Faith - False or?

[HyorunmarouZ]

Dang, god has struck us again(that is if you believe in him, but like said in http://www.silkroadforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=67354 , science isn't clearer than faith.


After watching many comedy shows, presentations from professors and even thought about god for myself(for a whole 10 minutes ),I've decided to call money my god:
1. I can touch, smell, feel, see, *taste* it
2. It secures me many necessities
3. I have to work for it

dollar dollar bill ya'll

Best "believer" argument so far

[Stress]

I have a point to bring across. I might be narrow minded, but is there any solid, empirical proof that there cannot be such thing as a supernatural being/presence? Can someone prove beyond a shadow of doubt that there is nothing beyond our physical world? Until that comes across, I stick with my belief.

And another thing... how many billions of dollars are spent every year into research on Evolution , the Big Bang and things alike? What if that whole money would be invested into finding proof for the existence of God. If scientists can go as far as reconstructing an entire "humanoid" skull out of a skull bone and a tooth, then certainly investing these resources into proving God's work on earth would surface solid evidence.

That is my view... it most certainly differs from yours, but refrain on any violent comments upon myself. Limit yourself to criticizing the ideas exposed above.

[XemnasXD]

God decides what is Sin and what is not. Therefore God created the idea of Sin.

Destroy God and you will Destroy sin because without God there would be no one to judge what is Sinful.

lol@ religion being the basis of morality. More ppl have died or been killed, raped, burned, or otherwise annihilated in the name of "God" than in the name of anyone else.

got (several) links for that? I think Hitler's 6 million might be higher...

just off the top of my head All the Crusadesthere were about 8-9 probably more

[Judge]

Oh and to the person who says "man associates laws with the supernatural to curb indecent behavior", first you must define indecent, right...? If there were no rules, what happens? A supernatural being isn't required to define morality. That said- there are God's laws, and there are man's laws.

Not too bad of a discussion, but I could do without the flames.

Indecent would be whatever society at that time considers unethical, quite an easy question to answer.

@STRESS, look into string theory; you may find the possibility of 11 dimension ,one of which may house this 'power' man is so obsessed with, appealing.

As i said to Angel, i respect you for your steadfast faith.

got (several) links for that? I think Hitler's 6 million might be higher...

Hitler is about 2-4 million short of what the crusaders managed to pull off; knowledge of history is self-empowerment.

[HyorunmarouZ]

I have a point to bring across. I might be narrow minded, but is there any solid, empirical proof that there cannot be such thing as a supernatural being/presence? Can someone prove beyond a shadow of doubt that there is nothing beyond our physical world? Until that comes across, I stick with my belief.

And another thing... how many billions of dollars are spent every year into research on Evolution , the Big Bang and things alike? What if that whole money would be invested into finding proof for the existence of God. If scientists can go as far as reconstructing an entire "humanoid" skull out of a skull bone and a tooth, then certainly investing these resources into proving God's work on earth would surface solid evidence.

That is my view... it most certainly differs from yours, but refrain on any violent comments upon myself. Limit yourself to criticizing the ideas exposed above.

Well, we are limited by our physic being, and so does our technology. If god is not a physical thing, then we would have a hard time finding a way to even start measuring something we have almost no contact with.

On the other side, science works with the things we already know to solve problems that are a threat to our safety (or that's supposed to be it's goal, but unfortunately, science destroys many things too), and if something we don't know is affecting our lives and we wish to know it, we start from what we have and might be related to that uknown thing. The problem with supernatural stuff like god is that there's nothing to work with as a base and start researching (something tangible), therefore, it can't be mixed up with religion.

At least, that's my opinion

[XemnasXD]

God is based on faith. Trying to prove his existence Defies faith. Therefore no real believer would ever need to find proof of gods existence because it would mean a lack of faith. Most christians just point to everything in existence to anyone who wants proof of God. Billions of dollars are spent to prove, define, and study the theory of evolution because its science and you can't take science as a given it has to be studied and proven.

[Judge]

God is based on faith. Trying to prove his existence Defies faith. Therefore no real believer would ever need to find proof of gods existence because it would mean a lack of faith. Most christians just point to everything in existence to anyone who wants proof of God. Billions of dollars are spent to prove, define, and study the theory of evolution because its science and you can't take science as a given it has to be studied and proven.

