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From the video I have seen of the mob density in the Jangan caves, it looks like it would be very difficult for a tank to lure especially in such a big room and with ranged attack mobs. Would a rouge finally be used instead of the second tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-HrALhh1SQ

Rogues are naturally better at luring but even so, what build would it replace in an Euro pt? There was a discussion about fitting rogues in a pt in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=98528

Guardia wrote:Absolutely no rogues.

Replace a wiz for a rogue = Way low overall dmg. Less AOE attacks.
Replace a tank for a rogue = Lost 2 quota, 2 magical fence, 2 physical fence.
Replace a bard for a rogue = Lost Dance of Wizardry, 1 tambour.
Replace a warlock for a rogue = Way low DPS, no Zerk Machine, no 30 seconds PTG down. :p
Replace a cleric for a rogue = Stupid.

Sry rogues, go solo or get bard/warrior sub.

There are ways to fit a rogue in but those parties are not as good as the ideal one.

As for the size of the caves, if there are no mobs with a high spawn rate, we could try mastering a mobile party...

I wish Joymax incorporated a little more party specific skills to the Rogue. It's lack of apparent specialization in some area make people biased against them (in regards to parties). Adding a useful buff and changing the Scorn skills (which prevent a target from attacking anyone else but you) to work on mobs would have been great.

As it is now, I see a Rogue (XBow), being arguably the most versatile of the euro classes, having a variety of roles in parties, adjusting his/her role depending on the context (lurer/protector/secondary damage dealer/support).

I haven't done this, but can't a Rogue assist a tank with luring by accompanying him and using Fast Shot / Rapid Shot to lure a bunch mobs in the distance in and when they get close enough, the tank will taunt them and pull them. I assume you can get a lot more mobs this way. I can also see a Rogue with a sub cleric being useful, if needed, can help heal the tank with Healing Cycle or do other emergency healing while out on the lure (since the Healing Cycle applied by the cleric may run out during the lure and you'd probably want cleric to stay close with party).

Another role is as a protector / crowd control. Standing near the ints, the range of the XBow allows a rogue to pick off any mobs approaching the party from the side or rear before they can reach the party. The knockdown and push back skills in particular will help in keeping them from getting close to the ints and allow the Wizards/Warlocks to focus on the main lure. This is where a Scorn skill that worked on mobs would have been particularly good, it would clearly define one of the roles of a Rogue as protector. When the party is relatively safe, the rogue can maintain his position near the ints and serve as a second damage dealer to the main lure.

I'm not necessarily implying a rogue should be the "ideal" party setup but felt motivated to write something in favor of Rogues because so many dismiss them prematurely or go with "what does a rogue do better/replace that X do"---how about they don't replace any existing role--but are flexible and can do variety of different things that are useful... in that sense, they provide a new, different role that no other can do

Conroe wrote:I wish Joymax incorporated a little more party specific skills to the Rogue. It's lack of apparent specialization in some area make people biased against them (in regards to parties). Adding a useful buff and changing the Scorn skills (which prevent a target from attacking anyone else but you) to work on mobs would have been great.

As it is now, I see a Rogue (XBow), being arguably the most versatile of the euro classes, having a variety of roles in parties, adjusting his/her role depending on the context (lurer/protector/secondary damage dealer/support).

I haven't done this, but can't a Rogue assist a tank with luring by accompanying him and using Fast Shot / Rapid Shot to lure a bunch mobs in the distance in and when they get close enough, the tank will taunt them and pull them. I assume you can get a lot more mobs this way. I can also see a Rogue with a sub cleric being useful, if needed, can help heal the tank with Healing Cycle or do other emergency healing while out on the lure (since the Healing Cycle applied by the cleric may run out during the lure and you'd probably want cleric to stay close with party).

Another role is as a protector / crowd control. Standing near the ints, the range of the XBow allows a rogue to pick off any mobs approaching the party from the side or rear before they can reach the party. The knockdown and push back skills in particular will help in keeping them from getting close to the ints and allow the Wizards/Warlocks to focus on the main lure. This is where a Scorn skill that worked on mobs would have been particularly good, it would clearly define one of the roles of a Rogue as protector. When the party is relatively safe, the rogue can maintain his position near the ints and serve as a second damage dealer to the main lure.

