God vs Science (God wins o.0)

[Xyzzzy]

If you say he has no free will, who's to say that you do?

[Judge]

I see you guys have swerved from Science in regards to God(s) to Philosophy in Regards to God(s). Philosophy is much easier since everyone understands it(at least i hope everyone does ). Have fun, i never liked philosophy; it makes matters to easy, and the discussions tend to drag on forever (as do discussions with Theist).

[Reise]

Ahhh now were getting somewhere. The concept of "free will." Do you truly believe you will is free? Do you even understand the phrase "free will." you my friend don’t have free will.

and before you respond to tell me you do, i suggest you find out the meaning of the words free and will.

lol Are you saying that because there's consequences for using free will?

Nothing is physically stopping me from committing crimes for instance, I could still do whatever I want. The only thing stopping my free will is the consequences that come later.

[Judge]

Ahhh now were getting somewhere. The concept of "free will." Do you truly believe you will is free? Do you even understand the phrase "free will." you my friend don’t have free will.

and before you respond to tell me you do, i suggest you find out the meaning of the words free and will.

lol Are you saying that because there's consequences for using free will?

Nothing is physically stopping me from committing crimes for instance, I could still do whatever I want. The only thing stopping my free will is the consequences that come later.

I will respond before battling that troublesome server traffic:

Philosophy in regards to God: In this context he is replying to Prometheus, who stated God (Abraham's God*) is omnipotent, which in the context of Judeo-Christian-Islamic "paths", is true. Along with being omnipotent, God*, is considered to be all knowing. Based on this arch has proposed an answer to prometheus' question (do we have free will). His [arch's] answer being "no we don't have free will".

Because of the we, xyzzzy's question is irrelevant (arch did not use a "we" I super-imposed my own reason into his response, E.G., i dumbed it down ). A proper response (in my eyes: proper is relative, as are many things in life) to arch's post would be: And if this omnipotent, all-knowing, God weren't to exist would we still have free will?

[PR0METHEUS]

I will respond before battling that troublesome server traffic:

Philosophy in regards to God: In this context he is replying to Prometheus, who stated God (Abraham's God*) is omnipotent, which in the context of Judeo-Christian-Islamic "paths", is true. Along with being omnipotent, God*, is considered to be all knowing. Based on this arch has proposed an answer to prometheus' question (do we have free will). His [arch's] answer being "no we don't have free will".

Because of the we, xyzzzy's question is irrelevant (arch did not use a "we" I super-imposed my own reason into his response, E.G., i dumbed it down ). A proper response (in my eyes: proper is relative, as are many things in life) to arch's post would be: And if this omnipotent, all-knowing, God weren't to exist would we still have free will?

Thank you for that explanation. When I asked "do we have free will?" it was a rhetorical question because, as you said, if we assume God exists, and is all-knowing, then we can't have free will. We just can't. It may appear that we can make our own choices, but (with the assumption that God exists, and is all-knowing) we will always make the exact choice that God knows we will make.

If God does not exist, one could still say that we have no free will. Just the simple fact of the non-existance of an all-knowing diety doesn't necessarily mean that our decisions are not already laid out.

If we really did have free will, then I think that would imply that time travel into the future is impossible (I know we don't actually have time travel currently). I say it's impossible (if we have free will) because the future would not be defined. How can there be a defined future if I haven't made my free will decisions yet?

If there is no free will, then all decisions are already defined, and known by the all-knowing God, and then time travel to the future would be possible. Although, if that were the case, then it would already be known that someone will travel to the future.

[ArchYourFace]

I will respond before battling that troublesome server traffic:

Philosophy in regards to God: In this context he is replying to Prometheus, who stated God (Abraham's God*) is omnipotent, which in the context of Judeo-Christian-Islamic "paths", is true. Along with being omnipotent, God*, is considered to be all knowing. Based on this arch has proposed an answer to prometheus' question (do we have free will). His [arch's] answer being "no we don't have free will".

Because of the we, xyzzzy's question is irrelevant (arch did not use a "we" I super-imposed my own reason into his response, E.G., i dumbed it down ). A proper response (in my eyes: proper is relative, as are many things in life) to arch's post would be: And if this omnipotent, all-knowing, God weren't to exist would we still have free will?

Thank you for that explanation. When I asked "do we have free will?" it was a rhetorical question because, as you said, if we assume God exists, and is all-knowing, then we can't have free will. We just can't. It may appear that we can make our own choices, but (with the assumption that God exists, and is all-knowing) we will always make the exact choice that God knows we will make.

If God does not exist, one could still say that we have no free will. Just the simple fact of the non-existance of an all-knowing diety doesn't necessarily mean that our decisions are not already laid out.