+1 Xemnas

by proving 'its' existence doesn't the author strip 'it' of "it's" ambiguity and the 'faith' concept

[John_Doe]

Well very long and interesting read, hmmm....I don't mind god, god doesn't get in my way I stay outta his, god wants something he just has to ask. Science helps us understand why things have come to past, why things are and what will come, nothing more most of the time there just theories. Thats why I like science there is no right or wrong, it depends on each person. What science can't explain I say there must be something else behind it ether natural or super or paranormal I or nether anyone else can prove it unprove it so leave it at that. If I am treated unfairly by what I believe by a group of people, that is were "The right to bear arms" comes into play. I'd classified myself as a transendetalism person.

[redneck]

Well very long and interesting read, hmmm....I don't mind god, god doesn't get in my way I stay outta his, god wants something he just has to ask. Science helps us understand why things have come to past, why things are and what will come, nothing more most of the time there just theories. Thats why I like science there is no right or wrong, it depends on each person. What science can't explain I say there must be something else behind it ether natural or super or paranormal I or nether anyone else can prove it unprove it so leave it at that. If I am treated unfairly by what I believe by a group of people, that is were "The right to bear arms" comes into play. I'd classified myself as a transendetalism person.

Hippie!!

[Morgoth]

Hitler is about 2-4 million short of what the crusaders managed to pull off; knowledge of history is self-empowerment.

yes knowledge of history is indeed self empowerment, so did you forget these deaths?

i believe the crusades are short several million

[redneck]

Your all forgetting about the black plague which killed way more than both WWII..

The one during the 1900s and of course the medieval one

[Judge]

Hitler is about 2-4 million short of what the crusaders managed to pull off; knowledge of history is self-empowerment.

yes knowledge of history is indeed self empowerment, so did you forget these deaths?
[An image irrelevant to the discussion at hand was placed here. The image accounted towards all deaths caused during world war two, the image included allied and axis deaths.]i believe the crusades are short several million

Hitler, Holocaust Victims; not counting all casualties. Your image counts all casualties. Crusades far outweigh Hitler's bigoted cry for "justice". Brackets read underlined. Your belief should be substituted with what you know.

At the moment i am stunned and dumb-founded at the level of reading comprehension in this thread, and stop arguing nonsensical points not relevant to the discussion.

@Redneck, elo der kind sir.
@Morgoth look at the new edit and what i bolded + underlined, i will not deny it; Hitler 'had a hand' in those deaths, but those weren't the deaths Xemnas and myself were pointing at.

[Morgoth]

so hitler didn't have absolutely anything at all to do with those deaths?

[HyorunmarouZ]

Hitler is about 2-4 million short of what the crusaders managed to pull off; knowledge of history is self-empowerment.

yes knowledge of history is indeed self empowerment, so did you forget these deaths?
[An image irrelevant to the discussion at hand was placed here. The image accounted towards all deaths caused during world war two, the image included allied and axis deaths.]i believe the crusades are short several million

Hitler, Holocaust Victims; not counting all casualties. Your image counts all casualties. Crusades far outweigh Hitler's bigoted cry for "justice". Brackets read underlined. Your belief should be substituted with what you know.

At the moment i am stunned and dumb-founded at the level of reading comprehension in this thread, and stop arguing nonsensical points not relevant to the discussion.

@Redneck, elo der kind sir.

I doubt it's only about reading comprehension. When we want to "win" over a discussion we sometimes overlook the details. The "pwnage" is the main goal over the internet, isn't it? At least of most of it's users.

P.S. I'm not trying to convince anyone about the way i see life and live it. I'm just sharing an opinion

[Reise]

so hitler didn't have absolutely anything at all to do with those deaths?

Hitler wasn't the only member of the Axis.

[Morgoth]

@Morgoth look at the new edit and what i bolded + underlined, i will not deny it; Hitler 'had a hand' in those deaths, but those weren't the deaths Xemnas and myself were pointing at.

oops, missed that, all i focused on was the name Hitler; apologies

[Stress]

I have a point to bring across. I might be narrow minded, but is there any solid, empirical proof that there cannot be such thing as a supernatural being/presence? Can someone prove beyond a shadow of doubt that there is nothing beyond our physical world? Until that comes across, I stick with my belief.