I'm not necessarily implying a rogue should be the "ideal" party setup but felt motivated to write something in favor of Rogues because so many dismiss them prematurely or go with "what does a rogue do better/replace that X do"---how about they don't replace any existing role--but are flexible and can do variety of different things that are useful... in that sense, they provide a new, different role that no other can do

well 2 warriors 2 bards 2 wizzards a rogue and a warlock, i mean past lvl 50 warlocks start getting aoe debuffs and dots, the kill rate will would be good every one gets a warrior buff minus the bards, the kill rate would be constant pretty good, and non stop mobs, and no one loosing xp from luring out of xp range while mobs die cause the rogue can stay put (the ints get too greedy and ignore the fact the person lureing is missing alot of xp) This sounds like it should be a very good party set up still, and if needed the rogue can start to help with kills if there are a few too many mobs, every body stays safe, the rogue will protect so the mobs will go to the warrior after the rogue shots it, no agro worries fast kills non stop mobs

edit: have had this party set up lower down like at penons and it was still excellent, would like to try it after having a warlock that has aoe effects, want to see what the kill rate would really be like. And don't forgot poison trap and poison feild all the mobs will end up posioned, so if the warlocks don't use their posion dots they can have that in addition to their own dots making things go down alot faster

they got range attack so what?XD wizard do too, and tanks can lure without touching mobs (taunt)

case closed fack rogues in grind parties

[SD]Kratos wrote:they got range attack so what?XD wizard do too, and tanks can lure without touching mobs (taunt)

case closed fack rogues in grind parties

taunt is way less range then rapid shot, rapid shot is damn near visual range

[SD]Kratos wrote:they got range attack so what?XD wizard do too, and tanks can lure without touching mobs (taunt)

case closed fack rogues in grind parties

fail

I'm not implying using a rogue in place of tanker or primary damage dealer if that's what is exactly is needed...

seems like you failed to grasp what was said

true, duh, a wizard has ranged attacks, my point was one of the useful roles of a rogue is as a capable protector using his much longer range to take out mobs who pose a threat to the ints (who can't absorb too much damage and warriors don't tank/aggro mobs 100%). rogues can absorb some damage, have the long range capability, and knockback / knockdown skills to be effective at this. obviously another warrior can do serve as a protector as well, but as I mentioned a rogue has other unique capabilities than can be useful in other contexts

i say fack to someone who prefers to reject someone based on class before evaluating their usefulness/skill level/teamwork in a party

there's a reason no one use rogues in parties.

I'd rather have a good warrior who knows how to lure properly than a rogue (see guardia's quote)

Warlocks are gonna lure, end of discussion.
Phantasma + Protect = whole area around the pt lured
This combo has a wider range than the taunt. I tested it.
It's just that Phantasma has 10sec cooldown so I can't spam it, but it's definitely better for luring than taunt.

Astra wrote:Warlocks are gonna lure, end of discussion.
Phantasma + Protect = whole area around the pt lured
This combo has a wider range than the taunt. I tested it.
It's just that Phantasma has 10sec cooldown so I can't spam it, but it's definitely better for luring than taunt.

too bad the cave mobs are so far apart from what is shown, almost looked like the big rooms had a checkerboard pattern spawn lay out, with clusters at each box on the board

[SD]Kratos wrote:there's a reason no one use rogues in parties.

Can you elaborate on that reason?

Guardia was discussing the "ideal" euro parties.

I'm going with what Izaach said, "There are ways to fit a rogue in but those parties are not as good as the ideal one." My problem is with just saying there's never a way to rogue to fit in and simply going "fack rogues".

I guess we can agree to disagree.

The trouble with the "rogues as protectors" idea is that at higher levels ints don't need protecting; with both tambours, fences/quota and healing orbit party mobs really don't pose much threat to ints. The only time an int is vulnerable is when they don't have fences, and the only time they won't have fences is when a warrior has been replaced by a rogue. As for pulling two warriors and a warlock can do that just fine, and if the rogue is there to do damage then they are just as weak, if not weaker than, the ints. So yes rogues are versatile but it's a case of being a jack of all trades and master of none.

well the problem is that because every mob is far apart and the two warrior luring setup at chasers might not work. So i was thinking that if the rogue goes to lure because of its range and then the warrior would pick it up. The warrior would then split buffs to the 4 ints that are currently buffed by 2 tanks.

so Cleric and Wiz/Lock -> Quota and then 2 Wiz -> Fences and then Rogue can lure while tank protects.

The grinding isn't too bad for what I've seen. You definitely need a set lurer like a Rogue, Chinese Int(W/ Shouts), Bower(W/ Mind Bow line) Warlock or Blader(W/ Sword Dance line). There's plenty of mobs just spread out. Those rooms with the lowered middle areas have a good spawn rate from what I've seen.

my rogue and fly's bow char will own these caves solo

Conroe wrote:

[SD]Kratos wrote:there's a reason no one use rogues in parties.

Can you elaborate on that reason?

Guardia was discussing the "ideal" euro parties.

I'm going with what Izaach said, "There are ways to fit a rogue in but those parties are not as good as the ideal one." My problem is with just saying there's never a way to rogue to fit in and simply going "fack rogues".

