never be that good.

I'm not gonna do anything. If people like to stay on the safe side, then please, do so. Just don't get mad when someone rates your work as a 0, or brings up the fact that your border is 50 years old, and overused, or points out that your sig is entirely copy pasted from Vogue scraps. That's what ignited this discussion isn't it.

5'm not claiming i'm uber skilled, nor am I claiming your lesser then me, i actually like your work most of the times. Just feels kinda stupid to allready shove yourself in a box, whereas your fine with not getting better or more original.

[lavapockets]

Who copy pasted from Vogue what? I'm not even sure what brought this up, I just hear a whole lot of criticism of "AC people" and it's kind of disheartening. I always thought of the AC as a place where posters aren't held up to some template of what an artist should be and bashed for their lack of artistic insight. What made me want to post here is what I said above. There are ways to be critical and not hurt people's feelings. You don't have to insult someone for them to understand you're better at art than they are. And constructive criticism, delivered with a little tact, goes much farther than being rude in my opinion.

I'm not saying I'm never going to try to improve Priam. Or that I'm comfortable in my box. I'm saying I'm never going to be a serious artist, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

[_Angels]

well imo..I think we are seeing these sigs over and over well not by the same peson 100 times. but by other users cuz When they see something nice they feel like to try that too and feel inspired by it..and sometimes to proof themself they can do that too.. maby not so good or sometimes better..but if u dont do it 100% great for ur own opinion..u will do it over and over untill u feel satisfied about urself and get on anohter project or w/e that u want to learn/master.
But the point here is that some people forget that some of us are still newbies and need a push from one another like priam said, Because not all of us are still that good to be confident about ourself yet. Lately ive been feeling just making sigs for wars and its not rlly That fun anymore and photoshop or making sigs is about enjoying urself while making it. Not just becuz its a sigwar.
If we truly want to learn something together. I wished for more topics like sigwars only with an other concept..like Cin alrddy made the topic where people can share their sigs to improve. I also remembered collabs but they suddenly disapeared.
And to help eachother to reach that goal from learning something. we need critiques but not critiques to show u know more then the person.. but to show what he can change to make it look better. after it would look better when he/she treid those things he will prolly use that same technique for later to make it look better..and thats the other way to give critiques instead of giving out the bad sides of the sig and say improve that instead we should letterly say what he/she should change like: "try to use <insert border style> on the sig" . Maby this would suprise some people here but with friendly words u can get more with words that give people pressure.

[cin]

Also you (Cin) make a lot of highly commercial points. Which is out of the question for most. Artist/Designer are two different thing. Well atleast i think so. A designer is more like a factory, when doing so professionaly, whereas an artist (proclaimed) tries to express whatever the hell he/she wants to express in a piece. With (usually) no direct financial motive. That comes later.

o hai did you read my post, i said i'm a designer and do not
consider myself an artist, plus why. lol

[Priam]

Who copy pasted from Vogue what? I'm not even sure what brought this up, I just hear a whole lot of criticism of "AC people" and it's kind of disheartening. I always thought of the AC as a place where posters aren't held up to some template of what an artist should be and bashed for their lack of artistic insight. What made me want to post here is what I said above. There are ways to be critical and not hurt people's feelings. You don't have to insult someone for them to understand you're better at art than they are. And constructive criticism, delivered with a little tact, goes much farther than being rude in my opinion.

I'm not saying I'm never going to try to improve Priam. Or that I'm comfortable in my box. I'm saying I'm never going to be a serious artist, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

Vogue was an example I apparently very cleverly made up.

I don't see why I should be all loving and tender about it. When I critique with an insult, not that I normally do, i'm not insulting them to show them i'm superior (Never said i was btw.), i'm just insulting them cause what they did was probably stupid, and i think the person in question is an idiot. Not gonna censor things, there's really no need to.

[lavapockets]

When I critique with an insult, not that I normally do, i'm not insulting them to show them i'm superior (Never said i was btw.), i'm just insulting them cause what they did was probably stupid, and i think the person in question is an idiot. Not gonna censor things, there's really no need to.

