US on the edge of collapse?

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destructionmama
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US on the edge of collapse?

Post by destructionmama »

http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html

My friend send me this article, in some ways I think its hold some good points, however I don't think US will be divided as a nation, since they're pretty patriotic, at least from what I know.

Discuss

P.S. no USA WE SUPER WILL NEVER FALL comments plz :) just wanna have a good discussion.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Reise »

IIRC people were saying the same stuff about Russia when the wall came down.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by dom »

**** America. There is literally a coup d'etat going on in Canada right now.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by destructionmama »

dom wrote:**** America. There is literally a coup d'etat going on in Canada right now.


ya that's true lol, I totally forgot we're facing dethrone-ing too lol. I didn't vote for conservatives anyways so meh~
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by dom »

destructionmama wrote:
dom wrote:**** America. There is literally a coup d'etat going on in Canada right now.


ya that's true lol, I totally forgot we're facing dethrone-ing too lol. I didn't vote for conservatives anyways so meh~


It doesn't matter. When hundreds of millions of dollars are spent for an election, and the elected party gains the most votes it has ever gotten in history - and "Canada's political party" the least - it's not right for them to simply assume power because they're not happy that they did not win.

What needs to be done is the establishment of a proportional representation system.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by destructionmama »

dom wrote:It doesn't matter. When hundreds of millions of dollars are spent for an election, and the elected party gains the most votes it has ever gotten in history - and "Canada's political party" the least - it's not right for them to simply assume power because they're not happy that they did not win.

What needs to be done is the establishment of a proportional representation system.


You got a point there, because the parties does not represent the whole Canadian population. But what do you mean by representation system? like each party should get equal amount of seats? or something else? please expand
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

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MOSCOW, November 24 (RIA Novosti) - A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts.

Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily Izvestia published on Monday: "The dollar is not secured by anything. The country's foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse."

The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago at a time when the economy appeared strong, have been given more credence by this year's events.

When asked when the U.S. economy would collapse, Panarin said: "It is already collapsing. Due to the financial crisis, three of the largest and oldest five banks on Wall Street have already ceased to exist, and two are barely surviving. Their losses are the biggest in history. Now what we will see is a change in the regulatory system on a global financial scale: America will no longer be the world's financial regulator."

When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in Eurasia."

Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the U.S. will get worse. Millions of citizens there have lost their savings. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. General Motors and Ford are on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities will be left without work. Governors are already insistently demanding money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the moment it is only being held back by the elections and the hope that Obama can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are no miracles."

He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear in these crisis conditions."

He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong.

He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all."

On the fate of the U.S. dollar, he said: "In 2006 a secret agreement was reached between Canada, Mexico and the U.S. on a common Amero currency as a new monetary unit. This could signal preparations to replace the dollar. The one-hundred dollar bills that have flooded the world could be simply frozen. Under the pretext, let's say, that terrorists are forging them and they need to be checked."

When asked how Russia should react to his vision of the future, Panarin said: "Develop the ruble as a regional currency. Create a fully functioning oil exchange, trading in rubles... We must break the strings tying us to the financial Titanic, which in my view will soon sink."

Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored several books on information warfare.


It seems to me that, in our days, many predictions are spread across the world to influence on people's mentality, such as the world war in 2008 due to the war in Middle East, the end of oil in 2050 due to its mass consumption, the end of schools in 2010 due to a lack of teachers, the apocalypse in 2012 which is pure fiction. However, many of these predictions are simply speculation, or simple methods to make us citizens save more money for the state (which is the case of all those predictions on how oil will end soon). In the end, most of them are false.
It is how Professor Igor Panarin, the author of this text, has based his ideas. What we have here is another attempt of brain-washing a few citizens. But why would Panarin want to do so, what are the political reasons behind this, if there are any?