I guess we can agree to disagree.

reason? everyone wants the most efficient party

um, shout has like 25m range.

its probly the same as luring rockies.

[SD]Kratos wrote:

Conroe wrote:

[SD]Kratos wrote:there's a reason no one use rogues in parties.

Can you elaborate on that reason?

Guardia was discussing the "ideal" euro parties.

I'm going with what Izaach said, "There are ways to fit a rogue in but those parties are not as good as the ideal one." My problem is with just saying there's never a way to rogue to fit in and simply going "fack rogues".

I guess we can agree to disagree.

reason? everyone wants the most efficient party

screw efficentcy i want to die every 15 minutes so i don't gain xp

the_wicked wrote:um, shout has like 25m range.

its probly the same as luring rockies.

um, assuming the site i checked is correct, shout has 10m range. with passives fast shot/rapid shot has range of about 19m

Conroe wrote:I'm not implying using a rogue in place of tanker or primary damage dealer if that's what is exactly is needed...

But what your saying, you HAVE to imply that. You can only hold 8 people in a party. Some build is going to have to be replaced to add a rogue.

um, assuming the site i checked is correct, shout has 10m range. with passives fast shot/rapid shot has range of about 19m

10 meters, but 360 degrees.

soo we usually train at he highest lv mobs =P that have a decent spawn rate...any1 have an idea of mobs in cave? type of damage? that things will be usefull

Do ideal mobs are physical based with a high spawnrate. To know these, we'll have to wait.

If a tank can efficiently pull the aggro from a rogue and hold it, you can do without the buffs.

I a rogue luring in a PT, especially in places like penons, or other wide open areas.
Fast XP.

Pretty sure the level 100 mobs have a good spawn rate. They're like Yeowas with a Sword and Shield, physical only.

Getting there will be all the fun -_________- no bard? Better buy a 100% speed there are so many rooms and paths and for lvl 90s we'd have to go straight to the last floor

The grinding isn't too bad for what I've seen. You definitely need a set lurer like a Rogue, Chinese Int(W/ Shouts), Bower(W/ Mind Bow line) Warlock or Blader(W/ Sword Dance line). There's plenty of mobs just spread out. Those rooms with the lowered middle areas have a good spawn rate from what I've seen.

Chinese in a pt? No offense to all the chinese players here, but that never works =/ They take away too much exp and are not as efficient as euros in a pt. The rogue idea seems to be better, that one or maybe just the typical party set.

Can you elaborate on that reason?

Guardia was discussing the "ideal" euro parties.

I'm going with what Izaach said, "There are ways to fit a rogue in but those parties are not as good as the ideal one." My problem is with just saying there's never a way to rogue to fit in and simply going "fack rogues".

I guess we can agree to disagree.

It's just that, like guardia pointed out, rogues are easily replacable by other euros. People tend to prefer other builds than rogues for that, it's a generality I suppose.


Ranged mobs or not, people always find a way to grind on them... 100 cap isn't coming tomorrow, don't be worried if it looks difficult at the first sight. Well, that's my opinon

Conroe wrote:Rogue (XBow): the most versatile of the euro classes, having a variety of roles in parties, adjusting his/her role depending on the context (lurer/protector/secondary damage dealer/support).

That's a great way of thinking about this, being versatile is always great in a party. I think as of now this is the best reason for the rouge to be useful in parties.

Guthix wrote:

The grinding isn't too bad for what I've seen. You definitely need a set lurer like a Rogue, Chinese Int(W/ Shouts), Bower(W/ Mind Bow line) Warlock or Blader(W/ Sword Dance line). There's plenty of mobs just spread out. Those rooms with the lowered middle areas have a good spawn rate from what I've seen.

Chinese in a pt? No offense to all the chinese players here, but that never works =/ They take away too much exp and are not as efficient as euros in a pt. The rogue idea seems to be better, that one or maybe just the typical party set.

It's what I've seen on kSRO. And it works for them seeing as they're 100.

Corrupt wrote:Getting there will be all the fun -_________- no bard? Better buy a 100% speed there are so many rooms and paths and for lvl 90s we'd have to go straight to the last floor

lol were going straight for the lvl 100s

Meh, with 2 tanks and a warlock. It'll be ok. Don't forget, that video was horrible. I saw at least 4 chinese in the party, not a single tank, nor a warlock, nor a bard.

Bards with 100% speed. If the cap mobs are magical then tanks will be in robes or LA, so they'll be even faster. Warlock with dusk armor draws a balls load of aggro + phantasma. Shouldn't be much harder then bunwangs or mujigis. Except the level's are higher, thats all.