And another thing... how many billions of dollars are spent every year into research on Evolution , the Big Bang and things alike? What if that whole money would be invested into finding proof for the existence of God. If scientists can go as far as reconstructing an entire "humanoid" skull out of a skull bone and a tooth, then certainly investing these resources into proving God's work on earth would surface solid evidence.

That is my view... it most certainly differs from yours, but refrain on any violent comments upon myself. Limit yourself to criticizing the ideas exposed above.

Well, we are limited by our physic being, and so does our technology. If god is not a physical thing, then we would have a hard time finding a way to even start measuring something we have almost no contact with.

On the other side, science works with the things we already know to solve problems that are a threat to our safety (or that's supposed to be it's goal, but unfortunately, science destroys many things too), and if something we don't know is affecting our lives and we wish to know it, we start from what we have and might be related to that uknown thing. The problem with supernatural stuff like god is that there's nothing to work with as a base and start researching (something tangible), therefore, it can't be mixed up with religion.

At least, that's my opinion

Some people measure through feeling and sensation, rather than instruments. Sometimes, these things are more powerful than a bunch of numbers.

[ArchYourFace]

Epic Christian Reasoning-

When someone dies or something bad happens.
"God has a plan for everyone."

When someone is born retarded or disabled.
"God made everyone for a purpose."

...And my favorite

When confronted with immoral acts.
"God forgives us of all our sins."

Gotta love 'em.

All because they have faith.

this is a matter of relativity. how can you know up without down, in without out and, how can you know good without an experience of evil? after all life is an experience of evil.
from a strictly faith perspective, these things exist as teaching tools and nothing more. many, that follow the bible, dont believe that the God of that bible created evil. but he did, and he even uses that evil. this isnt an attempt to debate science vs god, this is to try to rectify the poor views of god that religion has given. as i said in another topic, theres no reason that there cant be a being(s) that exists with a higher scientific knowledge than that which we have. maybbe one day well see that the Gods are the ultimate scientists running the ultimate experiment. o.O just a thought.

[redneck]

Being an atheist is just a fad...Just wait you guys pretty soon everyone will want be catholic or Christian because everyone else is doing it...

[ArchYourFace]

Being an atheist is just a fad...Just wait you guys pretty soon everyone will want be catholic or Christian because everyone else is doing it...

i think islam is currently moving in that direction tbh. chistianity is dying. the falsehood and counterdictions are becoming more and more evident. + the preist touching boys doesnt help.

[Judge]

Epic Christian Reasoning-

When someone dies or something bad happens.
"God has a plan for everyone."

When someone is born retarded or disabled.
"God made everyone for a purpose."

...And my favorite

When confronted with immoral acts.
"God forgives us of all our sins."

Gotta love 'em.

All because they have faith.

this is a matter of relativity. how can you know up without down, in without out and, how can you know good without an experience of evil? after all life is an experience of evil.
from a strictly faith perspective, these things exist as teaching tools and nothing more. many, that follow the bible, dont believe that the God of that bible created evil. but he did, and he even uses that evil. this isnt an attempt to debate science vs god, this is to try to rectify the poor views of god that religion has given. as i said in another topic, theres no reason that there cant be a being(s) that exists with a higher scientific knowledge than that which we have. maybbe one day well see that the Gods are the ultimate scientists running the ultimate experiment. o.O just a thought.

You should join scientology, I think you would fit in well with them. Their "higher being" is an alien named Xenu

On a more serious note, don't try to sugar coat what you're typing. Science has no reason to look for a "higher being", there are countless cults and conspiracy theories [not scientific] devoted towards finding said "Higher being". But since you're so hell bent on believing in your Creature that created humans, please tell me not Science, and not anybody else, but tell me: "what makes Humans so special that another species [the "higher being/s"] would want to create us". We are just another animal, a gifted animal, but nonetheless and animal; we are no more special than the amoebas which surround us, we are no more special than the clouds which encase us. An insignificant creature, a creature so blinded by this imaginary "force" that we attempt to find it at all cost, and when others say; "it is not a concern" you chalk it up to not thinking outside the box.

