Whats the legit guilds in Venus as of now?

[Toasty]

They had been lettin bots in union and guild toasty. Sorry but i draw the line at doin what you gotta do at adding Botters in the guild. Like i said, shoulda disbanned.

Adding botters into the guild?

Ah, if thats true i take back what i said.

[Terrence]

They had been lettin bots in union and guild toasty. Sorry but i draw the line at doin what you gotta do at adding Botters in the guild. Like i said, shoulda disbanned.

See if you can name one that is still in the guild.

I posted something on the guild forum, you go ahead and read.

[Balderdash]

Once you're a bot guild it's kinda hard to recover from that. Many guilds stayed legit the whole time and never joined Legacy Union.

[Terrence]

Once you're a bot guild it's kinda hard to recover from that. Many guilds stayed legit the whole time and never joined Legacy Union.

First of all, thank you for not flaming. I appreciate it a lot.

I assume you consider us bot guild because either 1) the guild allows partying with non-whitelisted, or 2) we joined Legacy Union resulting in a generalization that we are a bot guild due to others in the union are also bot guilds.

Two years ago back in BlackHand Alliance, I coined the term "third-type players" in my thesis argument to the 9th rule of Avalon. Two years later today, this thesis becomes reality. We are the third-type players. Other servers except Venus are Ninjitsually legit (and some of you will argue our usage of the word "legit" in this content); Venus was founded by Avalonian legits. I'm not saying whether Ninjitsual legits is bad or a better choice, but some old-school players who returned have chosen this route.

I haven't posted in this forum for a while, and the discussion between Oyukiyo and me was my longest so far.

[Guardia]

Once you're a bot guild it's kinda hard to recover from that. Many guilds stayed legit the whole time and never joined Legacy Union.

First of all, thank you for not flaming. I appreciate it a lot.

I assume you consider us bot guild because either 1) the guild allows partying with non-whitelisted, or 2) we joined Legacy Union resulting in a generalization that we are bot guild due others in the union are also bot guilds.

Two years ago back in BlackHand Alliance, I coined the term "third-type players" in my thesis argument to the 9th rule of Avalon. Two years later today, this thesis becomes reality. We are the third-type players. Other servers except Venus are Ninjitsually legit (and some of you will argue our usage of the word "legit" in this content), Venus was founded by Avalonian legits. I'm not saying whether Ninjitsual legits is bad or a better choice, but some old-school players who returned have chosen this route.

I haven't posted in this forum for a while, and the discussion between Oyukiyo and me was my longest so far.

Who r u again?

[Blindfire]

Terry the cleric/bard.

[Panu]

Having Ninjitsu join Legacy union was probably the most effective way from keeping Ninjitsu from dying. Note this was all before Etnica (or w/e) and their union of lesser known legit guilds came back to play. Dont blame Ninjitsu for joining Legacy, cause at that very moment...there wasnt a legit union.

[Dark Ashelin]

As for myself, I don't blame Ninjitsu for changing the rules to allow parties with bots. I can understand why they did it, and that it was pretty much necessary to stay alive.

What I do blame them for and what made me lose a lot of respect for them is that they joined Legacy union (the biggest bot union we were ALWAYS in war with). And as far as I can see they didn't even try to rebuild a legit union, all they did was complain that legits are dead and that we betrayed them. When Etnica union came back, they didn't support us at all either, they were all very negative to us and said we will fail.

I think we (Etnica union) showed them wrong. It IS possible to rebuild a whole legit union with just a few people. I myself have recruited over 200 new and old legit people in just a few weeks. Don't tell me it isn't possible...

[Terrence]

Dark Ashelin,

I would like to clarify some statements that you've made and add some information to the public's knowledge so that they can take a glance at the history after the Avalon period.

---------------------

Regarding to your statement that we didn't try to rebuild a legit union and complain that Avalonian legits are dead and that Ninjitsuians betrayed Avalonians, at first I was wondering what type of legit union were you referring to, Avalonianally legit union or Ninjitsually legit union? Apparently, Ninjitsuians cannot create Avalonianially legit union due to the contradiction of the player types. Therefore, I would assume you are referring to Ninjitsually legit union. And in this case, I would like to inform you about the timeline of our history:

• June 13, 2009: A union titled Ninjitsu SuddenDeath Alliance (NSA)
  was formed. Leading guild of the NSA was Ninjitsu, follower guilds were SuddenDeath, ThePhoenix, and Net_Warriors. The Next Generation Legit Forum was also formed to replace the IGameLegit Forum.
  
• June 20, 2009: Odyssey, CosaNostra, Fable, and DragonHeart moved from Avalon Union to NSA.
  
• June 21 ~ 24, 2009: Discussion of the "partying with bots" concept was raised, resulting in Odyssey moving back to Avalon Union from NSA.
  
• July 2, 2009: DragonHeart left NSA.
  
