Iraq by the numbers

[Jstar1]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... over_x.htm

it doesn't take an einstein to know that having another country occupy you for 5 years isn't going to make you happy.

Posted 4/28/2004 3:32 PM Updated 4/30/2004 6:54 AM

Very very strong failure.

hmm I don't see you posting news articles about how polls show that Iraqis are thankful for the americans coming into their country.

its a quick search on google, im sure anyone could find an article more recent. So before you go around telling people that they fail, take your time and look for an article that says that iraqis love america, before you start making yourself stupid with idiotic claims that iraqis like the american occupation. Or perhaps you can ask avanti's 2 cousins' iraqi friends, who represent the entire iraqi population.

[Stallowned]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... over_x.htm

it doesn't take an einstein to know that having another country occupy you for 5 years isn't going to make you happy.

Posted 4/28/2004 3:32 PM Updated 4/30/2004 6:54 AM

Very very strong failure.

hmm I don't see you posting news articles about how polls show that Iraqis are thankful for the americans coming into their country.

its a quick search on google, im sure anyone could find an article more recent. So before you go around telling people that they fail, take your time and look for an article that says that iraqis love america, before you start making yourself stupid with idiotic claims that iraqis like the american occupation. Or perhaps you can ask avanti's 2 cousins' iraqi friends, who represent the entire iraqi population.

If you come out throwing "facts" you should be the one providing sources and information.
No one said sh1t about Iraqis wanting us in or out until you posted.

[JacksColon]

[quote="Stallowned"]

Let me clarify that I never said going in was a good idea in the first place.

Yes some Iraqis want us out, but to say they all do is just ridiculous. Also IF they want us out it is because of the insurgents who attack on Iraqi civilians to drive us out (kind of pointless ? )

I'll take the word of my Soldier and Marine buddies who have actually been there over news stations that are known to take every possible jab against the US. Many Iraqis want to be free, they want a stable functioning government that isn't opressive, they want the terrorists out. Unfortunately in order for that to happen we have to stay there, war isn't pretty so accidents happen.

I like that you agree that immediately getting the hell out of there isn't a good idea. It isn't unpatriotic to question why we went in or how it was handled, but actually wishing failure on our part and death to our people over there (yes I've seen a lot of people want that) should get your ass deported.

Let me ask though. What is really wrong with establishing a government there that is helpful to our interests (assuming the government is not opressive)?

quote]

I'm not saying that the soldier or marine is incorrect, but I have heard differing stories, even from soldiers. One of my best friends spent 14 months over there. He said it's a shithole, he had friends die and that you can't trust most of the citizens. He said Falluja, where he was for a long time, was extremely quiet because the Marines had basically parked their asses there and the insurgents weren't dumb enough to do a head-on attack. He said most firefights were just pointless lobbing of fire long distances by both sides, never really seeing who/what you're hitting. I heard similar from another buddy. But they both said it's a shithole. Regardless, I think having some soldiers say they love us and other say that you can't trust anyone is indicative of the situation. I think the media often does a shit job, but I also think they were too busy being cheerleaders for the war in 2003, rather than asking tough questions.

And, to clarify, I never said all Iraqis hate us. Go poll the Kurds, they love us. They're iraqis, but I think most people keep forgetting that fact

I the problem with using the accidents happen excuse is that it's used in a situation that shouldn't have occurred. Now yes, that's getting back to whether or not we should've gone in, but it's something that needs to be taken into account when discussing things such as this. We are there, and accidents happen and continue to, but had we not gone in, they wouldn't have, see my point? Now, we are there, so we have to do the best do make sure they don't happen. But, I don't think our soldiers have been given adequate training in peace keeping/nation building. I mean, think about this...mortar rounds or small arms fire comes from a building...often in this case, what happens? The soldiers do what they would logically do, call in air support. So, an F-16 comes rolling in an drops a 1000lbs bomb on a house that the gunfire seems to be coming from. Well, the explosion isn't going to just **** that house up now is it?

