Iraq by the numbers

[Stallowned]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms. ... ry_id=4228

Discuss.

[XemnasXD]

Higher oil prices, crowded prisons, not enough electricity to go around. Sounds like the US is really bringing parts of home along with it.

[Stallowned]

Higher oil prices, crowded prisons, not enough electricity to go around. Sounds like the US is really bringing parts of home along with it.

Are you really that damn dumb?

I'm not surprised this has only one reply tbh. As they say, bad news sells. If this was about "Iraq a mess, failure the only option" it would be about 3 pages of people who don't know what they're saying giving their expert opionion on the suject.

[ArchYourFace]

I truly hope that’s even close to accurate. And I truly hope that my 3.5 dollars per gallon is going toward the reconstruction of the country, and not the solid gold cars being driven buy the oil tycoons and the palaces the live in. If these ARE accurate, my faith in what we are doing over there may be building again.

[Trice]

Interestingly, doing an essay on this topic.

to put costs into context, had the war not happened, the money spent on it (By America alone) could have:
given everyone in the US health insurance
doubled cancer research
treated every americanwith diabetes and/or heart disease
rebuilt New Orleans
put a peacekeeping force in Darfur
given aid to the Afghan govt

done all these and have $$$ left over.

total aid to Africa/yr is around $5billion.
1 week of War in Iraq is around $5 billion
$10 billion could eliminate world illiteracy

prediction of war costs was $200 billion (ha. someone was havin a laugh)
actual war costs (not including care for wounded, re-armament, or non-US) = $1.2 Trillion

Its all very Dr. Evil numbers, but actually calculated by a team of Nobel Prize winning Economists.


Still, small price to pay for knowing the Middle East is a peaceful and stable region right now...
Neo-conservatism ftl.

[cuchulainn]

Higher oil prices, crowded prisons, not enough electricity to go around. Sounds like the US is really bringing parts of home along with it.

You're quite the little fail aren't you?

Oil prices being higher helps the Iraqis just as much as it hurts us at home.

Prison crowding, yeah, this is bad, but would you rather deaths be rising instead?

Electricy is at or above pre-war levels.

Since the surge, deaths have gone down for both soldiers and citizens.

Would you rather oil prices go down and deaths go up?

I don't agree with the war, but I can't deny that recently, the results have been getting better.

[JacksColon]

Higher oil prices, crowded prisons, not enough electricity to go around. Sounds like the US is really bringing parts of home along with it.

Are you really that damn dumb?

I'm not surprised this has only one reply tbh. As they say, bad news sells. If this was about "Iraq a mess, failure the only option" it would be about 3 pages of people who don't know what they're saying giving their expert opionion on the suject.

Honestly, I can say that it makes sense where the numbers are. The U.S. helped unleash a lot of civil strife that was kept in check by Iraqs totalitarian regime under Saddam. The question of whether or not this war was justified not withstanding, the lack of power, rise in prison populations, oil revenues, etc. seem to be where they should be. The U.S. THOUGHT it could get shit up and running much quicker, but the military is not geared for nation building, specifically so rapidly. There was a lot of wishful thinking done by this administration. And I think that, coupled with lots of other things, is the reason so many are pissed at this situation. That said, I may be EXTREMELY liberal (like, I advocate for socialism hehe), but I don't think a rapid troop withdrawal is the right answer. Colin Powell said, "You break it, you bought it"...we broke, so now we owe it to the Iraqis and the region in general to get this shit back on track....however, I think we can do that now, with less troops.

[XemnasXD]

thanks god after 5 years things are finally getting better. Call me stupid all you want all im not a glass half full kind of person. And just because the Iraq's oil price is rising doesn't mean thats its solely responsible for higher US oil prices. We get oil from multiple sources one of which is owned by our president whose family has made billions off this war. So far we have the deaths over over 150,000 civilians these are ppl like you and me just trying to get by and have been caught up in conflict they had absolutely nothing to do with and they're being forced to pay for freedom with blood. They don't want us there, we don't belong there, we're doing more harm than good. But yet you guys are looking at the numbers and saying hey things are better, thats an easy thing to do when your thousands of miles away and safe at home in your house where you can just turn off the war with a flick of the channel. The numbers conveniently didn't mention the 25,000 troops coming back injured and the lack of treatment ans services they're receiving. But things are better instead of 100 deaths per day its down to only 20 or 10 and really what do they matter in the scheme of things.

Im sorry if don't feel good because instead of going from a hell on earth its now just an extremely shitty place to survive in.