If we really did have free will, then I think that would imply that time travel into the future is impossible (I know we don't actually have time travel currently). I say it's impossible (if we have free will) because the future would not be defined. How can there be a defined future if I haven't made my free will decisions yet?

If there is no free will, then all decisions are already defined, and known by the all-knowing God, and then time travel to the future would be possible. Although, if that were the case, then it would already be known that someone will travel to the future.

"Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.

That man has a will, there is no debate. It is the teaching that man himself determines his own will, FREELY, without anything causing his will or his choices to be what they are. The idea of free will or free moral agency is that man can by himself unaided by anything else, originate his own choices of his will."


Free - as defined by encarta dictionary north america.

definition3.) not restricted in rights, (not subject to censorship or control by a ruler, government, or other authority, and enjoying civil liberties) - this can expand to anyone not just national government.

definition 9.) NOT AFFECTED BY PARTICULAR THING (not subject to or affected by a particular thing, especially something undesirable)



will - defined the same definition1.) part of mind that makes decisions definition 2.) power to decide 3.)process of making decisions 4 determination.

SO free will is the concept that you make decisions with no other force restricting or affecting them. Sit down and think long and hard. About the decisions you make. Are they simply because you made them or was there an influence?


honestly, its merely a matter of cause and affect, no affect can exist without a cause. and in accordance to my philisophical beliefs, "God" is the initial cause and ultimate effect of all things. (plz dont flame my beliefs.)

*just a little bit of detail to follow up on my post*

[FireVortex]

wow i usually dont post in threads like these but

while i was reading the newspaper there was an interesting 6 part article about a scientist trying 2 see if god exists.I may not have read the first 2 articles but the 3rd one seemed pretty interesting as this so called scientist belives there is indeed a god but ill post it later when i find it lol

[nohunta]

Wow......Just Wow. God ftw.

[/Pi]

Determinism. Free Will. Compatibilism. Theological Fatalism. Damn. You guys getting deeper.

I'll watch from the sidelines for now.

[Shynygamie]

LMFAO!

[/Pi]

"Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.

That man has a will, there is no debate. It is the teaching that man himself determines his own will, FREELY, without anything causing his will or his choices to be what they are. The idea offree will or free moral agency is that man can by himself unaided by anything else, originate his own choices of his will."

This definition of free will needs more elaboration because it cannot exist. It is entirely dependent on the requirement that choices or activities must be "free from internal or external causes." Define "causes"? What causes are included in this parameter? Why these causes? Why not the other causes? Every being is constrained by his or her environment because we are all linked by webs of interactions and influences.

I choose to go visit Spain by land but I can't because an external cause - the Atlantic Ocean - is preventing me from doing so. Does that deprive me of my free will? There are numerous things I would love to do but I am limited by the physical environment. I am forced to not pursue these desires because of these limitations. Do I still have free will?

Free - as defined by encarta dictionary north america.

definition3.) not restricted in rights, (not subject to censorship or control by a ruler, government, or other authority, and enjoying civil liberties) - this can expand to anyone not just national government.

definition 9.) NOT AFFECTED BY PARTICULAR THING (not subject to or affected by a particular thing, especially something undesirable)

will - defined the same definition1.) part of mind that makes decisions definition 2.) power to decide 3.)process of making decisions 4 determination.

SO free will is the concept that you make decisions with no other force restricting or affecting them. Sit down and think long and hard. About the decisions you make. Are they simply because you made them or was there an influence?

Try to avoid breaking down compound words and use the root words to define the whole. The definition you took for free will might seem right but there's hardly anyone or anything not affected by a "PARTICULAR THING."

The assumption that God is omniscient undermines not just our free will but our existence. This supreme being knows beforehand the fate of our lives, and if there is an afterlife, where we will end up in. Take this example:

God is omniscient and infallible.
God knows that Person X will go to hell after he/she dies.
Person X must go to hell no matter what.

What is the point of giving life to this person if God knew, even before the person was born, that he/she will end up in hell? What game is this being playing?

honestly, its merely a matter of cause and affect, no affect can exist without a cause. and in accordance to my philisophical beliefs, "God" is the initial cause and ultimate effect of all things. (plz dont flame my beliefs.)

*just a little bit of detail to follow up on my post*

Why "God"?

[ArchYourFace]

who said anything about hell proph? there is no such thing as hell. thats rediculous.