This document is obviously political. It has been written by a "professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs" (mentioned in the end of the text), in the 24th December 2008, quite a few months after the crisis began. The author was born, and lived through the heart of the Cold War in the middle of the past century, during which russian kids were most likely told to hate Americans and vice-versa. Thus, Panarin probably developped a bad point of view upon the United States during and after his childhood.
Which is why his arguments are susceptible to be based on a negative point of view upon the actual status of the U.S.A., and thus not 100% reliable. An example of his pessimism can be found in his second answer to the interview:
"It is already collapsing[...]Their losses are the biggest in history.


As we can see, this is solid proof on how he is being pessimist, and not reliable, as his argument on how the current "losses are the biggest in history" is purely exageration and thus false, as there have been moments in history in which the population went through worse losses. An example is what happened to Germany after the first world war, they tried to make tons of coins in order to recover from the war, which led them to become even more poor as the value of every coin eventually went straight downhill.
As for a second proof of his pessimism, which I'll not go into details this time:

Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the U.S. will get worse.

Starting his argument by his conclusion is indeed "very smart". It just immediatly shows he is not saying this from a neutral point of view.


I have mentined, in the introduction to my arguments, the probability of a political reason behind this. In fact, it would be plausible to believe this could be an attempt to bring Russia back to power, as they went downhill after the end of the Cold War. Professor Igor mentions this kind of idea in his second reply to the interview:

When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in Eurasia."


It's indeed quite interesting how he brings China into this. Let's not forget that China's government still is Communist. Moreover, this country isn't yet developped nor rich enough to assume the role being played by the States in this right moment. I have to agree China will maybe be one of the most powerfull countries in the world by the next century, but not at this right moment.
Even more interesting when he mentions Russia (his own country). The European Union would be by far a better choice to "play the role of a regulator in Eurasia" as it is in average much richer than Russia, if not comparable to the United States. For example, the european currency (the Euro) is one of the most powerfull currencies in the world, and also the fastest growing, superior to the American Dollar and sooner or later superior to the english Pound.
Another proof on how Panarim is somehow claiming power for Russia is in his 6th reply to the interview:

He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all."

Why would they claim more territory? It is in people's mentality, since the age of roman emperors, that bigger the territory of a country, the more it is a symbol of power.
As a last argument, this is his last answer to the interviewer:

When asked how Russia should react to his vision of the future, Panarin said: "Develop the ruble as a regional currency. Create a fully functioning oil exchange, trading in rubles... We must break the strings tying us to the financial Titanic, which in my view will soon sink."

It is obvious that an idependent country with its own ressources is much more powerfull than a country that depends on others to get ressources. Take on example the States and Japan. The USA have their own ressources and that's one of the factors that makes it a strong country: it can influence over other countries. In the other hand, Japan has no inner ressources and is depending on other countries to continue developping. Even though it is the most developped country in the world, in terms of technology, if one day they have to go on exploiting their own ressources, they're most likely doomed. Such countries can be very easily manipulated by other independent countries ("if you don't do this then I don't give you ressources etc."), one of the reasons Japan doesn't have the Nuclear Bomb (the USA won't let them).
The point of all this is, independent countries have influence (more like control) over dependent countries. If Russia fully becomes one, they will eventually have more power all over the world.


To put a conclusion to this long comment, in my opinion what we have here is another attempt to bring Russia to power, by brain-washing citizens using speculation (not always real), based on real facts (the crisis), all the way written by a pessimist and not so reliable russian professor.




Yea, you learn quite a lot from highschool, especially how to write these sorts of long comments :wink:
Last edited by NinjaNihonto on Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Crumpets »

I feel so bad for Obama =/ Got given a speeding car with no brakes.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by ImmortalKiller »

Crumpets wrote:I feel so bad for Obama =/ Got given a speeding car with no brakes.

And if it goes below 30 miles an hour...

It blows up!
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

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ImmortalKiller wrote:
Crumpets wrote:I feel so bad for Obama =/ Got given a speeding car with no brakes.