[JacksColon]

I generally agree with emnas on that point. the number of things that have gone wrong make it hard to get up and cheer about the less violence there now

[Stallowned]

I hate how some people still argue about whether or not we should have went in. We did, that was 5 damn years ago, we're tehre now. Nothing anyone can say or do can change what happened over the last five years so bickering about it just avoids the point and is a waste of time.
Having said that, all these dead civilians, dead and injured coalition troops, money spent, etc. Are you saying you want all that to be for nothing if we leave right now seeing as Iraq is still in such a sh1tty state according to you.
As Jackscolon said, you break it you fix it (or something like that.) We're there now. Might as well finish the job. You can hate Bush's guts all you damn want but this isn't about Bush anymore. This is about the Iraqi people, the country of Iraq and the coalition troops. If we leave now, you think world opinion of the US is bad? Let's see how bad it gets when we go in fck up a nation and leave, all for nothing.

[heroo]

bush farked it up.

time to accept the consequences.

you really thought you could go enter Iraq, take all the oil and then leave like nothing happened?

think again.

[Stallowned]

bush farked it up.

time to accept the consequences.

you really thought you could go enter Iraq, take all the oil and then leave like nothing happened?

think again.

Who here is saying that?

[XemnasXD]

stallowned theres a reason i ignore most of the comments you make, its filled with "sh1t" and normally just a testosterone rant. That being said, to my point.

Yes this war is about the Iraqi ppl. We were of course bombing Iraq including hospitals and schools long b4 we went into full scale war but i digress. The Iraqi people who we both agree this war should be about DO NOT WANT US THERE! I cannot stress that enough. THEY DON'T WANT US THERE!!! What part of that don't you get. It is ok if we pull out now because they want us to pull out now. You can't have a completely different country with completely different ideals and ways of life come into another country and attempt to set up a successful gov't. It does not work, thats why its best to stay out of civil conflicts and just offer refuge to the civilians caught up in it because Civil conflict is internal and cannot be solved with outside forces. Any Gov't the US attempts to set up will go through radical changes b4 it is accepted by the people and it'll probably lead to more civil conflict later. If we let go of the country now, set up refuge areas, and allow the internal conflicts to settle it would probably be alot better in the long run than forced continual occupation until we feel it is necessary to leave.

[heroo]

bush farked it up.

time to accept the consequences.

you really thought you could go enter Iraq, take all the oil and then leave like nothing happened?

think again.

Who here is saying that?

wasn't referring to you.

but to the bush adminstration.

[ArchYourFace]

bush farked it up.

time to accept the consequences.

you really thought you could go enter Iraq, take all the oil and then leave like nothing happened?

think again.

Who here is saying that?

wasn't referring to you.

but to the bush adminstration.

how much oil did they get exactly?

[cuchulainn]

stallowned theres a reason i ignore most of the comments you make, its filled with "sh1t" and normally just a testosterone rant. That being said, to my point.

Yes this war is about the Iraqi ppl. We were of course bombing Iraq including hospitals and schools long b4 we went into full scale war but i digress. The Iraqi people who we both agree this war should be about DO NOT WANT US THERE! I cannot stress that enough. THEY DON'T WANT US THERE!!! What part of that don't you get. It is ok if we pull out now because they want us to pull out now. You can't have a completely different country with completely different ideals and ways of life come into another country and attempt to set up a successful gov't. It does not work, thats why its best to stay out of civil conflicts and just offer refuge to the civilians caught up in it because Civil conflict is internal and cannot be solved with outside forces. Any Gov't the US attempts to set up will go through radical changes b4 it is accepted by the people and it'll probably lead to more civil conflict later. If we let go of the country now, set up refuge areas, and allow the internal conflicts to settle it would probably be alot better in the long run than forced continual occupation until we feel it is necessary to leave.

Hospitals...maybe, but doubtful.

Schools no.

Granted, we're a bit responsible for the bad state of their infrastructure since it was bombed during the Gulf War and later in the 90s.

Pull out and let them sort it out has worked so well in other parts of the world hasn't it. Africa has been a mess for god knows how long with (Somalia) or without our help (Sudan, Congo, etc). Vietnam is a superpower and on and on.

Face it, as much as Ron Paul (and others like him) and his cronies like to think, Isolationism is not going to work. 200 years ago, sure. Now, no.

[SaoKill]

War = $$$
That's all.