How very mature of you.

[Priam]

If immature means being allowed to be inconsiderate at times, then i'll be immature, no problem.

[cin]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=83277

[Hostage]

Ok so I just woke up from a nap and went through the majority of the comments.

First off, I just wanna say this is probably the best AC thread ever made. Agree with me or not but it erects the cockles of my heart!

Now srs bzzness time. A lot sounded like jibberish with a few key points that were worth addressing..."Critiscm"...IF your mentality about someones critique is "is what a douche he could say that sooo much better!" then you're not reading/posting for criticism or just here what you're really here for is to have your hand held and people tell you " 9/10 definootly~! I just oragsmed from muy eyes zomg!" Which I'm sure I can do if you make it apparent in your thread that you're not looking for any critique. Actually, one of two things will happen then those who feel they will subconsciously just end up critiquing you like that do everyone else (myself)will avoid your thread or they will post something along the lines of what I said before.

That being said I'll refer everyone to reks post I can see if there is some heat on me because I come of harsh (although this solely depends on how you read the post because internet has never been able to portray that tone of voice well)and if that's the case and I hurt your feelings then like I've said before just tell me. I've also said in my defense that since when I do post I'm also posting on at other forums aswell and that transaction from normal GFX forum post to AC post isn't always made all the way before I hit submit.

Bringing me to a point I've already made before. I love that the AC isn't like other GFX forums--that's actually awesome in my eyes. But such a strong transaction in attitudes shouldn't have to be made when it comes to critiquing because in all ideology a critique is a critue. It's always going to be opinion based this is a given, I don't care if you thought we were speaking from facts, it's always opinion based. Unless fundamentals rules are being talked about, those are just proven to always be aesthetically pleasing if followed correct ( I'd also like to stress a bit of self critique because as always there is the odd exception to all rules.

Like Priam emphasized on a point of similarity in sigs I have to agree and I'll quote myself on an earlier post I made:

I just felt that if we could achieve what those larger communities had maybe it would also effect on how we see things maybe start getting a bit eclectic taste rather then that AC template that's slowly formed. Maybe it's just me who sees it but sometimes when I look through various thread I see very similar styles which is disheartening.

That's really all I want to see a shift in attitude, not saying if up your routes and sprout a whole new tree , NO! But it's time to grow some new branches or eventually wither away as a community.

Also I would like to hear whole heartily from the posters in question. I think the problem lies that I feel poster like Melez, Kraq and Dumbo have improved enough to recieve harsh love and cin does not. Am I wrong to think this cin?

(I'm coming off that just woke up dizzy feeling and still have eye boogies. Qucik shower and snack and I'll come back with a more credible post to specific posts made by others. )

[cin]

Also I would like to hear whole heartily from the posters in question. I think the problem lies that I feel poster like Melez, Kraq and Dumbo have improved enough to recieve harsh love and cin does not. Am I wrong to think this cin?

i've never said a word about critiques towards myself. that's
probably because i don't post artwork here that often. i'm
open to any kind of critique tbh, and i have to be or else i
would have never been able to finish my bachelor study in
design. i've also learned that if someone critiques you, you
can listen to that critique and then decide if you want to
use that or not. maybe you even disagree with the critique
of others, since most critique is a person's opinion. the
reason i brought up your way of commenting on tags is that
i felt some of our members had gotten upset by the tone.

[Hostage]

i've never said a word about critiques towards myself. that's
probably because i don't post artwork here that often. i'm
open to any kind of critique tbh, and i have to be or else i
would have never been able to finish my bachelor study in
design. i've also learned that if someone critiques you, you
can listen to that critique and then decide if you want to
use that or not. maybe you even disagree with the critique
of others, since most critique is a person's opinion. the
reason i brought up your way of commenting on tags is that
i felt some of our members had gotten upset by the tone.

I didn't say you I was talking specifically about those " members". I've already said my piece about "tones" over the internet.

EDIT:

K, I see where you could have misunderstood me in my last post.

"I meant I feel that those members have been working long enough and are good enough to receive that tough love. while on the other hand you don't feel the same way."