"I hold man in low regard, for like the creatures that walk this 'earth' we are a beast among savages, a pitiful creature, so desperate for truth and understanding; man is a pathetic excuse for mammalia."

To think people as intelligent as yourself cannot see this, is unthinkable.

~I bid you adieu.

PS: my reading comprehension says you're agnostic.

EDIT:

Science is turning into a closet religion. Its as biased and narrow minded as any other religion.

Science is far from a religion, i don't want to quote myself again but here I go:

you don't understand how science works; blah blah etc.

I refuse to allow the findings of the scientists of this world define not only this world but anything that may be beyond.

Your beliefs are your beliefs, but I'm not sure they will actually stop scientist from researching anything they can "get their hands on".

What kind of scientific evidence do you have to prove that not only we are the only intelligent life in existance, but we happned by chance?

Chaos Theory, primordial soup. I'm not going to link them; google is there. The chances of us being the only "intelligent" [destructive] creature in existence is so low.

Im not expecting you to rely on religion to explain the unknown.

[asterisks mean scientific theory]

Science: Observation ~> Hypothesis ~> Testing ~> Conclusion ~> *Theory* ~> Debates on how the *Theory* can be improved this entire process is: Empiricism.

Religion: Faith...

In short: I agree with everything you said [except "higher being"], since it was the same gist as my post. I would google agnosticism, but it would only drag this dead and bloody corpse of a debate on

"Seek and thou shall find", said the Lord.

^ I think we have a winner, my argument ends as well. I tip my hat to you Stress.

[HyorunmarouZ]

Some people measure through feeling and sensation, rather than instruments. Sometimes, these things are more powerful than a bunch of numbers.

But i doubt it could be as precise as doing it with an special instrument of sorts. And isn't science's goal to discover "truth" with as much accuracy/precision as possible?

And not only that, i doubt if something like god exists, that people could experiment on it.

But... that's just a thought.

On a more serious note, don't try to sugar coat what you're typing. Science has no reason to look for a "higher being", there are countless cults and conspiracy theories [not scientific] devoted towards finding said "Higher being". But since you're so hell bent on believing in your Creature that created humans, please tell me not Science, and not anybody else, but tell me: "what makes Humans so special that another species [the "higher being/s"] would want to create us". We are just another animal, a gifted animal, but nonetheless and animal; we are no more special than the amoebas which surround us, we are no more special than the clouds which encase us. An insignificant creature, a creature so blinded by this imaginary "force" that we attempt to find it at all cost, and when others say; "it is not a concern" you chalk it up to not thinking outside the box.

"I hold man in low regard, for like the creatures that walk this 'earth' we are a beast among savages, a pitiful creature, so desperate for truth and understanding; man is a pathetic excuse for mammalia."

I agree with you, i was just saying that, even if science would want to, it wouldn't be able to.

[ArchYourFace]

You should join scientology, I think you would fit in well with them. Their "higher being" is an alien named Xenu

no, i cant afford it.

On a more serious note, don't try to sugar coat what you're typing. Science has no reason to look for a "higher being", there are countless cults and conspiracy theories [not scientific] devoted towards finding said "Higher being". But since you're so hell bent on believing in your Creature that created humans, please tell me not Science, and not anybody else, but tell me: "what makes Humans so special that another species [the "higher being/s"] would want to create us". We are just another animal, a gifted animal, but nonetheless and animal; we are no more special than the amoebas which surround us, we are no more special than the clouds which encase us. An insignificant creature, a creature so blinded by this imaginary "force" that we attempt to find it at all cost, and when others say; "it is not a concern" you chalk it up to not thinking outside the box.

I never said man was special. Man is infact a terrible beast. Read scripture, the aledged god that created us entirely agrees. Science is turning into a closet religion. Its as biased and narrow minded as any other religion. We only know about the thing we have. We know nothing about the things we don’t. I refuse to allow the findings of the scientists of this world define not only this world but anything that may be beyond. What kind of scientific evidence do you have to prove that not only we are the only intelligent life in existance, but we happned by chance? Any? Im not expecting you to rely on religion to explain the unknown. Religion = superstision, and a mind control device, used to keep the masses in fear.