What is wrong with it is that it establishes (established) a very dangerous precident that in future years we mave have to re-evaluate. This president has greatly increased executive power, and has (virtually) unilaterally invaded a soveriegn nation, toppled it's government, and helped set up a regime more in accord to it's liking. I'm sorry, but that sort of shit ain't gonna fly in most situations, but I don't think our leaders are smart enough to distinguish when it's a good idea and when it's not (and it's not a good idea 99% of the time)

[XemnasXD]

Stall your really stupid sometimes. The polls are the only credible source of info anyone has on the war and yes we can all question where they are from and how they are conducted but the fact remains that right now they are the best and only way for people like you and me to monitor the peoples opinions over there. You could've Googled this yourself Otherwise we get subjected to Avanti's method, the one you seem to prefer, "My cousin told me that some guy he talked to said that all of Iraq loves us" im going to trust that over the info presented in the above link....yeah.

This isn't even rocket science here picture how Americans would have felt if during the Civil War France and Britain teamed up, came over to the US and attempted to restore order...do you think we'd be happy. The same logic applies.

People like you are the bread and butter of Americas imperialist movement. Filled with ideas that the rest of the world is incapable of handling itself without our interference to guide them and show them a better way. You must be an idiot if you think that the only reason why Iraqis wouldn't want American Soldiers taking over their country is because of the insurgents. Completely ignoring the fact that these are people who can think and decide what is right for themselves, 200 years ago we had no qualms with over-throwing our ruling government. 50 years ago India had no qualms with over-throwing their oppressive regime. When people really truly want change they stand up and get it done themselves, they don't need someone coming over to them, telling them what they need, and how to go about it, then doing it for them, and then realizing after 5 years of bullshit that "we've made a huge mistake." Thats not helping anyone and so far it hasn't helped anyone.

BTW genius the terrorist are in afgan not iraq get your conflicts straight. If the Iraqi people want a strong, stable, self-governing, self dependent nation they should get up and DO IT THEMSELVES. You can't expect them to ever be able to stand on their own if we are doing it for them. IF we pull out now yes things are going to get real messy and we only have ourselves to blame for that. What will emerge from Iraq though if the country is left to itself after much trial and error is a country capable of handling itself.

[Stallowned]

I was gonna post something but it would get me banned. I'll just say I could do with having a certain fcking someone's head on a got damn plate right th efck now.

You're so incredibly biased and ridiculous talking with you is pointless because you keep coming back with the same sh1t every damn time, avoiding the point and making dubmassed assumptions.

[XemnasXD]

You're so incredibly biased and ridiculous talking with you is pointless because you keep coming back with the same sh1t every damn time, avoiding the point and making dubmassed assumptions.

Same goes for you, thats a rap, and im done here

/gone

[Stallowned]

Ok lets fcking duke this sh1t the fck out.
I'll meet you half fcking way.

[heroo]

I'm saying that the iraqis generally hate america.

Says who?

says me.

I'm from Iraq and i've been there 4 times since the war.

They do not hate the U.S, but they think you should leave the country now, that's all. But the U.S really farked it up with Abu Graib. Since Abu Graib, almost the half of the Iraqi's hate the U.S' soldiers. The other half just want you guys to leave.

Iraq is an anarchy.There is no order and there won't be an order for a long time i think.

[JacksColon]

Heroo makes a good point.

There are going to be numbers of iraqis who hate us, there will be those that love us..
there are those that don't have any strong feeling..but, I do think there is a strong sentiment among lots of Iraqis, regardless of their feelings towards of the US, that they want us out. They don't have to HATE us to want us gone.

[Pilot]

Stall your really stupid sometimes. The polls are the only credible source of info anyone has on the war and yes we can all question where they are from and how they are conducted but the fact remains that right now they are the best and only way for people like you and me to monitor the peoples opinions over there. You could've Googled this yourself Otherwise we get subjected to Avanti's method, the one you seem to prefer, "My cousin told me that some guy he talked to said that all of Iraq loves us" im going to trust that over the info presented in the above link....yeah.

This isn't even rocket science here picture how Americans would have felt if during the Civil War France and Britain teamed up, came over to the US and attempted to restore order...do you think we'd be happy. The same logic applies.

