ofy1993 wrote:if I am under no religion, how is it that I ought to be doing the right thing? I mean what restrains an atheist from becoming a serial killer? If there is no book/religion you believe in, what would prohibit you from murdering a guy in a 3rd world somewhere in Africa? No one would know.
My point is, if there is no "wrong", how is there a "right" thing to do?
Wrong and Right do not solely stem from religion; Morality can come from the individual; we all have our own idea of what is "wrong," and we all have our own idea of what is considered "good." These perceptions come from how we view the world; of course these perceptions could be shaped to some degree from religion; however, most people are defined from external forces and act according to assumptions and expectations that these external forces have of them (one of those external forces could be religion); i.e., believing that homosexuality is "wrong;" believing that having premarital sex is "wrong;" not paying your taxes is "wrong;" the list goes on and on dependent on culture and society, and how extensively these shape one's view of the world.
We should stop treating people like objects, or at least treat our objects with more respect.
ofy1993 wrote: if I am under no religion, how is it that I ought to be doing the right thing? I mean what restrains an atheist from becoming a serial killer? The laws/rules set by the society. If there is no book/religion you believe in, You don't need a book/religion to have good morals. what would prohibit you from murdering a guy in a 3rd world somewhere in Africa? No one would know.
My point is, if there is no "wrong", how is there a "right" thing to do? Define right and wrong for me,and tell me why religions definition of right and wrong is the correct definition.
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Don't make ridiculous assumptions. What in religion makes it right for a guy to blow himself up along with 30 other people. Really don't go there you'll just be shot down.
NuclearSilo wrote:and god will secretly help you...
Why would God only secretly help you? Is he embarassed to help you publicly? secretly because: 1.he never shows his face to the public 2.he never directly tell you that he is helping you Since your post implies that God will only help you if you're a good person, and all of the bad people won't get any help from God. So he helps good people secretly so the bad people aren't aware of this help? How can you aware if he is helping someone or not? I thought God was supposed to be a kind, loving deity, loving everyone equally, even if they don't love him back... Seems a bit selfish of him to not provide this help to certain people just because he thinks they are bad, or because those people don't believe in his existence. About this, I think it depends on the point of view of each person. For me, God is the creator of all. He helps good ppl and punish bad ppl. If you say he helps both good and bad ppl, then both have the same privilege, then ask yourself what's the point of being a good person, isn't being a bad person and robbing a bank, rape all the girls on the street better? Imo, punish or not helping is a way to help a bad person to be a good person. So after all, he helps all of us to be a good person
f I am under no religion, how is it that I ought to be doing the right thing? I mean what restrains an atheist from becoming a serial killer? If there is no book/religion you believe in, what would prohibit you from murdering a guy in a 3rd world somewhere in Africa? No one would know.
My point is, if there is no "wrong", how is there a "right" thing to do?
Actually, there is no real evidence that God tell human what is good and what is bad. "Good" and "bad" are properties which are defined by human. Saying killing a person is bad because ppl say so. In ancient time, animals eat animals, humans eat animals, humans eat humans, etc... And then they decide to create a common rule to judge things: Law. That's said, smt is good/bad because someone else tell you so or you learned from someone else, not because you know in the beginning that it is good/bad (in pure meaning)
i am Orthedox Christian , and yes i do believe in my religion not cuz my parents are , but cuz i do believe in god , i do believe in miracles ... Ppl are searching the truth if there is any god , but truth my friends is lie itself Its like making circles without any ending
John_Doe wrote:Don't make ridiculous assumptions. What in religion makes it right for a guy to blow himself up along with 30 other people. Really don't go there you'll just be shot down.
you're one to talk. Where does our religion say it's ok to blow yourself up and 30 people along with you? On the contrary, suiciding is a sin in Islam. Forgive me than all those suicide bombers must be reading a different holy book.
ofy1993 wrote:enemy is invading your land. they follow no morale of leaving women and children and will kill all. do you REALLY have a choice? Wait what point is this statement proving/trying to prove?
This is about the situations in Palestine and Iraq.
Whereas suicide bombers who would even bomb 30 atheists Why does it have to be athiest can't it just be 30 random people, seeing as anyone who's does not follow Islam is an infidel. in a mall would be a huge sin and they would be reading the same book as us, but just not following it. Terrorism is NEVER allowed in Islam. You say it wrong in the book, the terrorist say it's justisfied by the book, see what happens when your morality comes only from a book.
Don't automatically assume just cause there's a guy you saw with a long beard who was a living bomb in a public places means he's Muslim and that Islam allows terrorism. I'm not really assuming when the leader of the suicide bombers made a video saying their holy book/god is the only god and is the justificaton for their actions.