[bLuE_fLaMe]

crowded prisons, no problem they just have to do what they did before when this happened. Just drop them all off on an island and they will create there own country. like Australia no offense

[XemnasXD]

Cuch africa is farked up because of years of European imperialism and then the sudden removal of all the power and control. That caused a power vacuum and amount of civil unrest so devastating it can still be seen today. Thats the kind of problems im talking about. They originally went and there and established "order" and all it did was the leave the people helpless, stupid, and incapable of creating a stable infrastructure. Thats exactly what i don't want to see happen to Iraq. Saddam was an asshole. He had to go. If they wanted to help the people of Iraq that he was killing they should've given them a place to go like they did to the Jews, not something that drastic but just set a place where they can attempt to live out their lives and let those who wanted to fight against him fight. They've got legs they'll get up and use them. Instead we deposed a dictator and opened the door to all the civil unrest and strife he was holding back now we have to try and restore the order he had without the dictatorial attitude he had and its not working so in the process we've become monsters ourselves going so far as to ignore the civil rights of the people in our own country.

Your looking at the little picture, the events on the surface and whats currently in your face but this has already happened b4, plenty of times and we already know what the outcome will be, history tells us so. The world is a community i understand that and im against isolationism because there is so much good we are capable if we applied our resources the right way but starting a civil war under the guise of "restoring order" and "safe-guarding democracy" is not the way to do it, thats just another form or imperialism, something im also against.

The best thing to do is get out of there come what may and offer aid to any civilians that wish to flee from the storm we brewed up. That is the best thing to do and its the right thing to do and anything short of that is just more needless killing and violence.

[avanti42]

xemnas, im wondering where you get the information that the iraqi civilians hate us there and want us to leave, because i have two cousins who are soldiers in iraq right now and according to them the civilians love the soldiers.

[Stallowned]

xemnas, im wondering where you get the information that the iraqi civilians hate us there and want us to leave, because i have two cousins who are soldiers in iraq right now and according to them the civilians love the soldiers.

It's just according to those 2000 person polls that are used to represtent millions.
To top it off there's no indication as to how the people were chosen.

[Jstar1]

xemnas, im wondering where you get the information that the iraqi civilians hate us there and want us to leave, because i have two cousins who are soldiers in iraq right now and according to them the civilians love the soldiers.

It's just according to those 2000 person polls that are used to represtent millions.
To top it off there's no indication as to how the people were chosen.

avanti's judgement is plainly wrong too. A poll of 2000 people is still hella more accurate than asking the opinions of two people who went to iraq.

and its common sense that your not going to be happy. Imagine if your from sweden and overnight you have american airstrikes on the capital and hummers racing around the streets, and the whole place looks like junk. I don't think you'd be too happy with americans would you?

I don't give a shit if sunnis and shi'ites kill each other. iraq was better off untouched. but now we just had to get sucked up in their stupid ethnic fighting. we need to get out orderly and at least leave the country a bit better off than it was, or your going to have a vietnam where you have people killing each other again.

actually, I think they wouldn't stop if we left cause they've been like that before jesus christ was born.

[avanti42]

^^ dude your looking at it all wrong, first of all i have to cousins who ARE in iraq and they "race" around in hummers 12 hours a day so they get a pretty good look at things.

also if you forget or your just to busy hating on america the terrorists target civilians and civilian places just as much as they do american soldiers. and who might i ask do you think is trying to stop the terrorists from blowing shit up AHH the american soldiers are.

comparing sweden to iraq is idiotic so id rethink that one. im guessing your judging all american soldiers on some videos youve seen on youtube of some asshole making a child run for water but w/e you say retarded shit all the time

[Stallowned]

xemnas, im wondering where you get the information that the iraqi civilians hate us there and want us to leave, because i have two cousins who are soldiers in iraq right now and according to them the civilians love the soldiers.

It's just according to those 2000 person polls that are used to represtent millions.
To top it off there's no indication as to how the people were chosen.

avanti's judgement is plainly wrong too. A poll of 2000 people is still hella more accurate than asking the opinions of two people who went to iraq.

and its common sense that your not going to be happy. Imagine if your from sweden and overnight you have american airstrikes on the capital and hummers racing around the streets, and the whole place looks like junk. I don't think you'd be too happy with americans would you?

I don't give a shit if sunnis and shi'ites kill each other. iraq was better off untouched. but now we just had to get sucked up in their stupid ethnic fighting. we need to get out orderly and at least leave the country a bit better off than it was, or your going to have a vietnam where you have people killing each other again.

actually, I think they wouldn't stop if we left cause they've been like that before jesus christ was born.

Making any reference to Vietnam in a discussion about Iraq = automatic fail.