And if it goes below 30 miles an hour...

It blows up!


Bus =/= Car ;o
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Midori »

destructionmama wrote:http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html

My friend send me this article, in some ways I think its hold some good points, however I don't think US will be divided as a nation, since they're pretty patriotic, at least from what I know.

Discuss

P.S. no USA WE SUPER WILL NEVER FALL comments plz :) just wanna have a good discussion.


Russian propaganda? Don't trust what a Russian website has to say, they've been known to lie.

Crumpets wrote:I feel so bad for Obama =/ Got given a speeding car with no brakes.


Take the foot off of the gas petal?
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by NinjaNihonto »

X-Lax wrote:
destructionmama wrote:http://en.rian.ru/world/20081124/118512713.html

My friend send me this article, in some ways I think its hold some good points, however I don't think US will be divided as a nation, since they're pretty patriotic, at least from what I know.

Discuss

P.S. no USA WE SUPER WILL NEVER FALL comments plz :) just wanna have a good discussion.


Russian propaganda? Don't trust what a Russian website has to say, they've been known to lie.

Thats what I have prooved in post before... only no one here is up to read and reply to entire serious comments (when this is supposed to be a serious discussion).
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Argonaut »

X-Lax wrote:Russian propaganda? Don't trust what a Russian website has to say, they've been known to lie.



Yes, because the American media is so reliable. :roll:
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by CrimsonNuker »

X-Lax wrote:
Crumpets wrote:I feel so bad for Obama =/ Got given a speeding car with no brakes.


Take the foot off of the gas petal?


What if the gas petal is stuck and theres a dinosaur in the backseat? What does obama do now?
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Tasdik »

CrimsonNuker wrote:
X-Lax wrote:
Crumpets wrote:I feel so bad for Obama =/ Got given a speeding car with no brakes.


Take the foot off of the gas petal?


What if the gas petal is stuck and theres a dinosaur in the backseat? What does obama do now?

Accuses the dinosaur of being Racist :wink:

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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Jstar1 »

its just another way for russia to hope that the US will fail
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Grimjaw »

Go Japan. :love: :twisted:
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by BlackFox898 »

Spoiler!


WHERE THE $#*! DO PPL GET THE TIME TO WRITE THIS!?!!?
anyways, that's just Russia's on the US, the Russians aren't a big fan of Obama from what i've heard so they may be stretching the true a little. As for back home in Canada we got this problem like dom and destructionmama have been talking about is this ****ing retarded coalition government crap and we have only had the election 45 days ago. Waste of money.
Last edited by BlackFox898 on Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by TOloseGT »

meh, china ftw
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by NinjaNihonto »

BlackFox898 wrote:
Spoiler!


WHERE THE $#*! DO PPL GET THE TIME TO WRITE THIS!?!!?
anyways, that's just Russia's on the US, the Russians aren't a big fan of Obama from what i've heard so they may be stretching the true a little. As for back home in Canada we got this problem like dom and destructionmama have been talking about is this ****ing retarded coalition government crap and we have only had the election 45 days ago. Waste of money.

I didn't quote it... I wrote it myself (the answer to that interview, not the interview). I was sick today and I didn't go to school... so instead I wrote that argumented answer to the interview for about 30 minutes, it's kinda what we do at school, only I have to write even more during exams :P
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

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TOloseGT wrote:meh, china ftw


chinas communist and russias full of ex-commie officials so NO
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Barotix »

America has got a long way to go before hyperinflation kicks in, but our civil servants are playing with fire; they best be careful or we might get burned. America is not on the "brink of collapse" but we're edging pretty damn close to it; I like to think our civil servants will stop being plutocrats for a second and realize that their decisions as of late have not been sound, economically. I much preferred egalitarianism, even though I disagree with it for socio-economic reasons, to this form of corporatism we're heading towards. No, not towards collapse. The dollar might collapse, but the country will just change for the [fill in your thoughts on how the country will change here].