Also:
I just got up to say this and going to bed. I am in no way near close to having enough knowledge about Atheism and their views to have a proper arguement with any atheists out there. And if you don't know exactly the correct views about something in Islam, then I suggest you don't talk about it either till you get your facts straight. When we talk about views are we talking about the views of Islamic people, or the views presented by the Islamic Holy book? Let me ask you: What is your view or the Islamic view on someone who wants to leave the Islamic religion for whatever reason?
What is the Islamic's Holy books view on someone who wants to leave the Islamic religion for whatever reason?
Last edited by John_Doe on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I expected a better understanding of the complexities of religion and their respective doctrines from you John_Doe...what exactly is the point you're trying to make here?
signatures by Hostage Co. <3 ~PoP is DEAD! My sTyLe is Supa-Flat!!~
XemnasXD wrote:I expected a better understanding of the complexities of religion and their respective doctrines from you John_Doe...what exactly is the point you're trying to make here?
islam=Terrorism. thats what he is trying to prove.
ofy already told u
Terrorism is NEVER allowed in Islam
You say it wrong in the book, the terrorist say it's justisfied by the book,
ok imma pay ya 10$ u bomb somewhere and u say allah said that in quran oki menz?
What is your view or the Islamic view on someone who wants to leave the Islamic religion for whatever reason?
leave, then go to usa or anywhere, and start telling people "omg menz i was in islam they suck they do bla bla bla *starts making his own new fake stories* " if u ever follow any religion u wont accept that.. will u?
XemnasXD wrote:I expected a better understanding of the complexities of religion and their respective doctrines from you John_Doe...what exactly is the point you're trying to make here?
islam=Terrorism. thats what he is trying to prove.
ofy already told u
Terrorism is NEVER allowed in Islam
You say it wrong in the book, the terrorist say it's justisfied by the book,
ok imma pay ya 10$ u bomb somewhere and u say allah said that in quran oki menz?
What is your view or the Islamic view on someone who wants to leave the Islamic religion for whatever reason?
leave, then go to usa or anywhere, and start telling people "omg menz i was in islam they suck they do bla bla bla *starts making his own new fake stories* " if u ever follow any religion u wont accept that.. will u?
Most stupid and ignorant response so far. Do you even know what your book says about apostasy?
I didn't think i asked for Strwarrior to explain what John_Doe was intending with this discussion...pretty sure i asked John_Doe specifically because his opinion on what he was saying was the only one that interested me atm...
signatures by Hostage Co. <3 ~PoP is DEAD! My sTyLe is Supa-Flat!!~
XemnasXD wrote:I expected a better understanding of the complexities of religion and their respective doctrines from you John_Doe...what exactly is the point you're trying to make here?
islam=Terrorism. thats what he is trying to prove.
ofy already told u
Terrorism is NEVER allowed in Islam
You say it wrong in the book, the terrorist say it's justisfied by the book,
ok imma pay ya 10$ u bomb somewhere and u say allah said that in quran oki menz?
What is your view or the Islamic view on someone who wants to leave the Islamic religion for whatever reason?
leave, then go to usa or anywhere, and start telling people "omg menz i was in islam they suck they do bla bla bla *starts making his own new fake stories* " if u ever follow any religion u wont accept that.. will u?
Most stupid and ignorant response so far. Do you even know what your book says about apostasy?
yea i did, punishment is death, did i say something not like that?
It may seem like im picking on the Islamic but its only because Offy is Islamics and he suggest that those without religion have no morality, I can just had easily pick on christianity if someone who was christian brought it up.
@Str now that's your book's view what is your view on apostasy, do yo agree with your book or do you differ in opinion.
Last edited by John_Doe on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Agnostic, I truly want to believe in a higher power, but I know that religion was only made up to comfort us all from death. When we depart this earth there will be no Heaven, and there will be no Hell only darkness... just like when you dream hence the phrase "RIP". We will not even know that we existed. -I believe that religion is the main cause of war and violence between different cultures. -I also think that it is one reason we have not advanced in certain fields of science.
John_Doe wrote:@Str now that's your book's view what is your view on apostasy, do yo agree with your book or do you differ in opinion.
i do agree, lets say some1 was "anything" and now he is muslim, while reading quran, or learning his religion, he will get alot of proofs that there is god, islam is true, and Mohammed didnt made Quran from him self, i dont see any real reason for leaving, and starting believing in "Chances", or any another thing.