• July 7, 2009: With people quitting Venus, moving to Taiwanese SRO, and joining bot guilds or neutral guilds (the third-type-player guilds), the "Partying with bots" rule was allowed in NSA. Also, Fable left NSA.
  
• July 6, 2009: WarPigs joined NSA.
  
• July 8, 2009: The Confederation section and the Dungeon section disappeared from the IGameLegit Forum. Also, CanadaDry joined and left NSA on the same day.
  
• July 16, 2009: The "Partying with bots" rule was overturned in NSA. On the same day, Ninjitsu Suddendeath Alliance was renamed to Ninjitsu Union.
  
• July 21, 2009: Onyx joined Ninjitsu Union.
  
• July 24, 2009: CosaNostra and Shockwave joined Ninjitsu Union.
  
• August 6, 2009: CosaNostra left Ninjitsu Union.
  
• August 18, 2009: The "Partying with bots" rule was reopened in Ninjitsu Union.
  
• September 12, 2009: WeLoveBR joined Ninjitsu Union.
  
• October 11, 2009: Ultima joined Ninjitsu Union.
  
• October 15, 2009: SuddenDeath was announced dead and was removed from Ninjitsu Union. Also, SkullnBones joined Ninjitsu Union.
  
• November 14, 2009: WeLoveBR left Ninjitsu Union.
  
• December 1, 2009: WarPigs left Ninjitsu Union because they would like 24/7 bot plvl.
  
• December 3, 2009: Onyx left Ninjitsu Union to follow WarPigs' playing style.
  
• December 5, 2009: SkullnBones left Ninjitsu Union.
  
• December 7, 2009: Ultima and Genjitsu (an alt guild of Ninjitsu) are the only guilds left in Ninjitsu Union. Due to their inactivites, Ninjitsu Union was disbanded. The Next Generation Legit Forum was terminated.
  
• December 7, 2009 ~ February 3, 2010: Ninjitsu guild joined ROW Union (formerly known as TFS.)
  
• February 4, 2010 ~ March 19, 2010: Ninjitsu guild joined Legacy Union.
  
• March 21, 2010: Ninjitsu guild formed it's own union titled Ninja Family with Genjitsu and Taijitsu. Niya joined Ninja Family on early April 2010.

The following contains all historical participating guilds within the Ninjitsu SuddenDeath Alliance / Ninjitsu Union in chronological order:

- Genjitsu (July 4, 2009 ~ December 7, 2009)
- Ultima (October 11, 2009 ~ December 7, 2009)
- SkullnBones (October 15, 2009 ~ December 5, 2009)
- Onyx (July 21, 2009 ~ December 3, 2009)
- WarPigs (July 6, 2009 ~ December 1, 2009)
- WeLoveBR (September 12, 2009 ~ November 14, 2009)
- SuddenDeath (June 13, 2009 ~ October 15, 2009)
- HeartIess (September 19, 2009 ~ September 23, 2009)
- Shockwave (July 24, 2009 ~ August 6, 2009)
- CosaNostra (June 20, 2009 ~ August 6, 2009)
- ThePhoenix (June 13, 2009 ~ July 29, 2009)
- Net_Warriors (June 16, 2009 ~ July 11, 2009)
- CanadaDry (July 8, 2009 ~ July 8, 2009)
- Fable (June 20, 2009 ~ July 7, 2009)
- DragonHeart (June 20, 2009 ~ July 2, 2009)
- Odyssey (June 20, 2009 ~ June 24, 2009)

Ninjitsu has its own guild page for a reason, which is to record everything that is related to Ninjitsu and to support whatever Ninjitsu has done. And I don't think any guild on the Venus server has ever recorded something in this detailed manner.

As you can see, the entire Ninjitsu Union lasted June 2009 ~ December 2009. Onyx and WarPigs left Ninjitsu Union to play in a more freely rules. DragonHeart, Odyssey, CosaNostra, Shockwave, ThePhoenix, and Net_Warriors left Ninjitsu Union to go back to the Avalonian style, and nowadays, ThePhoenix and DragonHeart are still alive, but DragonHeart is inactive. Hence we concluded that Avalonian legits are dead.

So I would like to tell you that we did attempt to build a Ninjitsually legit union. When everyone became inactive, that's when Ninjitsu Union was disbanded. Hence we joined ROW and Legacy Union.

---------------------

There is also a hasty generalization (especially to the people who do not even play the game) that joining a bot union implies that we start botting, which is not correct. Even Z3rgling, the leader of the Legacy Union, helped Ninjitsu to catch any Ninjitsu member who bots (ex. JJPowerShot) so we can ban them. I am sure that this also happened in Etnica Union, that you have caught some botters in the union and you banned them.

When you claimed that "When Etnica union came back, they didn't support us at all either, they were all very negative to us and said we will fail," I would like to tell you that some of your union members did claim the same thing to Ninjitsuian legits. people in Etnica Union didn't support us, especially in terms of the playing style, and said we will fail.