People like you are the bread and butter of Americas imperialist movement. Filled with ideas that the rest of the world is incapable of handling itself without our interference to guide them and show them a better way. You must be an idiot if you think that the only reason why Iraqis wouldn't want American Soldiers taking over their country is because of the insurgents. Completely ignoring the fact that these are people who can think and decide what is right for themselves, 200 years ago we had no qualms with over-throwing our ruling government. 50 years ago India had no qualms with over-throwing their oppressive regime. When people really truly want change they stand up and get it done themselves, they don't need someone coming over to them, telling them what they need, and how to go about it, then doing it for them, and then realizing after 5 years of bullshit that "we've made a huge mistake." Thats not helping anyone and so far it hasn't helped anyone.

BTW genius the terrorist are in afgan not iraq get your conflicts straight. If the Iraqi people want a strong, stable, self-governing, self dependent nation they should get up and DO IT THEMSELVES. You can't expect them to ever be able to stand on their own if we are doing it for them. IF we pull out now yes things are going to get real messy and we only have ourselves to blame for that. What will emerge from Iraq though if the country is left to itself after much trial and error is a country capable of handling itself.

lol. Anti-American.
You are wrong on all accounts, and like stall says, you make too many assumptions.

Iraq may have been a mistake, but our foreign policy isn't, you liberal haters. The world isn't as smart as we'd like it to be. They are mostly dumb apes unable to control themselves and the thing is, they never have. Africa and the Mid East are prime examples of humans failing at life. And terrorists are everywhere. And we're also in Afghanistan-have been even before Iraq.

[JacksColon]

lol. Anti-American.
You are wrong on all accounts, and like stall says, you make too many assumptions.

Iraq may have been a mistake, but our foreign policy isn't, you liberal haters. The world isn't as smart as we'd like it to be. They are mostly dumb apes unable to control themselves and the thing is, they never have. Africa and the Mid East are prime examples of humans failing at life. And terrorists are everywhere. And we're also in Afghanistan-have been even before Iraq.

Wow, so, you're wrong, racist and ignorant all in one post. This one takes the cake.

[Trice]

Africa and the Mid East are prime examples of humans failing at life.

If you are referring to the mistakes the West have made in both these regions, you are correct.

If you are just being racist, ignorant and stupid, you are wrong.

*hums the Jeopardy music*

[JacksColon]

Africa and the Mid East are prime examples of humans failing at life.

If you are referring to the mistakes the West have made in both these regions, you are correct.

If you are just being racist, ignorant and stupid, you are wrong.

*hums the Jeopardy music*

+1 Trice, thanks

Africa, the Middle East and much of the developing world are in shambles BECAUSE of shit foreign policy on the part of the US, the UK and other colonizers over the centuries. Pilot is just being a complete ignorant tosser.

[ArchYourFace]

bush farked it up.

time to accept the consequences.

you really thought you could go enter Iraq, take all the oil and then leave like nothing happened?

think again.

wasn't referring to you.

but to the bush adminstration.

how much oil did they get exactly?

This was never responded to as far as im aware. The whole thread became overwhelmed by the opinions of political and military geniuses.

Could you justify youre accusation that the bush administration came in, and stole oil? I do not support the bush administration at all, but I have heard many comments like this, with no backing argument.

[JacksColon]

I'll respond.



Finding information about the much-discussed but barely reported Iraqi hydrocarbon law has been about as easy as finding information about which specific breed of puppy the vice president uses in his top secret ghoul smoothies. (Answer: all of them. The VPOTUS has also mentioned in private that adorable baby orangutans are "crumbelievable.") Hence, my daily search to learn more about the law has met with results ranging from brief mentions by Tony Snow to the repetition of the same information first reported by The Independent.

But TomPaine.com is now reporting that the controversial profit-sharing agreements (PSAs) have been stripped (in theory) from the law.

The PSAs, as originally reported by The Independent, would have allowed Western oil robber barons to slip into Baghdad and hork Iraqi oil for 30 years and, in the near term, the PSAs would've allowed Vice President Cheney's advisors at Shell, Exxon-Mobil and BP to keep around 75 percent of the profits.