EDIT:

I choose to go visit Spain by land but I can't because an external cause - the Atlantic Ocean - is preventing me from doing so. Does that deprive me of my free will? There are numerous things I would love to do but I am limited by the physical environment. I am forced to not pursue these desires because of these limitations. Do I still have free will?

no you dont have free will. you have a will, thats certain. you have the ability to decide what you want to do or not do. but i guarantee every decision you make is governed by some outside force. why would the laws of cause and affect apply to everything except your will? every effect requires a cause. the effect of those causes can in turn, be the cause of a different effect. wouldnt you say that all effects need a cause?? anyone answer this. thats the whole basis of science i thought.
there HAS to be a cause to each affect.
it applys to your decisions no differently. you have a will but it certainly isnt free.

[Reise]

So for instance if I just randomly wanted to stand on one foot all day it would be an outside force telling me to do so, and not my own free will. Mmmmkay.

[_Angels]

lol this topic is kinda endless first they ask where are we humans from, half say.. god made us and half will say we came from monkies lol then the others probaly ask where the monkies are from.. endless D:

imo its to complicated =p my brains alrddy hurts by the tho of where monkies came from..

[Nuklear]

>_>
We have common traits with monkeys, we did not descend from them.

[ghostkilla43]

>_>
We have common traits with monkeys, we did not descend from them.

+1

i dont see us evolving for a money

[/Pi]

who said anything about hell proph? there is no such thing as hell. thats rediculous.

Do I have to wait for someone to bring up the after life to talk about it? I'm bringing up hell in this thread. I don't care if you don't want to talk about it. -.-"

EDIT:
no you dont have free will. you have a will, thats certain. you have the ability to decide what you want to do or not do. but i guarantee every decision you make is governed by some outside force. why would the laws of cause and affect apply to everything except your will? every effect requires a cause. the effect of those causes can in turn, be the cause of a different effect. wouldnt you say that all effects need a cause?? anyone answer this. thats the whole basis of science i thought.
there HAS to be a cause to each affect.
it applys to your decisions no differently. you have a will but it certainly isnt free.

It seems that you're not going to expand on the definition of free will. I agree in most of your points in that post. I just needs more explanation into it.

Anyway, your determinist standpoint is actually a great opportunity to let loose the chaotic discussion that is...

*DRUM ROLL*

Morality.

It seems that you adhere to the strict codes of cause-and-effect; that every action is the cause of another and so on. Who then is accountable for his/her actions? Without free will, how can morality be justified in this case?

[ArchYourFace]

we are accountable for our choices as we voluntarily make them, whether influenced or not. The responsible party, whether you like to believe it or not is GOD. he states clearly the he created evil, despite the retarded students answer in the thread starters story. he clearly states he uses this evil. he also tells us our life is an EXPERIENCE of evil that he (they) has/have given us that we may be humbled by it and know that he is GOD. everything about this experience of life is meant to be evil, thats why the very aquiring of knowledge was forbidden in the metaphor of the garden. the tree held knowledge, not just of evil, but good also. why? because you CANT learn one without the other.

im not going to discuss morality at this point. morality is for you and you only to decided. all things are legal to you, but know that not all are beneficial, and know that somethings will cause more negative than good. sure youre going to say something like, "so i can go and kill people if i want?" and i say, sure you can, but it likely wont benefit anything and will even more likely produce a very negative outcome. if your not mature enough to realize this, i shouldnt be having this discussion with you. you are only as moral as your choices allow. those choices maybe affected by the fear of a religion or a loving parental figure, or whatever your circumstances may be. how quickly would morality fly out the window in the face of death, or harm to a loved one?

btw, im not going to define free will, im not the one who believes it exists, YOU DO. you define it. show me a choice you have made that wasnt affected by anything. i have defined free and i have defined will free, unrestricted, will, choices ;decision making ability. i will not define your beliefs for you any further.

[_Angels]

>_>
We have common traits with monkeys, we did not descend from them.

lol i saw it on discovery channel xD

[Nuklear]

The responsible party, whether you like to believe it or not is GOD.

I'm sorry, did we skip the part where god needs to be proved to exist before someone makes such claims?

he states clearly the he created evil...

Another reason I don't understand why people want to believe this fairytale. Why worship someone who created evil? Fuck that and fuck that entity.

[ArchYourFace]

why would you see creating evil as bad? You cant understand good without evil.

[Nuklear]

So understanding is your excuse for necessary evil? Give me a break. I'd trade understanding for evil any day.

[Jstar1]

why would you see creating evil as bad? You cant understand good without evil.

since god creates all living things, he must have created adolf hitler too. I don't think we need an evil person killing 6 million jews to understand what good is.