(Made mistake on Asylum, I take that back.)

When you claimed that Etnica Union betrayed Ninjitsuians, I would like you to elaborate that. I myself respect people who still play by the Avalonian rules. As long as you don't flame on me, I don't flame on you. As long as you want to be friend with me, I'm more than happy to do so.

The only incident that I could think of that caused Ninjitsuians hating Avalonians is that there was a time Avalonians would join Ninjitusian's party to destroy the party by doing the "Pain Quota" trick in town (If you do not know this trick, I am happy to explain this to you.). And it's possible that Ninjitsuians carried this hatred towards Etnica Union (and in this case, Ninjitsuians may have made some generalization from the Avalonian legits in the dead Avalon Union to the Avalonian legits in the new Etnica Union).

---------------------

Regarding to the last paragraph of your reply, if you manage to rebuild a whole Avalonian legit union, then I will sincerely say that's great. According to Rev6.com, Etnica Union currently has 7 guilds, with a maximum capacity of 350 members. If you claim that you have recruited over 200 new and old legit people in a few weeks (with the assumption that small number of them are actually the "old" Avalonian legits), then that means about half of the Etnica Union population are the new people.

There was a chronological flaw when you claimed that "Don't tell me it isn't possible [to build a Avalonian Union]". I will claim that it was nearly impossible to build a legit union back in Fall 2009 by the following induction.

As you have read on the top of this post, Ninjitsu Union disbanded due to the inactivity of all guilds within the union. Clearly, we know that Avalonian rules are more strict than Ninjitsuian rules. So if people were not satisfied with the restraint of Ninjitsuian rules, then they also were not satisfied with the restraint of the Avalonian rules, especially in a small population (unlike the old times when there were BHA, Avalon, Blade, Fable Family, and Overkill at the same time).

Now, today, I would say it's possible to rebuild Avalonian legit union. What caused the people to return, I do not know. Maybe it's the Legend V, or maybe not. But whether the rebuild will be successful or not, we will have to wait further, and time will tell. But in any case, you claimed in your reply that you understood our situation of allowing partying with bots so that the Ninjitsuians can stay alive.

---------------------

The other day, YourAngel has a conversation with Neo31100. Neo31100 claimed the assumption that Ninjitsuians will eventually turn bot, and YourAngel told Neo31100 that his guild members might turn out to be the same thing. However, YourAngel has raised an abductive argument:

YourAngel asked Neo31100 that in case if one day some Neo31100's guild members become non-Avalonians (not necessary mean "bots"), would Neo31100 rather want these people to join a bot guild or Ninjitsu guild?

This is the abductive question that Neo31100 could not answer.

---------------------

(Notice: Throughout this entire post, I did not flame or at least did not intend to flame anyone, but to clarify the current situation on the Venus server. And I would like the same respect.)

Terry

[Kelvv]

Sad to even have seen SD in that uni... Too bad the original leaders gave it away. If cels was still the leader it would never have happened.. i think snow woulda disbanded it too xD. Also at Terry if you belive all those high lvls in Ninshitsu reached 100 or w/e they are i have to call u an idiot. Just call urself a bot guild like the rest of ur uni etc and move on.

[mike2007]

list of bots and other unlegits currently STILL in ninjitsu:
Lord_Boromir
Big_Dady
nevod03
HerbyNL
L34F
Spiritking

and lets not forget Agamotto who traded his account with a botted 100 bow that was allowed to stay in ninjitsu on both accounts (r u fuckin seriuos? u bet i am.) for some time under YA's leadership.

terry i lost all respect for u the day the ninjas allowed partying for bots and u stayed in. even hito has said he wished he had disbanded the guild instead of giving it to YA bcus of wut she did with it.

[IceCrash]

guys, those times were like war

rules change.. in order to survive


i know it's a wierd analogy, just wanted to show my point


anywayz, old days were interesting lol

[Terrence]

Also at Terry if you belive all those high lvls in Ninshitsu reached 100 or w/e they are i have to call u an idiot. Just call urself a bot guild like the rest of ur uni etc and move on.

Your statement has no supporting reasons. Do not give me any personal assumption as your reasons, because you know they are not generally valid. I myself is currently level 95, 5 levels away from level 100, I play by the Ninjitsuian rules. So are you going to accuse me of using 3rd party program? Do some research...

That's an argument from personal incredulity, it's pretty hasty generalized.

list of bots and other unlegits currently STILL in ninjitsu:
Lord_Boromir
Big_Dady
nevod03
HerbyNL
L34F
Spiritking

and lets not forget Agamotto who traded his account with a botted 100 bow that was allowed to stay in ninjitsu on both accounts (r u fuckin seriuos? u bet i am.) for some time under YA's leadership.

terry i lost all respect for u the day the ninjas allowed partying for bots and u stayed in. even hito has said he wished he had disbanded the guild instead of giving it to YA bcus of wut she did with it.