John_Doe wrote:@Str now that's your book's view what is your view on apostasy, do yo agree with your book or do you differ in opinion.
i do agree, lets say some1 was "anything" and now he is muslim, while reading quran, or learning his religion, he will get alot of proofs that there is god, islam is true, and Mohammed didnt made Quran from him self, i dont see any real reason for leaving, and starting believing in "Chances", or any another thing.
For your justification to work we must accept that anyone who pratices Islam will see it as the right religion, which in itself is just a matter of opinion. Therefore I don't see how difference of opinion justifys killing someone. Or to be more exact your opinion justifys killing someone.Why is it right to kill someone who just doesn't hold the same opinion as you?
John_Doe wrote:@Str now that's your book's view what is your view on apostasy, do yo agree with your book or do you differ in opinion.
i do agree, lets say some1 was "anything" and now he is muslim, while reading quran, or learning his religion, he will get alot of proofs that there is god, islam is true, and Mohammed didnt made Quran from him self, i dont see any real reason for leaving, and starting believing in "Chances", or any another thing.
For your justification to work we must accept that anyone who pratices Islam will see it as the right religion, which in itself is just a matter of opinion. Therefore I don't see how difference of opinion justifys killing someone. Or to be more exact your opinion justifys killing someone.Why is it right to kill someone who just doesn't hold the same opinion as you?
w00t wrote:Are you religious? If so, what religion are you a follower of and why?
Im not religious, mostly because my parents are not. Later on in my life (im 22 years old now) I never really felt the need to follow a religion.
Please keep it clean and respectfull !
This topic is very sensitive. I believe religion is nothing more than human made story same as bible. God was ultimate tool to scare shit out of people in middle ages. Although i do not believe in God/Allah/Jahweh/Budah i still respect those who do believe. One guy once told that if there was no god, you should make one. Imagine the world without fear of god for a second in middle ages. It would be in chaos. But "with" god there was an order and piece. Church had power then, but right now everything is different...
zShared wrote: And if you're a good person you: (?)
You... don't have to be rewarded for doing what you ought to be doing.
if I am under no religion, how is it that I ought to be doing the right thing? I mean what restrains an atheist from becoming a serial killer? If there is no book/religion you believe in, what would prohibit you from murdering a guy in a 3rd world somewhere in Africa? No one would know.
My point is, if there is no "wrong", how is there a "right" thing to do?
You ought to be the right thing because it generally makes life easier for you and those around you. A holy book shouldn't have to tell you not kill, if you really need to be told not to kill then I have some bad news.
People can read anything and believe in it... That's called being brainwashed. The way I feel is if your basing God is real judging by a book then that is just ignorant. Please provide us with solid evidence that what that book says is real, or truth that goes towards all religion. There is none all there is are fictional stories created by humans beings. It is like the Bible it say's, "Oh, Moses made a path through some water so they could cross, or so and so walked on water." I call Bullshit, I have never seen these feats accomplished and until the day that I do see them I will remain a non-believer.
Do you really believe everything that you have not seen? If that book said, "convince a group of people to follow you. Go to the nearest bridge and tell them if they do not jump off this bridge after you jump that you will all be damned to Hell for eternity." Would you still do it? Do you seriously think that the group of people is going to follow you? No, they are more than likely to look down and go **** this let's watch you do it then afterwards point and laugh...
Strwarrior wrote:why u know something is true and then reject it?
i would like to ask a question. what if i am born to a family of muslim, but i never agree, therefore i never left something i "knew" was true, would i be subject to death?
zShared wrote: And if you're a good person you: (?)
You... don't have to be rewarded for doing what you ought to be doing.
if I am under no religion, how is it that I ought to be doing the right thing? I mean what restrains an atheist from becoming a serial killer? If there is no book/religion you believe in, what would prohibit you from murdering a guy in a 3rd world somewhere in Africa? No one would know.
My point is, if there is no "wrong", how is there a "right" thing to do?
What restrains a Catholic priest from molesting a 12 year old boy? (no offense to any Catholics out there).
You don't have to believe in a higher power, or some deity floating in space, to have morals. My daughter is 3 years old. She knows nothing, yet, about God, but she knows she's not supposed to push her sister on the floor and make her cry.
People learn right and wrong not only from some "god" but also from the morals and right/wrong concepts of the society in which they live and grow up in. Likewise, someone can be religious, and still commit moral crimes (if not legal crimes).
Missing the good times in SRO...
SRO: 1x, STR Blader (Thebes) 54, STR blader (Venice) 0x, INT wizard (Venice) 19, INT spear (Venice) 34, STR rogue/bard (Venus) 0x, STR blader (Venus) 8x, INT bard/cleric (Gaia)
Its like making circles without any ending 