[ArchYourFace]

Don’t forget all the other evil men that have existed such as, mussolini, stalin, the catholic church, nero, vlad the impaler, George w bush, Rev. Jim Jones, Saddam Hussiein, June Son, Andri Chickitilo , Jeffrey Dahmer, The Decepticons, and John Wayne Gacy. Despite what you think they all have their place in the history and future of mankind. They have forever left a mark on our existance. Like the scars of our childhood. Some, of course, bigger and deeper than others. Yet add to the charicteristic development of humanity as a whole. If they hadnt, certainly hitler wouldn’t have been thrown into this conversation so fast. He is likely one of the single greatest evils of the age of humanity.

Remember, he will be accountable for his choices, and God has accepted responsibility for his actions.

(sorry to offend those who don’t believe in god, I know how imaginary beings tend to be so offensive.)

[PR0METHEUS]

we are accountable for our choices as we voluntarily make them, whether influenced or not. The responsible party, whether you like to believe it or not is GOD.

I'm sorry, did we skip the part where god needs to be proved to exist before someone makes such claims?

he states clearly the he created evil...

Another reason I don't understand why people want to believe this fairytale. Why worship someone who created evil? Fuck that and fuck that entity.

Yeah I wasn't sure what to think about those points myself. At this point, no one can prove that God exists. One can only believe in his existance. Without proof, you can't claim that God is responsible for anything if he's not proven to exist.

Also, if we are accountable for our choices, and voluntarily make them, then how is God responsible for those choices? If God is responsible, how can we be held accountable? If God is responsible (implies he caused us to make the choices) then how did we voluntarily make them?

I'm not sure of God creating evil, as opposed to simply letting evil occur. I've always been taught, and believe, that he created us, and allows us to make our own decisions - good and bad ones - in life. In turn, that allows evil to exist, but not necessarily created by God. But then as I've said before, if God is omnipotent (all knowing) then how can we possibly make our own voluntary choices? It just doesn't add up.

I guess that's partly why I don't follow any specific denomination, but instead believe in some core beliefs and whatever else I choose to believe.

[Judge]

we are accountable for our choices as we voluntarily make them, whether influenced or not. The responsible party, whether you like to believe it or not is GOD.

I'm sorry, did we skip the part where god needs to be proved to exist before someone makes such claims?

he states clearly the he created evil...

Another reason I don't understand why people want to believe this fairytale. Why worship someone who created evil? Fuck that and fuck that entity.

Yeah I wasn't sure what to think about those points myself. At this point, no one can prove that God exists. One can only believe in his existance. Without proof, you can't claim that God is responsible for anything if he's not proven to exist.

Also, if we are accountable for our choices, and voluntarily make them, then how is God responsible for those choices? If God is responsible, how can we be held accountable? If God is responsible (implies he caused us to make the choices) then how did we voluntarily make them?

I'm not sure of God creating evil, as opposed to simply letting evil occur. I've always been taught, and believe, that he created us, and allows us to make our own decisions - good and bad ones - in life. In turn, that allows evil to exist, but not necessarily created by God. But then as I've said before, if God is omnipotent (all knowing) then how can we possibly make our own voluntary choices? It just doesn't add up.

I guess that's partly why I don't follow any specific denomination, but instead believe in some core beliefs and whatever else I choose to believe.

Core Moral beliefs and an Open mind is good for you, not like Dogma; Dogmatic Beliefs are final and infallible, therefore they never change: Stagnation.

Look what Dogma has done to Islam, one of the only monotheistic religions that was open to other people, their beliefs, and held science in the most high esteem. Dogmatic rule has creat Islam-ism (The sect of Islamic Extremist), Islamic Nationalism, A deep rooted hatred of jews, and a Loathe of the West. Islam and the West used to share, students would leave the west and study in egypt as is vice-versa, now in so many Islamic states if you want free-thought you need to leave your homeland.

By accepting Dogma you trap yourself and prevent yourself as well as those around you from change, This leads to a spiral downwards towards ignorance (as you can see in many Islamic states and Fundamentally Christian Environments). And if you reject the newly founded (or in the case of Catholicism: the set in "stone" dogma) dogma, then your out and there is no going back.

Its sad to see good Ideologies get ruined by Stupid Nationalist/Fundamentalist who want to go back to the Stone Age.

Oh well, Life goes on. At least the western counterparts of Islamic Extremist haven't taken control of the State. (That doesn't stop them from attempting to impose their "reforms" on the vast majority that disagree and adhere to reason.)

[Nuklear]

If you use the bible as truth PR0METHEUS then I would assume that you would also see god as the creator of evil. Most people believe that the devil's influences provoke bad deeds and that lucifer is, of course, evil himself. Who created lucifer? Yup. God.

[rek]

You believe the bible, or you believe the science which has lots of evidence supporting it.

[San]

omg, this is still alive?

[rek]

I juz saw it so i posted