If you want to go by the Avalonian rules, then screenshots are the best evidence. And I am curious of where are your sources of claiming these 6 people as bots (as in using 3rd party program), especially when you do not play the game.

Regarding to Agamotto's and the other account (or Bloodstone exchange with Codename47), those were banned.

(I have made a mistake about Asylum, I take that back.)

While Ninjitsuians may have contradiction in the past which are now rectified, Etnica still has contradiction that may have not been rectified. The following people who were Ninjitsu guild members in the past are still in Etnica Union (recall that Ninjitsu allowed "partying with bots" since August 2009):

- donkyle left Ninjtsu April 3, 2010
- Kuehlschrank left Ninjitsu December 6, 2009
- DiFFeReNTMaN left Ninjitsu January 13, 2010
- CleX left Ninjitsu March 26, 2009
- _Serenity_ left Ninjitsu January 24, 2010

-------------------------

Back in last year, Ninjitsuian argument was that we want to allow partying with bots in order to survive. Avalonian argument was that they rather want us to solo or quit SRO with pride than partying with bots. One thing I would like to point out is: Rather I want to quit SRO or keep playing SRO, that's nobody's business. I play whenever I want, I do not have to ask Avalonians for that.

I already explained the reason of "partying with bots" in my last post. Even Dark Ashelin claimed the understanding of our situation.

-------------------------

It is Jehuty who handed to guild to someone else. It is Jehuty who gave up the guild when Ninjitsu was almost dead. It is Jehuty who saw the changes of Ninjitsu under the leader of YourAngel. It is Jehuty who allowed us to make this change because Jehuty claimed that this is not his guild anymore. If Jehuty still care about the guild even though he quitted, then he should have disbanded the guild in the first place instead of handing the leadership to YourAngel. Even though Jehuty has no right to adjusting the guild after he quit, we did inform him about this change before our actions. YourAngel and I both informed him via Xfire. Jehuty didn't care about the change because he said Ninjitsu is not his guild anymore. Therefore, he has absolutely no right to say that we ruined his guild.

That's a hypocrite right there. Yes, I call Jehuty a hypocrite because he contradicts his original decision.

-------------------------

And if any of you reply, give me some empirical supporting reasons for your arguments. Statements like "if you belive all those high lvls in Ninshitsu reached 100 or w/e they are i have to call u an idiot" does not tell anyone a single thing because it's a personal bias, which does not prove any point of your arguments. And if you make a claim, consider where are the sources of your claim from. If you just hear from someone else, do some research, learn some more for yourself. If your personal assumptions are still from the 1970s, then I would like to remind you that today is 2010.

And for the people who are not currently playing on Venus, you have limited knowledge on the current situation of Venus.

This argument was supposed to appear a year ago, but I kept it until I gathered enough empirical information to throw at people.

I started the "third-type player" argument with Oyukiyo when I was in BHA and the union was polarized with the Avalon rules. Two years later today, I am not afraid to start another argument because I have sufficient information about our actions and sufficient contradictions to Etnica's actions. And I sense a polarization when old-school legits came back and joined Ninjitsu Union.

[Guardia]

The term that suits u : If we cant beat them, join them.

When we were still playing, that's the term that those botters used. Plenty of botters turned to or at least try to play legitly alongside legits. Nowadays it's the other way around. Yeah, u can have 2-3 pages full of texts to justify ur actions but in the end, u're on the same side of those botters. Venus legits started with only 1 party, remember that. When u start to bend the rules, u've already lost and joining the bot union; the same union we fought till we stop playing is the only choice u have. But still, ppl will remember what u did in the beginning and the end, not in the middle. In the end, u're in a bot union. Supporting them, playing with them, fought for them. That's a fact. Next time, if there is a next time, try make a new guild before doing these actions-to-survive decisions. New guild names wont drag the old guild names into whatever mess they're in. Ninjitsu was a part of a legit movement in Venus. Ninjitsu was a part of the legit awesomeness. Now, Ninjitsu was a part of among the biggest bot union in venus. U guys doesnt seem to care much about the name, why? Because u're not the core players that build the guild.

[PR0METHEUS]

The term that suits u : If we cant beat them, join them.

When we were still playing, that's the term that those botters used. Plenty of botters turned to or at least try to play legitly alongside legits. Nowadays it's the other way around. Yeah, u can have 2-3 pages full of texts to justify ur actions but in the end, u're on the same side of those botters. Venus legits started with only 1 party, remember that. When u start to bend the rules, u've already lost and joining the bot union; the same union we fought till we stop playing is the only choice u have. But still, ppl will remember what u did in the beginning and the end, not in the middle. In the end, u're in a bot union. Supporting them, playing with them, fought for them. That's a fact. Next time, if there is a next time, try make a new guild before doing these actions-to-survive decisions. New guild names wont drag the old guild names into whatever mess they're in. Ninjitsu was a part of a legit movement in Venus. Ninjitsu was a part of the legit awesomeness. Now, Ninjitsu was a part of among the biggest bot union in venus. U guys doesnt seem to care much about the name, why? Because u're not the core players that build the guild.

