God vs Science (God wins o.0)

[/Pi]

we are accountable for our choices as we voluntarily make them, whether influenced or not. The responsible party, whether you like to believe it or not is GOD. he states clearly the he created evil, despite the retarded students answer in the thread starters story. he clearly states he uses this evil. he also tells us our life is an EXPERIENCE of evil that he (they) has/have given us that we may be humbled by it and know that he is GOD. everything about this experience of life is meant to be evil, thats why the very aquiring of knowledge was forbidden in the metaphor of the garden. the tree held knowledge, not just of evil, but good also. why? because you CANT learn one without the other.

An anthropomorphized diety who created both good and evil exists. Assumption taken.

You're reply has various contradictions:

1.) You agree and stated yourself that every effect requires a cause, and such an effect, in turn is the cause of another effect. This is, in short terms, the determinist's position. If I killed a person, there had to be a cause behind this action. Whatever that cause is, it had to make me kill whoever this person is. This automatically removed any responsibility I have on my action because there is an internal/external influence that is beyond my control. Even if I had control of this influence, there has to be a cause as to why I did not take hold of it. Again, we enter regression - back to what the cause is. Eventually, we arrive at a cause that is entirely out of my hands. As stated before, this removes any responsibility in my actions. To extend this further against your first point, I am not accountable for any choice I make.

2.) You stated that we are accountable for our actions, yet later on, you state that it is God who is responsible. Which is which?

Regarding your statements on good and evil. You said that evil is necessary to know good, and because of this, God created evil. Now I ask, to what extent? What benefit is there in having millions of people killed in the hands of a tyrant or in the tempest of nature? Yes, evil is necessary to know good, but not always.

im not going to discuss morality at this point. morality is for you and you only to decided. all things are legal to you, but know that not all are beneficial, and know that somethings will cause more negative than good. sure youre going to say something like, "so i can go and kill people if i want?" and i say, sure you can, but it likely wont benefit anything and will even more likely produce a very negative outcome. if your not mature enough to realize this, i shouldnt be having this discussion with you. you are only as moral as your choices allow. those choices maybe affected by the fear of a religion or a loving parental figure, or whatever your circumstances may be. how quickly would morality fly out the window in the face of death, or harm to a loved one?

Moral relativism is a system I've personally thrown off as it silently leads to nihilism. I haven't reached any conclusions on morality as of yet, and that is why I try to grab the opportunity to bring it up in discussions.

btw, im not going to define free will, im not the one who believes it exists, YOU DO. you define it. show me a choice you have made that wasnt affected by anything. i have defined free and i have defined will free, unrestricted, will, choices ;decision making ability. i will not define your beliefs for you any further.

Juggle free will and morality? I'll go with the latter and drop the former for now. As with morality, I haven't looked into free will yet. I engage in discussions in hopes to reach a definition.

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Vocab correction to a few people in this thread:

Omnipotent: All-powerful
Omniscient: All-knowing
Omnibenevolent: All-loving

[PR0METHEUS]

If you use the bible as truth PR0METHEUS then I would assume that you would also see god as the creator of evil. Most people believe that the devil's influences provoke bad deeds and that lucifer is, of course, evil himself. Who created lucifer? Yup. God.

Lucifer is a fallen angel. He used to be an angel, hence he was created as good. Actually, whether or not Lucifer was created is an entirely different topic. To my knowledge, angels are eternal just like God, but as always, I could be wrong.

With Lucifer being a fallen angel, that implies he was good. That also implies that God allows the angels to make their own decisions and allows them to defy him, attempt to overthrow him, etc. That doesn't mean he created evil.

You believe the bible, or you believe the science which has lots of evidence supporting it.

The way I see it, events in the bible, namely Creation, and science can exist hand in hand. Just because someone believes in Creation doesn't mean they have to discount science entirely.

[ArchYourFace]

Lucifer is a fallen angel. He used to be an angel, hence he was created as good. Actually, whether or not Lucifer was created is an entirely different topic. To my knowledge, angels are eternal just like God, but as always, I could be wrong.

With Lucifer being a fallen angel, that implies he was good. That also implies that God allows the angels to make their own decisions and allows them to defy him, attempt to overthrow him, etc. That doesn't mean he created evil.

satan isnt a fallen angel, he was amurder from the begining. you need to study up a bit and quit relying on poorly translated verses to base an entire system of beliefs. satan was created evil. thats his purpose. the bible says he (God)created evil prom, go read it. God is creator not satan, satan is a destroyer, dont give satan credit for gods work.
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2.) You stated that we are accountable for our actions, yet later on, you state that it is God who is responsible. Which is which?

There is a difference between accountable, and responsible. The sad fact of the matter is thatthat our dictionary tries to use one to define the other, with is total fail on encartas part. You cant define one word with another word, then define the other word with the first word. So ill give you a scenario by which you may understand the difference.