[Jstar1]

^^ dude your looking at it all wrong, first of all i have to cousins who ARE in iraq and they "race" around in hummers 12 hours a day so they get a pretty good look at things.

also if you forget or your just to busy hating on america the terrorists target civilians and civilian places just as much as they do american soldiers. and who might i ask do you think is trying to stop the terrorists from blowing shit up AHH the american soldiers are.

comparing sweden to iraq is idiotic so id rethink that one. im guessing your judging all american soldiers on some videos youve seen on youtube of some asshole making a child run for water but w/e you say retarded shit all the time

lol im not hating on america, I never said that americans are babie killers and should leave. I'm saying that the iraqis generally hate america.

the sweden comparison has nothing to do with statistical or political comparisons with iraq. Its an example country of what it would feel like for someone if their country got invaded. christ.

[avanti42]

^^ you ever been?

[Stallowned]

I'm saying that the iraqis generally hate america.

Says who?

[JacksColon]

Iraqi Public Opinion

It's a bit dated, I'm currently looking for more recent data.

My opinion on the situation is pretty clear, and I think ti's clear that I disagree with Stallowned and avanti on most of these issues.

and I also don't think drawing comparisons to past conflicts, such as Vietnam, is necessarily a bad thing. I think we should be careful not to draw too many conclusions on those comparisons however. The problem with this situation, no matter what side you sit on, is, what do we do now? I'm not sure I think immediate, unconditional withdrawal is a good idea. Yes, I agree with emnas, that the Iraqis don't want us there. And a very large part of me says that we entered the war illegally, and have since tried to build a governement and security apparattus to our liking. We thought it would be easy, it was not, and now we are paying the price. Emnas, you say look at the big picture. Well, I'm one to agree with that sort of thinking, but I would challenge you to think of what would happen to the REGION - not just Iraq - if Iraq were to crumble in a power vaccum (you claim that Africa is in many places chaotic because colonizers left suddenly, creating a power void. Well, there was a similar vaccum created when we toppled SAddam's regime. Now, a shaky government has been put in place (however unjustifiable it is or how illigitimate you think it might be) and it is slowly now starting to take form and things are turning for the better. Who knows, that could change, i hope it doesn't but it could. But pulling out all semblance of security would create that power vaccum you talk about. And in that sort of a scenario, who's to say regional powers, especially Iran, won't decide to take matters into their own hands? What would Israel do in that case? What about Saudi Arabia? Syria? Turkey? I mean, think about Kurdistan. I do a lot of work on this particular region. It's considered the "Iraq that works" and if there is not US presence, you can bet your ass that Turkey is going to jump all over the chance to quell their Kurdish problem and the functioning democratic Kurdistan in the north, with a vibrant economy, will collapse. And whehter we like it or not - and even if the terrorists weren't there before the invasion - they are there now. We can debate about why terrorism exists, but it's like prostitution, it will always exist. The job of combatting terrorism is to help make it an unattractive option. Opening up a power vaccum (like in the 1990s in Afgahnistan) will NOT make terrorism unnattractive, but have the opposite effect.

However, I disagree with Stallowend and Avanti on other things. Because people like Emnas and myself question the decisions made by the government, or the reasoning/reationale for going to war (questions that still must be addressed and properly answered) does not make us unpatriotic, terrorist sympathizers or any of that other garbage I'm so sick of hearing from the Right. Furthermore, Avanti, using your two soldier buddies as a gauge on the situation in Iraq is completely illogical. You cannot say "well, my two buddies say they love us and it's awesome" and then make the leap in logic that the whole country MUST be that way. Yes, much of the good in Iraq is not reported. But, I can't go to a University of Texas/Texas A&M football game in Austin, find two A&M fans and ask them what A&M is like and if it rules, and then based on their answers say taht Texas fans think the same thing, thus, it MUST be that way. I mean, it doesn't make sense. Soldiers are trained to think a certain way. I have military buddies too, and that's just how it is. Also, I've heard and seen many stories of soldiers who come back stating the EXACT opposite of what your friends say. So, wait, are they pussy, unpatriotic cowards?

I just don't buy a lot of what is said on this topic, and I think that when shit gets polarized like it is, people on each side turn in to whiney fucks that only see things through their narrow, biased tunnel-vision. I'm guilty of this as much as anyone, and I'm a whiney **** a lot of the time, but I think we can do better to stop personal attacks and telling everyone they sound like a Farking idiot, because in the end, the one who says that sounds like the Farking idiot.

so, let's all have a circle jerk now. ookie cookie time!

[Jstar1]

I'm saying that the iraqis generally hate america.

Says who?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

it doesn't take an einstein to know that having another country occupy you for 5 years isn't going to make you happy.

[Stallowned]

Iraqi Public Opinion

It's a bit dated, I'm currently looking for more recent data.