I couldn't agree more Guardia. I'll never understand these 'kinda in the middle' legits. The ones who play their character legitly, but play and party with bots, bot guilds, bot unions. All they're really doing is supporting the botters, helping botters build a big strong union or two.

I think if a legit guild stayed legit, only played with other legit guilds, more people would see that it's working. More people would join them. It seemed to work well for Avalon and the rest of the guilds in their unions

[Terrence]

Guardia,

Now we are discussing the philosophy of playing the game.

Clearly, what is called legit in Venus (Avalonian style) is different from what is called legit in other servers (Ninjitsuian style), and what is called bot in Venus is different from what is called bot in Joymax's definition. When Ninjitsu was in BHA and about to go to Avalon Union, my immediate thought was "We are going to the military style." And right before Avalon Union fell apart, you and other Avalon guild members know very well that most guilds in Avalon Union (Odyssey, CosaNostra, Fable, DragonHeart, Ninjitsu, SuddenDeath, with 2 others ThePhoenix and Net_Warriors) moved to Ninjitsu SuddenDeath Alliance because of the "active vs. inactive" competition in the Avalon Union. And if people don't remember, this was before anyone who raised the "partying with bots" discussion. I myself is playing an online game, not playing for a side. It could be the case that when I first start a character on Venus, I could have picked neither sides.

In Avalonians' eyes, the negation of Avalonians are bots. It even got to a point where when the 9th rule of Avalon was passed, a person can be categorized as a bot even if he or she did not use 3rd party program, did not party with non-whitelisted, and did not do all other illegal activities. And my theory two years ago logically prove (same as a deductive proof in academic fields) that non-Avalonians are not necessarily bots, and that proof is still in the BHA private forum on SRF.

When you claimed that "the same union we fought till we stop playing is the only choice u have," again, as I stated in my previous post, that fact that I stop or continue to play the game is none of anybody's business. Definitely, stop playing the game is not the only choice I have. You seems to still in the Avalonian argument that you rather us to quit with pride and reputation than us continue to play the game. This pride, and reputation, along with the "inactive vs. active" made Avalon Union fell apart. Do not even blame us for making Avalon fell apart unless you have a good chronological reason.

When Ninjitsu was in a bot union, we indeed party with them. When it comes to the "fought for them" part, I would like to tell you the historical status that Etnica Union was too inactive to even participate in fortress war (Notice I did not say "win" the fortress war). Assuming even if we did fight for them, logically, all we were fighting against were other bots in other bot unions, not Avalonian legits. So be clear on that.

Please ask any of the current or historical Ninjitsu members to find out whether I'm the core player that build Ninjitsu. And yes, I said "build". I stayed in Ninjitsu longer than Jehuty and YourAngel combined.

We don't seem to care much about the [guild] name, why? I explained already, I don't play the game for the fame, reputation, or war, which made Avalon fell apart because the military Avalonians are so ingrained to this philosophy.

Every large controversial issues have a lemma or a most basic axiom based on personal perspective that cannot be broken down to other sub-lemmas and axioms. And this perspective is the lemma that divided the legits into Avalonians and Ninjitsuians.

Whether Etnica Union is working or not, we will have a long time to observe. If anyone cares about Etnica Union, please don't just sit here, go back to the game and play.

[chickenfeather]

A server that is run under Avalonian rules will lead to a largely bot hostile server. A server that is run under Ninjistuian rules will lead to a largely bot friendly server.

The Avalonian definition of legit is one way to have a long term legit community. Anything else indirectly or directly helps bots in some way. It may be tough for those who have bot tendencies, but it's really easy for a real legit player.

That is the entire point, to make it hard for people to bot or play with bots. If you really feel like you need to party with a bot instead of a real player, then go to another server.

You seem to think that Ninjitsu is holding strong as a "legit" guild while immersing itself with bots, allying with them and helping them. It's hypocritical to say the least and it's a slippery slope to becoming a full fledged bot guild. How long can Ninjitsu keep this facade up before giving up?

[Terrence]

chickenfeather,

If the point is to make it hard for people to bot or play with bots, then I think you, as an Avalonian, need to work harder on that. Avalon has been doing that since the beginning. Sure, they made it hard for people to bot or play with bots. Does that solve the problem when they went the military style and fell apart? Definitely not.

If I really feel like I need to party with a bot instead of a real player, I do not have to go another server. The relation of Venus and Avalonians are convention or social form. I am definitely not required to go another server in order to do so action. Whether you like it or not, that's an expression.

I did not say or intend to imply Ninjitsu is holding strong as a "legit" guild while immersing itself with bots, and I don't know whether you referring "legit" as Ninjitsuians or Avalonians. Whether if old-school Avalonian legits decide to go with the Avalonian or Ninjitsuian style, it's up to them, as we have former Avalon guild members in Ninjitsu right now. So there's no slippery slope or hypocritical point.