Imagine a warehouse full of goods, i own it. You work for me as the manager of said warehouse. I have made you accountable for the transactions and the maintanance of this warehouse. You are to take an account of everything from shipments to the dust on the floor begin swept to the injuries the occur. You are NOT held responsible for these things. I don’t make you pay for the cleaning crew, you don’t pay the insurance that covers work comp injuries, it isnt your merchandise, it is mine, and the building isnt yours its mine. I am responsible for everything, even YOU. The only thing you are responsible for is actually doing your job. That said, I am still responsible for teaching you how to do it right. If you make the decision to not show up to work, or you decide not to do you job right, there are punishments up to and including being fired. But I still remain totally responsible over everything.

Hopefully this point reaches you well and you see how its not a contradiction, but a simple miscommunication.

Regarding your statements on good and evil. You said that evil is necessary to know good, and because of this, God created evil. Now I ask, to what extent? What benefit is there in having millions of people killed in the hands of a tyrant or in the tempest of nature? Yes, evil is necessary to know good, but not always.

Reconcider what you are saying. Certainly it IS required. To know up you MUST know down. How could you know what light is without darkness. This could go on and on. For you to attempt to determine the extent would be like you telling me that I cant throw away things in my warehouse, or that I cant sell them to a specific retailer, or that I cant use that cleaning crew. Suggestions are concidered, but not aways accepted or enacted. Its my warehouse, and I know the goals that I have for it. Blah blah blah.

I don’t expect you to change your stance. I do appreciate the conversation tho, and I hope I have been fairly clear about my explinations.

[agent420]

wow, a week ban and this thread is still going strong...pretty deep.
this might be a little off topic, but i found this article and thought it might fit! i think it helps science's arguement!

Moses was high on drugs:

Israeli researcher Tue Mar 4, 7:07 AM ET



JERUSALEM (AFP) - High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.

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Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.

Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances.

"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a clasic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."

He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said.

He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible.

[XemnasXD]

why would you see creating evil as bad? You cant understand good without evil.

since god creates all living things, he must have created adolf hitler too. I don't think we need an evil person killing 6 million jews to understand what good is.

The aftermath of WWII opened alot of ppls eyes and ended up creating the state of israel which imo was one of the worst ideas of the 20th century but alot of ppl see it as something good especially alot of Jewish people. Something "good" from something "evil", destruction and creation, life and death. All those things go hand in hand and you cannot have one without the other. Besides good and evil are subject to personal opinions as there were and still are a fair amount of ppl who thought Adolf had the right idea.

Self preservation is the name of the human game. Anything that goes against the self preservation of the community or person is considered evil. The first 10 commandments basically promote the need to stay ordered, alive, and to keep having babies all things necessary for self preservation of the species. Think about most of the things considered to be sinful, homosexuality, adultery, murder, prostitution. All these things bring disorder to most societies. Gays don't procreate, sleeping with someone elses partner breaks down the family, killing is self explanatory, why have sex to make babies if you can get the sex without the baby. Mankinds idea of wrong is anything that goes against the self preservation of society and/or he species which also explains why in the 1700's 34 year olds could marry 12 year olds but nowadays that gets you a visit from the partyvan, the things necessary to stabilize society change with the times.

All that being said i think we can reason there is no real thing as right or wrong or sins or whatever. These are constructs of the human society necessary or keeping it stabilized and would have no meaning to a higher power or really anything thats not human. Hitler was not evil. When you think about it he was very pro-stablized society. His methods were severely flawed however and thats how he failed. If you look at history it would really be easy to see how if he played his cards right, opened negotiations and treaties instead of war he could've very easily been in control of europe because his policies were working, his people were happy, the economy was booming. Picture something along the lines of the EU today only with a benevolent dictator at the helm, not too far fetched.

My point is evil and good don't serve a higher purpose and if you understand these rules and how things work you can exclude yourself from their judgment. However because humans are like sheep and need to constantly be told what to do over and over and are incapable of making higher thoughts on their own the idea of Good and Evil is necessary to keep society going hence why people value God so much and feel everything will fall into ruin without it because TBH if ppl didn't think they were being judged to something greater they'd probably do a whole lot of dumb shit which is sadly why religion will always be at the forefront of mankind and why we'll always be bogged down under its backward ideals and corruption, because ppl need it.

[Nuklear]

Still Alive...still alive.

[iGod]

why would you see creating evil as bad? You cant understand good without evil.

since god creates all living things, he must have created adolf hitler too. I don't think we need an evil person killing 6 million jews to understand what good is.

But Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic super power..

[ArchYourFace]

Good ol' iGod always lookin to stir some shizzz

[Pilot]