The legislation was brokered by the financially embattled BearingPoint corporation in McLean, Virginia, and The Independent further reported that as much as $117,000 was donated to both Bush campaigns, in addition to other contributions to several ranking Republicans on the House defense appropriations subcommittee. BearingPoint's Iraq contract from your federal government? $240 million, according to The Independent.

The president's escalation plan and the passage of the hydrocarbon law, which is expected by March, are converging in a spooky yet well-lubricated coitus and all but confirms many of our suspicions that the president's most excellent adventure has, indeed, been about oil profits and his own 2004 re-election plans (see his remarks regarding war presidents). Reuters reports:

"Passing an oil law to help settle potentially explosive disputes among Iraq's ethnic and sectarian communities over the division of oil reserves has been a key demand of the United States in providing further military support to the government."

That'd be your escalation-slash-oil "coincidence." In the same article, which primarily reported on the passage of the law in the Iraqi Oil Committee, Reuters buried the following quote on page four of their story:

"If the legal problems are solved by the oil law, that's good news," said a senior Western oil executive.

"But security issues are a much bigger issue. The big money will not go to Baghdad unless it's convinced that employees and contractors won't be abducted, shot or killed."

Of course reducing the violence in Baghdad should be a huge priority... so civilians can walk the streets and eat and go to work and worship without, you know, dying. But dammit, securing the streets of Baghdad with American blood so Rich Western Oil Executive White Guy X can breathe easier? Sorry, no.

And now, even without the thievery of the PSAs, it looks like there's still language in the law that will allow the oil companies to get what they were (allegedly) promised in those secret energy policy meetings with Vice President Cheney.

Antonia Juhasz, a visiting scholar at Institute for Policy Studies, reports for TomPaine.com that no-one really knows the actual specifics of the law, including and especially the Iraqi people. Secrecy, after all, is the hallmark of Bush-style democracy (secretive democracy is not unlike, say, pro-Jew Nazism). What is known, however, is:

"[The hydrocarbon law] also grants foreign oil companies "national treatment," which means that the Iraqi government cannot give preference to Iraqi oil companies (whether public or privately owned) over foreign-owned companies when it chooses contractors. This provision alone will severely cripple the government's ability to ensure that Iraqis gain as much economic benefit as possible from their oil."

So here's a thumbnail of what we could be facing in the coming months and years.

--After the hydrocarbon law is passed, an enormous influx in Big Oil lobbyists and negotiators will certainly ride into Baghdad like well-dressed ticks clinging tenaciously to the necks of our soldiers -- thirsty and driven to apply an onslaught of coercive pressure on the weak and vulnerable Iraqi government. Their goal: to attain epic deals not unlike the ones previewed by the apparently defunct PSAs

--As huge oil profits are fleeced from the Iraqi people by Western multinationals, insurgents will be further motivated to continue the civil war. Presuming that security will dictate Big Oil's level of activity in Baghdad, the violence won't be as significant there but you can count on continued and increased bloodshed in Anbar province and elsewhere.

--The Sunnis, who lack any real oil, and their allies in al-Qaeda will be further motivated to seek revenge on Western and Shi'ite targets inside and outside of Iraq. American soldiers and Iraqi civilians will continue to be caught in the middle of it all -- at least until 2009, with blowback stretching deep into the future.

Tell me again, Bush Republicans, how this isn't about oil. Tell me again, Bush Republicans, how this helps to end the civil war and prevents further terrorism.

Tuesday night, in his State of the Union address, the president might comment about the Iraqi oil law and he'll do his very best to make it taste just like a peach -- wealth and unity for the Iraqi people and such. Two years ago, in his 2005 State of the Union, it was all about the purple fingers. Two years ago, he predicted great victories for our soldiers and the Iraqi citizens as the result of the purple fingers. Congressmen embarrassed themselves by strutting around with purple fingers as if they had personal blood invested in the effort for the Iraqi vote. Two years later, things are worse. The destruction and secrecy and the back-room deals continue. The civil war and occupation and profiteering escalates. And the mainstream press continues to ignore this law: a disgusting and perverse side of the Iraq story. In her article, Antonia Juhasz mentioned an opportunity to make some news tomorrow:

On January 23, the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations will hold a hearing to investigate "oil and reconstruction strategy in Iraq." This offers a critical opportunity to demand a cessation of all U.S. government and corporate influence over Iraqis as to the future of their oil.