How long can Ninjitsu keep this facade up before giving up? Let me ask you, giving up on what? We do not have any people that are against with. You, the Etnica people, are against other people. We, the Ninjitsuians, have nobody to go against with. We have nothing to give up.

Referring back to Guardia's phrase "If we cant beat them, join them," then we will talk about Fly and Nightbloom's situation, especially with the audio clip that Nightbloom claimed her ability with the script. Although I am not the only one and although "two wrong does not make a right," they did it and experienced it. Whether they understand our situation or not, I don't know, but they know and they understand their situation in the past.

[Guardia]

First of all, u need to know the fact. Avalon fell apart not because of you ninjitsuan (nobody said that, so stop thinking u play any role in it), it's because most of us just simply stop playing. Ppl do get tired. As for myself, i stop playing months before the last fort war. It's the tomb, the sp farming, the traffic that killed it. Not because of the so called military style rules. Since we're talking about the rules, which rules kept the legits together for 2 years. Which rules that kept the highest standard of legitly playing a game for 2 years? Does ur bot friendly rules keep any freakin legits to stay playing? Obviously no. U can see the result right now. And no, I dont mean the bot friendly legits.

Clearly, what is called legit in Venus (Avalonian style) is different from what is called legit in other servers (Ninjitsuian style)

Yes, that's what made venus different from other server. If you want to have the same bot friendly experience, u shouldnt have started in venus at the first place. U sucking all the juices yet u saying u dont like the fruits. The fact that u continue playing or quit is everyone else business when u're in position of power. When u have a direct implication to either maintaining the definition of legits, maintaining the "i dont play with bots to discourage them to cheat in a game" mentality or just turn it into every other server where legits and botters playing alongside each other happily. U doesnt seem to get the point of playing in venus as legits. We played in venus because we're tired and sick of botters. We have something to fight for. U played just to have fun from what we fought for. Stop being selfish, every single one of legits in venus are as important as the ones who started it. The huge movement need ppl to carry on the job. Stop thinking it died because of the internal politicking or whatever. We just simply stop playing. Too bad, none of our successor can carry on to be a leader, all of them are too busy to fight to play / pt with botters. U're one of them.

Did u realize none of my sentences use "Avalon"? I refer venus legits as venus legits. If u still dont get the point, u either dont know me that well, or ur trying too hard to justify ur actions. Trust me, u dont need to. We already know what u did, u know what u did, just accept the fact that most of us dont like it. As easy as that.

Edit :

especially with the audio clip that Nightbloom claimed her ability with the script

Again, u just dont understand do u? We play not because of them, we play because we want a bot free server. Everyone started fresh, including them. What everyone did on other server is their own business and it doesnt effect us. U just cant simply get it over with because u think we all came because of them. We came because of what they're trying to do. We achieve our target for 2 years. That's a long time in MMORPG. Most of the ppl who felt sad or angry because of the incident came for the wrong reason. They think both of them are gods. Including u since u still bring up the botting past of nb.

[Terrence]

First of all, u need to know the fact. Avalon fell apart not because of you ninjitsuan (nobody said that, so stop thinking u play any role in it), it's because most of us just simply stop playing. Ppl do get tired. As for myself, i stop playing months before the last fort war. It's the tomb, the sp farming, the traffic that killed it. Not because of the so called military style rules. Since we're talking about the rules, which rules kept the legits together for 2 years. Which rules that kept the highest standard of legitly playing a game for 2 years? Does ur bot friendly rules keep any freakin legits to stay playing? Obviously no. U can see the result right now. And no, I dont mean the bot friendly legits.

Great dear, then it's the people in Avalon Union stopped or the Avalonians stopped playing for whatever reasons. Your 1st rhetorical question simply due to the fact that Avalon Union was there for two years. If Ninjitsu still exists for another year (it's been a year already), then frankly, I'll shut you up. Your 2nd rhetorical question is based on the fact that it contain the most number of conditions to stay Avalonians. I'll now clarify your 3rd question, which is not rhetorical. If Ninjitsuian rules attract Avalonians to join Ninjitsu, those Avalonians become Ninjitsuians by definition. So the word "legit" in your 3rd question must refer to Ninjitsuians. And the answer to that question, to your surprise, is yes. We kept Ninjitsuians to stay playing. I can see the result right now, especially in game. You, on the other hand, do not, simply because you do not even play the game anymore.

Oh, and what's so different from Etnica Union containing former Ninjitsu members right now? I mean the ones who joined, stayed, and played in Ninjitsu long after the "partying with bots" rule was accepted.

Yes, that's what made venus different from other server. If you want to have the same bot friendly experience, u shouldnt have started in venus at the first place. U sucking all the juices yet u saying u dont like the fruits. The fact that u continue playing or quit is everyone else business when u're in position of power.