Edit* Would someone like to fill me in on the Canada situation? Maybe I should check bbc >__>
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by NinjaNihonto »

Barotix wrote:America has got a long way to go before hyperinflation kicks in, but our civil servants are playing with fire; they best be careful or we might get burned. America is not on the "brink of collapse" but we're edging pretty damn close to it; I like to think our civil servants will stop being plutocrats for a second and realize that their decisions as of late have not been sound, economically. I much preferred egalitarianism, even though I disagree with it for socio-economic reasons, to this form of corporatism we're heading towards. No, not towards collapse. The dollar might collapse, but the country will just change for the [fill in your thoughts on how the country will change here].

Edit* Would someone like to fill me in on the Canada situation? Maybe I should check bbc >__>

I have to disagree with the fact America is even close to the brink of collapse, which is one of the opinions I express all over tha tone big comment I have made in this thread before. I haven't clearly mentioned my personal opinion on this, but I think that as long as Americans don't do something irreversible, the States won't collaspe like that. America collapsing would be an ultimatum, it's the most powerfull country in the world after all.
And so far, they haven't done anything irreversible. General Motors is going downhill, but it didn't cease to exist yet. A few banks in the wall street might have been closed, but they're not all down either. America still has many chances to fully recover from this crisis and I don't see it going down, to the point of collapsing, anytime soon. However, I must agree with you when you say americans shouldn't play with fire, because if they don't manage to recover now, things will only get much worse. I'd exclude the possibility of America collapsing, for now.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by BlackFox898 »

Barotix wrote:Edit* Would someone like to fill me in on the Canada situation? Maybe I should check bbc >__>


them noobs(liberals, bloc, ndp) lost the election 2 months and now there are crying about harper not being a good PM. so they all got in bed with each other and wanna take him down, and in these times we really don't need a 350 million dollar election. Thus conflict.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by SM-Count »

The article was loading and I read in my title bar "Russian analysts say . . ." and I stopped reading, no reason to read on. If history repeats itself, and it will, the U.S. will be fine.

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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by dom »

BlackFox898 wrote:
Barotix wrote:Edit* Would someone like to fill me in on the Canada situation? Maybe I should check bbc >__>


them noobs(liberals, bloc, ndp) lost the election 2 months and now there are crying about harper not being a good PM. so they all got in bed with each other and wanna take him down, and in these times we really don't need a 350 million dollar election. Thus conflict.


Would be important to add that the bloc is a seperatist party, while the liberals have been THE federalist party. The last provincial election was the worst ever performing for the provincial bloc party, proving that seperatism is no longer a political issue. Add to that the fact that the Liberals had their WORST performance in an election ever.

These clowns, along with the NDP, are trying to assume power from a government we elected 2 months ago, by the greatest margin its ever won.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by destructionmama »

Ya I can't imagine if the US government were to collapse, what the world will become in the next few years. Probably will lead into a third World war, which is no good, because we all have nukes now.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Snoopy »

Australia ftw. We are one of few countries, suffering the least from this "economic melt-down". We have some of the most sturdy banks in the world, and hope it can remain like so.

I can't see Russia being a big power-player in world economies. India and China are great competitors in the Asian economies. :)
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

Post by Reise »

Russia is working on expanding their agriculture, they have more available farmland than the US. I can see them easily taking our place.
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Re: US on the edge of collapse?

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destructionmama wrote:Ya I can't imagine if the US government were to collapse, what the world will become in the next few years. Probably will lead into a third World war, which is no good, because we all have nukes now.


May I reiterate, the US likes to police the world, However without them being the "richest/strongest" whatever country in the world, the world will go on.

Many countries have had their turn to shine.

Greece
Italy
Britain
Japan
USA
(I'm sure there are others also)

Just because you are no longer the worlds strongest country, does not mean the world will suffer.
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