Here's the link to contact the members, including Senators Feingold, Boxer, Webb, Obama and Dodd. If we're ever going to get out of there and allow the Iraqi people to prosper in a way that doesn't involve deepening -- escalating -- their resentment, distrust and, ultimately violence, towards the West, now's the time. And it could all hinge on this law, or, rather, how American profiteers will exploit it.

[JacksColon]

granted, that info is from 2007, but it's still pretty relevant today

[JacksColon]

Also, the cost of this war on the American taxpayer MUST be taken into account when discussing "Iraq by the numbers"

Estimates of what the war has cost Americans vary considerably. The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office estimates $600bn (£300bn) has been spent on the war so far, including this year's appropriations.

Nobel-prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz calculates that the war will cost $3 trillion (£1.5 trillion) once health care for veterans and future economic losses are considered..


and, it seems like violence is starting to rear it's ugly head again, and mistakes keep happening.

Today, a female suicide bomber killed six people at a bus station in Balad Ruz in Diyala province, according to Iraqi police.

And near the northern city of Kirkuk, US troops shot dead three Iraqi policemen by mistake, an incident officials described as "a tragic accident, which was sincerely regretted".

[XemnasXD]

Africa and the Mid East are prime examples of humans failing at life.

If you are referring to the mistakes the West have made in both these regions, you are correct.

If you are just being racist, ignorant and stupid, you are wrong.

*hums the Jeopardy music*

trice is win

[Pilot]

Africa and the Mid East are prime examples of humans failing at life.

If you are referring to the mistakes the West have made in both these regions, you are correct.

If you are just being racist, ignorant and stupid, you are wrong.

*hums the Jeopardy music*

trice is win

Sure, we say colonization and slavery was wrong today, but was it wrong back then? No. Was environmental pollution always an issue? Was ethnic cleansing or un-provoked invasion always frowned upon by humanity?

There are many, many things today that we hold drastically different views than our ancestors have done before us. What was right and accepted back then is usually all comdemned today. Blaming colonization of the African and Mid East continents by the Occident isn't a justifiable reason to why they're worlds apart from us in terms of technology, education and standard of living. There is no one to blame but them. There are many countries today subjected to colonization and worse that are now respectable partners of the normal world community. Faced with similar situations, some countries pulled through, and some didn't purely through their own idiocy. They are represented by the Middle East and Africa. They are so far behind the rest of the world, it will never be possible for any of them to catch up. Its simply impossible for the Western world to provide for our own people and provide for the less fortunate.

Iraq was a mistake. Any military venture into Africa and the Middle east is a mistake. Period. The biggest problem now is not the war, but how to end it responsibly and effectively.

[XemnasXD]

Pilots that is exactly the reason why those areas are so far behind as far as technology, education, and standards of living. Im not going to sit here and explain the easy concepts of the sociology involved because it would be a waste of breath, if its one thing i've learned is that if someone doesn't want to see something they don't won't listen even if you have over 500 years of history as an example backing you up. So i'll simply say you are wrong and yes i know thats extremely pretentious and as far as you know baseless but i don't have the time to teach and i don't think you'd be willing to learn.

[Stallowned]

Pilots that is exactly the reason why those areas are so far behind as far as technology, education, and standards of living. Im not going to sit here and explain the easy concepts of the sociology involved because it would be a waste of breath, if its one thing i've learned is that if someone doesn't want to see something they don't won't listen even if you have over 500 years of history as an example backing you up. So i'll simply say you are wrong and yes i know thats extremely pretentious and as far as you know baseless but i don't have the time to teach and i don't think you'd be willing to learn.

Stop trying to act like colonized areas were prosperous and thriving civilizations before they were colonized.

Colonization had many negative effects, but contrarty to what you're saying it had a positive effect of the Europeans bringing with them a lot of the infrastructure such as roads and factories, education, hospitals, etc.