Again, for the third time, you have absolutely no right in real life to tell me which server to go play. Whichever server I start to play SRO, it's none of your business. Just because people "want" Venus to be Avalonians does not simply mean they have the right to tell the non-Avalonians to stop joining Venus. Of course you can ask, but you do not have the right to tell. I would like you to write a paper on this moral question. You have the right or you do not have the right to tell me where and when to play or quit?

To go with your analogy with the fruits and the juices. I sucked all the juices, I liked the fruits. And that's the past. The fruits are not there because I sucked all the juices.

U doesnt seem to get the point of playing in venus as legits. We played in venus because we're tired and sick of botters. We have something to fight for. U played just to have fun from what we fought for. Stop being selfish, every single one of legits in venus are as important as the ones who started it.

You played in Venus because you're tired and sick of botters. And it could be the case that I played Venus simply out of randomness, that there are twenty to thirty servers out there and I picked Venus. You have the morality to play the game and fight for something, I have different morality to play the game. That's why I only went to fortress war once when I was in Avalon and never went again. That's why I never went to Samarkand to PVP when Avalon people asked people to go in the union chat. And if that's what you're looking for in Avalonian legits, then the definition of Avalonian legits are not only the conditions stated in the Avalonian rules, but it also involves the morality of the Avalon Union.

(For the rest of the people out there, the statement "If you just want to level, then use a bot, be a botter." is flawed.)

Of course I definitely had fun from what you fought for. I, as well as other Ninjitsuians, also had fun from what we are currently having. We have never been as united as before within a guild.

The huge movement need ppl to carry on the job. Stop thinking it died because of the internal politicking or whatever. We just simply stop playing. Too bad, none of our successor can carry on to be a leader, all of them are too busy to fight to play / pt with botters. U're one of them.

So simply you mean that you all stopped playing and you are expecting me to carry your morality of playing the game. I explained it on the top, and I am not about to do that as I have my own morality.

Did u realize none of my sentences use "Avalon"? I refer venus legits as venus legits. If u still dont get the point.

I use Avalonians as in the people who are still following the Avalonian rules, for example, Etnica Union. It does not necessary mean the people who are or were in Avalon Union. Now you get the point?

Again, u just dont understand do u? We play not because of them, we play because we want a bot free server. Everyone started fresh, including them. What everyone did on other server is their own business and it doesnt effect us. U just cant simply get it over with because u think we all came because of them. We came because of what they're trying to do. We achieve our target for 2 years. That's a long time in MMORPG. Most of the ppl who felt sad or angry because of the incident came for the wrong reason. They think both of them are gods. Including u since u still bring up the botting past of nb.

I don't know where you get all these from. Maybe it is you that are trying too hard to justify yourself.

All I am referring is to relate your quote "If we cant beat them, join them," with Fly and Nightbloom's case. You and I agree that every reformed botters entitle a second chance. I know (or at least I believe) that they never botted on Venus. All I am saying is that I am not the only one to experience that quote and agree that quote. And legits who used 3rd party program and then decided to reroll went through the experience of this quote. This quoted statement does not have a right or wrong answer. You can write a stack of paper on disagreeing this statement, and so can I to write the opposite view point. Again, this is another moral question, even there are discussion in real life.

[TheDrop]

ahhh, what would venus be without the drama

[Guardia]

This

To go with your analogy with the fruits and the juices. I sucked all the juices, I liked the fruits. And that's the past. The fruits are not there because I sucked all the juices.

and this

I have different morality to play the game. That's why I only went to fortress war once when I was in Avalon and never went again. That's why I never went to Samarkand to PVP when Avalon people asked people to go in the union chat.

Now I know who u really are, that's enough for me. U can continue doing whatever u want. I dont care anymore.

To other legits who're still playing, have fun. And no, I dont mean the bot friendly legits.

[DeputyDan]

Oh wow. reading this whole thing, well, WOW.


Terry, Gaurdia, You guys will never see eye to eye, no matter how many ways you both try to show each other your opinions and thoughts.

Agree to Disagree.

I played Venus because when I downloaded the game, the name Venus looked cool to me. It was random. I did not, and still do not bot. I did not even know what that was until I started playing with others after joining Odysey.

I play this game from my living room, looking at my computer screen, making conversation with other people, some half way around the world, and play.

Some of the prople I met in this game played legit, and some botted.

Who am I to care? All I need to care about is my game, my computer, my charachter, my friends I made, and nothing else.

Gaurdia, I can not speak of you in any way other than you have a good bard guide. I was not one of your friends, and I never played with you ingame.

Terry, you on the other hand, I have. And you as well as many others, play this game to play and socialize. Just like most people in the world.

I left Venus because I am at home in my own living room playing a game, and did not "HAVE" to do anything that some guy, who knows where from, with a charachter named "Fly", tells me to do it a certain way.

Yes Gaurdia, I left Venus for one reason and one reason only, I do not agree with a dictatorship in real life, or even in a fantasy life such as this game is.