[cin]

lol hostage.

damn that sentence of yours. you can read it in 2 ways

edit: lol just posted this when you edited your post.

and yeah, i agree on that


:3

[Hostage]

Even if I meant it how you read it initially you couldn't stay mad at me long, pookie.
Testicle smily face right back at ya. :3 *I hate this smilie so much, makes me want to punch child!*

well imo..I think we are seeing these sigs over and over well not by the same peson 100 times. but by other users cuz When they see something nice they feel like to try that too and feel inspired by it..and sometimes to proof themself they can do that too

This is what me and priam are aggravated by. We're not saying it's one person producing the same sig with a different render ( however there are few cases). What we're saying is that the AC has somehow formed this "AC template". Now this could be because since they don't visit other forums, like some of you mentioned, they've closed them selves in simply to the AC and in doing so they are only inspired by what they see here. But that's not what we think is wrong-- it's great that you find something you love so much you want to mimic it but allow you're own traits to shine through aswell, you can still prove to yourself that you can do it and make it original content at the same time. I refer you back to the quote I mentioned back in page 1.

As far as your second point goes, I've already mentioned how lazy as a community we are. We do shit for a week, sometimes barely that, and then it dies. I'm surprised sig wars has lasted as long as it has.

You're last point is just you regurgitating the same thing over without reading past explanations as to why this does not always work and how harmful of a mentality it really is.

I speak from experience. When I started digital art I had received nothing but praise and the "sandwich" technique from the AC and that crippled me. When it came time to venture out to other sites reality hit and my ego was also crushed( believe me their posts are nothing compared to mine if you still find me to be harsh) but in return I gained experience. I gained different view points, I learned art is to realize you can't impress everyone, I learned that ends don't justify the means if you are purely reliant on the work of other. All of this hit me even though I had traditional art teachers from highschool who would break down my art to the very core and I should have known better from the start.

Now like I said before, there are people who I still avoid there topics or post in a very kind way if I know they are new and then there are those who I know have been doing it for several months and should be bale to handle criticism. If all you really want is for your hand to be held and stroked while we tell you " Sweety. That's really good next time try doing it like this too." like you would with a five year old then I'm happy and more then capable of doing that too.

If you see it as me trying to dominate over you rather then respecting you as an equal that's your fault and I feel sorry for you. I can always start making comments like " dud3 that sucks, get at me s0n, you ain't shýt compared to me!" If I wanted to feel dominating. The ban resulting from that would sadden me more then the feelings I would hurt by making posts like that.

Make a new tag in your titles or something stating [Nice-cuty-cuty-rainbows and butterflies]k, over exaggeration on my part. Sorry if you want posts of a certain kind or [CnC] if you want some of another.


ARGH!!! LOOK at me I'm a meanie testicle smily face time! :3

[hitokiri]

I've read so many text wall posts I dont even remember them completely by the time i finished to say who i do and dont agree with, so I'll just post.

Definately from experience of posting work here as well as classes, there is no question criticism is a necessity to learn. Sure, if you make something that leaves someone with no negative comment to give you, congratulations thats great. But it is really important to be able to take criticism and take whatever you can from it to learn. As cin said, its your choice what you want to take from it and try. In my opinion, people should post in the style of:

I dont feel the left side is working, could try this/that to strengthen it

Can you post a version without a border? It would give it a completely different feeling I think

I think I know what style you were going for, check out this tutorial. I think it will help you out

My point isnt so much being nice in your critique, but more importantly to provide something they can take away from it. Saying that border sucks, were you drunk when you set that type, did you vomit in a photoshop file because thats what it looks like, etc. dont do much but hurt the person.

I'm sure the AC has grown in some way with critiquing when I was posting stuff and made things, but it drove me nuts when all I would see is posts saying what was bad, but didnt provide me anywhere to go from there.

Some like being an asshole and others like being nice, however you do it I think as long as it has some substance and some help to the artist, it is usable.