"I hold man in low regard, for like the creatures that walk this 'earth' we are a beast among savages, a pitiful creature, so desperate for truth and understanding; man is a pathetic excuse for mammalia."

indeed.

To think people as intelligent as yourself cannot see this, is unthinkable.

don’t call me names.

~I bid you adieu.

PS: my reading comprehension says you're agnostic.

since you appear to want to know, no. I fully believe in a creator who is to me a father, I also believe in the messiah. I also believe the bible. That said, I have a strong hate towards religion. I don’t equate creator(s) to religion. I also don’t believe in an eternal torment/some ethral being floating out of my body into the sky at my death/and a great number of other misconceptions the church sells. I used to be quite religious. Trust me, I feel horrible for it.

[Stress]

It's a matter of experience. To me, no measurements, no numbers... just nothing could shake what sparked in me when a certain event happened. To me, hundreds of scientists with immense quantities of "empirical" proof can not override personal feeling and experience. It's not about some hypothesis on things, it's not about theoretical understanding and reasoning... it's about emotional (and physical), practical and empiric experience. Of course it's not the same for you, or any other. It is relative. If it is to happen... it won't happen the same with you or anybody else. Experiences, through their means of coming into being and distinct features, are, as said, different for every single person.

"Seek and thou shall find", said the Lord.

My argument in this thread ends here.

[HyorunmarouZ]

It's a matter of experience. To me, no measurements, no numbers... just nothing could shake what sparked in me when a certain event happened. To me, hundreds of scientists with immense quantities of "empirical" proof can not override personal feeling and experience. It's not about some hypothesis on things, it's not about theoretical understanding and reasoning... it's about emotional (and physical), practical and empiric experience. Of course it's not the same for you, or any other. It is relative. If it is to happen... it won't happen the same with you or anybody else. Experiences, through their means of coming into being and distinct features, are, as said, different for every single person.

"Seek and thou shall find", said the Lord.

My argument in this thread ends here.

I know what you mean

Just, as Judge said, science can't work with such feelings, it's not it's field. That's why, as i see it, this wasn't possible

And another thing... how many billions of dollars are spent every year into research on Evolution , the Big Bang and things alike? What if that whole money would be invested into finding proof for the existence of God. If scientists can go as far as reconstructing an entire "humanoid" skull out of a skull bone and a tooth, then certainly investing these resources into proving God's work on earth would surface solid evidence.

It's nice to have an intechange of ideas without fighting or hidden attacks, thank you for the chat Stress

[Stress]

It's always a pleasure to share thoughts and opinions, given the right environment. Thank you all for providing it.

[ArchYourFace]

Agnositicism:
Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of the existence of God or gods; or, alternatively, that while individual certainty may be possible, they personally have no knowledge.

no im not agnostic. you arent going to label me. i am who i am. i am living my life I am experiencing life, I am learning from life. That is the closest thing to my religion.

explaining what scientifically causes me to believe in a creator is like you trying to scientifically explain what your favorite color is and why. this may be a silly but really, what is your favorite color, and what makes it that.

or i could always rely on the "a bee shouldnt be able to fly yet can, how does science explain this?" approach, but whatever.



ps maybe youre thinking of gnosicim or something.

[Vindicator]

Religion is the basis of morality in this world.
That is one of the main purposes of the Bible.

Sorry, i had to lol....the basis of morality is the number one killer in this world? Nothing else can claim more deaths and hatred than religion. Love it.

[Jstar1]

Religion is the basis of morality in this world.
That is one of the main purposes of the Bible.

Sorry, i had to lol....the basis of morality is the number one killer in this world? Nothing else can claim more deaths and hatred than religion. Love it.

the crusades in the middle ages

[Vindicator]

Religion is the basis of morality in this world.
That is one of the main purposes of the Bible.

Sorry, i had to lol....the basis of morality is the number one killer in this world? Nothing else can claim more deaths and hatred than religion. Love it.

the crusades in the middle ages

and?? the crusades were a holy war...because of religion. Thats one event. How about radical muslims killing tons in the name of allah, or any other religous terrorist, such as christian terrorists. Tons of things can be tied to religion, it is extremely deadly.