My opinion on the situation is pretty clear, and I think ti's clear that I disagree with Stallowned and avanti on most of these issues.

and I also don't think drawing comparisons to past conflicts, such as Vietnam, is necessarily a bad thing. I think we should be careful not to draw too many conclusions on those comparisons however. The problem with this situation, no matter what side you sit on, is, what do we do now? I'm not sure I think immediate, unconditional withdrawal is a good idea. Yes, I agree with emnas, that the Iraqis don't want us there. And a very large part of me says that we entered the war illegally, and have since tried to build a governement and security apparattus to our liking. We thought it would be easy, it was not, and now we are paying the price. Emnas, you say look at the big picture. Well, I'm one to agree with that sort of thinking, but I would challenge you to think of what would happen to the REGION - not just Iraq - if Iraq were to crumble in a power vaccum (you claim that Africa is in many places chaotic because colonizers left suddenly, creating a power void. Well, there was a similar vaccum created when we toppled SAddam's regime. Now, a shaky government has been put in place (however unjustifiable it is or how illigitimate you think it might be) and it is slowly now starting to take form and things are turning for the better. Who knows, that could change, i hope it doesn't but it could. But pulling out all semblance of security would create that power vaccum you talk about. And in that sort of a scenario, who's to say regional powers, especially Iran, won't decide to take matters into their own hands? What would Israel do in that case? What about Saudi Arabia? Syria? Turkey? I mean, think about Kurdistan. I do a lot of work on this particular region. It's considered the "Iraq that works" and if there is not US presence, you can bet your ass that Turkey is going to jump all over the chance to quell their Kurdish problem and the functioning democratic Kurdistan in the north, with a vibrant economy, will collapse. And whehter we like it or not - and even if the terrorists weren't there before the invasion - they are there now. We can debate about why terrorism exists, but it's like prostitution, it will always exist. The job of combatting terrorism is to help make it an unattractive option. Opening up a power vaccum (like in the 1990s in Afgahnistan) will NOT make terrorism unnattractive, but have the opposite effect.

However, I disagree with Stallowend and Avanti on other things. Because people like Emnas and myself question the decisions made by the government, or the reasoning/reationale for going to war (questions that still must be addressed and properly answered) does not make us unpatriotic, terrorist sympathizers or any of that other garbage I'm so sick of hearing from the Right. Furthermore, Avanti, using your two soldier buddies as a gauge on the situation in Iraq is completely illogical. You cannot say "well, my two buddies say they love us and it's awesome" and then make the leap in logic that the whole country MUST be that way. Yes, much of the good in Iraq is not reported. But, I can't go to a University of Texas/Texas A&M football game in Austin, find two A&M fans and ask them what A&M is like and if it rules, and then based on their answers say taht Texas fans think the same thing, thus, it MUST be that way. I mean, it doesn't make sense. Soldiers are trained to think a certain way. I have military buddies too, and that's just how it is. Also, I've heard and seen many stories of soldiers who come back stating the EXACT opposite of what your friends say. So, wait, are they pussy, unpatriotic cowards?

I just don't buy a lot of what is said on this topic, and I think that when shit gets polarized like it is, people on each side turn in to whiney fucks that only see things through their narrow, biased tunnel-vision. I'm guilty of this as much as anyone, and I'm a whiney **** a lot of the time, but I think we can do better to stop personal attacks and telling everyone they sound like a Farking idiot, because in the end, the one who says that sounds like the Farking idiot.

so, let's all have a circle jerk now. ookie cookie time!

Let me clarify that I never said going in was a good idea in the first place.

Yes some Iraqis want us out, but to say they all do is just ridiculous. Also IF they want us out it is because of the insurgents who attack on Iraqi civilians to drive us out (kind of pointless ? )

I'll take the word of my Soldier and Marine buddies who have actually been there over news stations that are known to take every possible jab against the US. Many Iraqis want to be free, they want a stable functioning government that isn't opressive, they want the terrorists out. Unfortunately in order for that to happen we have to stay there, war isn't pretty so accidents happen.

I like that you agree that immediately getting the hell out of there isn't a good idea. It isn't unpatriotic to question why we went in or how it was handled, but actually wishing failure on our part and death to our people over there (yes I've seen a lot of people want that) should get your ass deported.

Let me ask though. What is really wrong with establishing a government there that is helpful to our interests (assuming the government is not opressive)?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... over_x.htm

it doesn't take an einstein to know that having another country occupy you for 5 years isn't going to make you happy.

Posted 4/28/2004 3:32 PM Updated 4/30/2004 6:54 AM

Very very strong failure.