Play the game, Don't play the game, who cares. I still play this game........do you? From what I understand, you don't. That was "your" choice, not anyone elses. Let Terry and those who play with Terry play as they like. Who cares "how" they play, let them play thier own game, and you play yours.

All of this is just words typed on a screen, pixels as some would say, so here is the main and undieing question to all..........


WHO CARES?


Just play or don't play.

[hypocrisy_]

god dam everyone is but hurt in this topic

venus was like a big table full or emo kids and preps both fighting for the table cuz they hate each other when one of the groups could have just moved to another table aka another game instead of wasting time trying to get the other out. Avalon union wasnt even really legit either. they would scam and had another person with a lot of gold bots outside of their union to provide them with shit too. all of that i heard from an ex-avalon guild member.

[PR0METHEUS]

Yes... Avalon was such a "Military style" guild... So much so that while I was in Avalon, for at least half a year, Fly, nightbloom, and pretty much everyone else in the guild left me alone. Sure they all chatted with me, but they left me alone to do my own thing. My own thing pretty much consisted of solo grinding and stalling though.

They never once told me how to play. Regardless of what happened in other servers, they (and everyone else who took part in it) did a great job making Venus what it was back then. It was so much different than any other server. It's kind of a shame to see it change actually.

[IceCrash]

cmon guys, don't bs me, like it or not, their system did work efficiently!

But, like that chess player, he lost to a machine after 3 hours of playing, get my analogy?

Glad they moved on. Wouldn't mind being able to play in Venus tho, afterall, it was the last community i was in, and it was nice (it's just like nowadays shit, it's a manipulative game, but it works lol, mess with the wrong people, and u're fawked lol)

[Guardia]

god dam everyone is but hurt in this topic

venus was like a big table full or emo kids and preps both fighting for the table cuz they hate each other when one of the groups could have just moved to another table aka another game instead of wasting time trying to get the other out. Avalon union wasnt even really legit either. they would scam and had another person with a lot of gold bots outside of their union to provide them with shit too. all of that i heard from an ex-avalon guild member.

This is a big lie. Please provide ur evidence or proof if you are accusing. I'm always broke when i was playing. If there's such things as gold bot supplier, i would've known. And most of the player in the union doesnt have godly gears before.

[Terrence]

PR0METHEUS,

I totally agree with you. Everyone left me alone to do my own thing. Including when they asked people to go fortress war or asked people to go to Samarkand South to PVP against the bots, they left me to do my own thing, as long as I did not respond. They also never told me how to play the game.

The military style comes from the morality of playing the game. They joined Venus because they are tired and sick of botters. I, on the other hand, joined Venus due to simple probability of choosing the server. They had something that they felt they needed to fight for. I, on the other hand, do not due to my morality of playing the game. Others may view this difference as activism versus passivism during the Avalon Union period, and after that period, it becomes the purpose of playing the game, which nobody, even in real life, has the right to tell others.

[Balderdash]

Once you're a bot guild it's kinda hard to recover from that. Many guilds stayed legit the whole time and never joined Legacy Union.

First of all, thank you for not flaming. I appreciate it a lot.

I assume you consider us bot guild because either 1) the guild allows partying with non-whitelisted, or 2) we joined Legacy Union resulting in a generalization that we are a bot guild due to others in the union are also bot guilds.

Two years ago back in BlackHand Alliance, I coined the term "third-type players" in my thesis argument to the 9th rule of Avalon. Two years later today, this thesis becomes reality. We are the third-type players. Other servers except Venus are Ninjitsually legit (and some of you will argue our usage of the word "legit" in this content); Venus was founded by Avalonian legits. I'm not saying whether Ninjitsual legits is bad or a better choice, but some old-school players who returned have chosen this route.

I haven't posted in this forum for a while, and the discussion between Oyukiyo and me was my longest so far.

It's funny that Avalon, despite being gone from SRO for nearly a year now, is upheld as being the epitome, even militantly so, of legitness. Im proud that I was part of that movement and Im proud that the name Avalon stands for what people like you consider to be an unattainable level of legit.

While it is true that Avalon founded Venus, it was the Confed that set a standard for what "legit" means on that server. You don't care to conform to that standard, fine. You can't turn around then and say you are being unfairly judged by a system you acknowledge was in place, even in place before your arrival. You will be judged by it. Everyone who claims to be legit will be held against the rules that the Confed set in place.

<<Insert wall of LOLs here>>

I <3 Guardia and all of old Avalon that has stayed legit and who still, even in small ways, fight the good fight. Right is right, even in a video game. I will say I enjoy Aion and it's lack of botters. SRO is broken and you gotta be some kind of self flagellate to play it.

[Shadow]

the epitome of legitness

*cough* My system doesn't get like... bogged down.



Besides, the Cu.. Confederation just caused shitloads of bullshit. Best times in Venus were those before the confederation.