The modern art movement was a movement reusing old art, redoing old paintings, copying artists from the past. They were criticized for just being out of ideas and recycling the same stuff, not being origina. But they were actually using the same techniques or subject matter and bringing a new way to express it and use it which is what Art is all about to me. So go ahead using a repeated technique if you wish, or a certain effect. But bring something new from it. Dont have your goal be "to look like *****'s Sig", have it be to create something.

People will progress however much or little they want. Not everyone may evolve into a new and upcoming artist, simply due to them not looking to do that. Its just their hobby. But still, at least personally, if I have a hobby I'd still like to excel the best of my ability.

I dont know if a post could be more unorganized and confusing, but I'm half awake so leave me alone.

[Kraq]

recently i noticed u only gave bad critiques how are ppl have to get better from that=.= gets anoying after a while...
So get of ur high horse and show some stuff ur stuff more.
We are the ppl that photoshop in our free time, so we post whatever we made new,fastmade or hardworked to get some critiques and comments on. Like you.. you post or use a sig when ur 100% sure it looks fabulous or w/e for ur own feeling.. cuz u think/are doing great with more experience then some of these new AC members. You have to remember we are here to practise

Being on page 1 topic ftw?

In concurrence to Hostage, I don't feel he is "harsh".
For the people that can't take critique and are doing this during their free time, I see why you just wiz by a good critique.

And Hostage has said it before, he feels that you need to improve on your sig.
Not just produce one in 5 minutes then produce another and another.
I agree you need to stick to one until you feel it's done.

I admit, I produce a ton of sigs, posting them on AC right when I'm done.
I don't know why I post in AC because all I get are "Looks nice" "I like ____ "
But I still do

Also, I used to take criticism harshly, personally rather, and just think " He/she is a douchebag"
But once you realize it helps and you actually pay attention to what they are saying, you realize they are trying to help.

It's why I get all giddy when I see Cin,Rek, and Hostage posting in my thread.
I know I'm going to get something good out of it and most likely going to improve from what they are saying

I went oft :{
But, main point is, don't take the critique to heart. It's a critique after all.
Isn't that critique guide stickied?
I think Hostage is just following it, like we all should. But some of you "dislike" him because he is trying to help.

Also, I think ACers should put a label in their op to state that they are looking for a big critique and are willing to take it.

Edit:
Lol, half the stuff I wrote was alraedy stated... Lmao

Also, I want to enter a new subject into this thread.

I think the majority of gfx sites are too technical. I think this plays into the whole "creative and unique" discussion.

I hate it when I see a ton of people being too technical.
For example, "There is no light source (soz melez <3)" "You are going off from the flow" "His hand is coming from no where, WHY IT BE?"

I also did this but stopped when I realized how dumb it was.

Edit:
Also, I have to disagree with you KRAQ! :]
Some technicality is good because people that aren't familiar with art or design will just give you the basic "looks good"
I don't think any of us like recieving a bland comment like that, I remember showing my friends my sigs when I barely started.
They would say "Cool" "Nice man" etc.
And would that help me? No.

So, KRAQ! i think having some technical spin on a comment is good, or just an experienced comment.

[Hostage]

Edit:
Lol, half the stuff I wrote was alraedy stated... Lmao

Also, I want to enter a new subject into this thread.

I think the majority of gfx sites are too technical. I think this plays into the whole "creative and unique" discussion.

I hate it when I see a ton of people being too technical.
For example, "There is no light source (soz melez <3)" "You are going off from the flow" "His hand is coming from no where, WHY IT BE?"

I also did this but stopped when I realized how dumb it was.

I can see why you feel like that but you have to realize we pale in comparison when it comes to community size with forums who are specific to art and GFX art. So unlike us they can't really get to know everyone and their styles on a personal level leaving them to only judge on a technical level. That's the double edge sword however....while smaller communities like ours are able to help almost on a step by step basis we don't really get that technical critique that's needed sometimes and we tend baby each other a lot more too.

Like I said a few post back a critique is always opinion based whether it be coming from a personal level or technical--if they say something like "There is no light source (soz melez <3)" it's usually up to you whether to thank them for their time and move on or take what they said in consideration.

[Melez]

Hehe I do critique, but never said I was creative in it.