[XemnasXD]

stallowned you've already proved you don't have a good grasp of international politics or world history so stop acting like you do. Like i said i don't have time to give a history lesson but believe me everything that Europe had Africa either had or didn't need. Theres more to life than technology ppl like the Amish are a testament to concepts like that. I'll be the first to admit Africa was not a paradise or anywhere close but it was a functioning balanced society with everything it needed b4 colonization and later slavery.

[Stallowned]

stallowned you've already proved you don't have a good grasp of international politics or world history so stop acting like you do. Like i said i don't have time to give a history lesson but believe me everything that Europe had Africa either had or didn't need. Theres more to life than technology ppl like the Amish are a testament to concepts like that. I'll be the first to admit Africa was not a paradise or anywhere close but it was a functioning balanced society with everything it needed b4 colonization and later slavery.

You're 18, you've read a few wikipedia articles and now act like your brain is overflowing with information.
You're obviously anti-American/European.
You said you were done with this thread, wtf do you keep coming back?

Buddy slavery has been around since the dawn of time. Africans traded slaves between eachother before whites started trading them. ALl it changed was instead of the slaves staying in Africa they were sent to other parts of the world.

[XemnasXD]

African slavery and American slavery are completely different. Same goes for American slavery and the "jewish" slavery. Which was different from Greek and Roman Slavery. The fact that you don't understand this is proof enough that your better off flexing than thinking. I can find faults in all societies from weak african tribalism, to sexist oriental feudalism, to the self-sacrificing self-destructive Aztecs. I'll accept all those faults though nothing is perfect what i don't like is ppl making ill thought out decisions based on limited knowledge when the info is all around you. I wouldn't like the stuff your saying if it had more knowledge to back it up (there are ppl on this forum who could do that)but i'd have to submit to the knowledge if its there. You don't know what your talking about. You pretending like you've got a grasp on a topic that is clearly above your lvl and it just comes of sounding like another one of your BS stories.

BTW challenging ppl to fights online is instant fail for future notice.

[Stallowned]

African slavery and American slavery are completely different. Same goes for American slavery and the "jewish" slavery. Which was different from Greek and Roman Slavery. The fact that you don't understand this is proof enough that your better off flexing than thinking. I can find faults in all societies from weak african tribalism, to sexist oriental feudalism, to the self-sacrificing self-destructive Aztecs. I'll accept all those faults though nothing is perfect what i don't like is ppl making ill thought out decisions based on limited knowledge when the info is all around you. I wouldn't like the stuff your saying if it had more knowledge to back it up (there are ppl on this forum who could do that)but i'd have to submit to the knowledge if its there. You don't know what your talking about. You pretending like you've got a grasp on a topic that is clearly above your lvl and it just comes of sounding like another one of your BS stories.

BTW challenging ppl to fights online is instant fail for future notice.

There you go again with half of your post being vaguely related to the subject and the other half just sh1t talking.

You said you were leaving the thread.

[redneck]

selling pilots info via paypal...for anyone interested...

[XemnasXD]

and now your breaking out the funny GIFs...how can i argue against that ....

really stall i'd break down my response for you but you'd probably respond with an older more played out GIF i'll come back when you start posting BS fail again...

[Pilot]

and now your breaking out the funny GIFs...how can i argue against that ....

really stall i'd break down my response for you but you'd probably respond with an older more played out GIF i'll come back when you start posting BS fail again...

Xem, one thing Ive noticed with your posts is that youve always got this arrogant, elitist attitude. Sorry, but you don't know much as you say you do.

Don't go to your local library and start hitting history books now and give me your little 'history lesson' from your powerhouse of knowledge

[heroo]

Africa and the Mid East are prime examples of humans failing at life.

- first civilization ever to be built up was in the middle-east.

- the wheel was invented in the middle-east

- the first sewor system was built in the middel-east

And not to mention all of the knowledge which the Europenas stole from the Middle-east, and then went claiming that they discovered everything.

The middle-east is the cradle of the whole western civilization.

And you call that failing at life?

No no my friend, you are a failing at life.

[Jstar1]

Africa and the Mid East are prime examples of humans failing at life.

wow your so extreme