Comprehensive Rogue Guide [Work.In.Progress.]

[Etrad]

So has any rogue with cleric sub tried out Recovery Division yet? Cause healing cycle's duration is too damn short to be useful in a long battle (PVP/boss/party mob), and if thats the only useful battle-use healing skill to get, then I rather take bard as a sub. >_>

yeah you can use recovery division but i'd only choose cleric if you wanted defense.....healing is good and stuff but i'd rather take less damage than rely on my health coming back in time

bard for speed which is all well and good....

Not really...recovery divison lasts 300secs (5mins) and at the 80 cap lvl, heals like 1.1k+ each time, which is almost as good as autopot.

Bless is good, but the cooldown time is like 2-3mins? Which means I rather save it for special occasions besides a giant spawn (like blader's +def skill, although the cooldown time is only 1min). So if RD wasn't usable on yourself, I would consider cleric sub quite useless actually. >_>

[XemnasXD]

So has any rogue with cleric sub tried out Recovery Division yet? Cause healing cycle's duration is too damn short to be useful in a long battle (PVP/boss/party mob), and if thats the only useful battle-use healing skill to get, then I rather take bard as a sub. >_>

yeah you can use recovery division but i'd only choose cleric if you wanted defense.....healing is good and stuff but i'd rather take less damage than rely on my health coming back in time

bard for speed which is all well and good....

Not really...recovery divison lasts 300secs (5mins) and at the 80 cap lvl, heals like 1.1k+ each time, which is almost as good as autopot.

Bless is good, but the cooldown time is like 2-3mins? Which means I rather save it for special occasions besides a giant spawn (like blader's +def skill, although the cooldown time is only 1min). So if RD wasn't usable on yourself, I would consider cleric sub quite useless actually. >_>

i think in terms of PvP all the time so from my point of view id cast bless and thered be 45 sec of great def while i deal out amazing damage and laugh.....but i can see why you value recovery divison

[hitokiri]

Very nice guide. Just so you know your dagger/xbow pics are switched for the recommended stats. Not at all a big deal, but i guess every bit helps haha.

I do Rogue/Bard. March and Noise are reason enough for me to use it.

And a question. I saw in the Clon3 on Alps vid, the guy made himself look like a thief, but then seemed to switch back when he used a skill. Does this go for only that skill or will monster masks also do it? I always have to deactivate the monster mask by right clicking to turn it off, so im just curious.

[vanom]

i think in terms of PvP all the time so from my point of view id cast bless and thered be 45 sec of great def while i deal out amazing damage and laugh.....but i can see why you value recovery divison

lol yea. just let me tell you the way, how I pvp a eu char, which is using that 45 secs def increase buff. if i see he casts that buff, i use grasswalk or run around him, so he cannot attack me. as soon as the buff disappears, i kick his ass. you know, that's the point, where I laugh.
dude, you're fighting against humans, ie flexible opponents, not some dumb cpu controlled mobs.

[XemnasXD]

i think in terms of PvP all the time so from my point of view id cast bless and thered be 45 sec of great def while i deal out amazing damage and laugh.....but i can see why you value recovery divison

lol yea. just let me tell you the way, how I pvp a eu char, which is using that 45 secs def increase buff. if i see he casts that buff, i use grasswalk or run around him, so he can't attack me. as soon as the buff disappears, i kick his ass. you know, that's the point, where I laugh.
dude, you're fighting against humans, ie flexible opponents, not some dumb cpu controlled mobs.

Wow you forgot a couple really important things but basically just one....IM A F*CKING ROGUE!

first of all IF you see me coming im not doing my job right

Secondly I buff then cast then stealth

Thirdly I HAVE THE LONGEST RANGE IN THE GAME! If you Run rest assured i will snipe the shit out of you with no mercy. If you have the balls to come back rest assured I will slash the shit out of you with no mercy.

Lastly idc what anyone says in PvP if your my lvl and i get the first hit your done for end of the story.

So there goes your great big battle plan...i wonder if that makes you a dumb cpu controlled mob or just another victim......you decide

[vanom]

Wow you forgot a couple really important things but basically just one....IM A F*CKING ROGUE!

first of all IF you see me coming im not doing my job right

Secondly I buff then cast then stealth

Thirdly I HAVE THE LONGEST RANGE IN THE GAME! If you Run rest assured i will snipe the shit out of you with no mercy. If you have the balls to come back rest assured I will slash the shit out of you with no mercy.

Lastly idc what anyone says in PvP if your my lvl and i get the first hit your done for end of the story.

So there goes your great big battle plan...i wonder if that makes you a dumb cpu controlled mob or just another victim......you decide

as i can see, you have received a very good education. grats on that, your parents did a great job. im planning a rouge myself, therefore im so concerned about different fighting styles/ways of getting the opponets advantage to the minimum. if this is the only way you can express yourself, you reduce your own (perhaps good) tactics to nothing more but shit. think about that.

[XemnasXD]

Wow you forgot a couple really important things but basically just one....IM A F*CKING ROGUE!

first of all IF you see me coming im not doing my job right

Secondly I buff then cast then stealth

Thirdly I HAVE THE LONGEST RANGE IN THE GAME! If you Run rest assured i will snipe the shit out of you with no mercy. If you have the balls to come back rest assured I will slash the shit out of you with no mercy.

Lastly idc what anyone says in PvP if your my lvl and i get the first hit your done for end of the story.

So there goes your great big battle plan...i wonder if that makes you a dumb cpu controlled mob or just another victim......you decide

as i can see, you have received a very good education. grats on that, your parents did a great job. im planning a rouge myself, therefore im so concerned about different fighting styles/ways of getting the opponets advantage to the minimum. if this is the only way you can express yourself, you reduce your own (perhaps good) tactics to nothing more but shit. think about that.

If i came off hostile its because you decided it would be best to open off your statement by laughing at me. I don't like that at all especially since this is my guide and my topic and you a new user have the audacity to come here and laugh at an opinion i expressed.

Then you continue this insult by not only berating my build but also by questioning my intelligence when you decided to revolutionize my way of think by telling ME that i wasn't fighting against npc's. Im not stupid you twat i know exactly what im talking about and if i was wrong about anything i've said i'll take it back and apologize but don't think your going to make a response to me like that and get off scott free. Now you know how i deal with ppl who have offended me. Next time if you don't act like such a pretentious git i'll have a better phrased response for you....

if there is a next time, come to me willing to receive information as someone who doesn't know said info and i'll treat you with respect. Come to me pretending like you know better about something that you clearly have no knowledge of and you'll get exactly what you got. There a other ways you could've expressed your opinion without coming off like a know-it-all, and an ignorant know-it-all at that.

[vanom]

1st: i joined this forum last year in april. at that time, i played sro already for months. you joined this forum january this year.

2nd: i got a lvl 80 full str glaive, lvl 74 full int s/s and a lvl 59 full str bow all with pimped gears. i don't think im a "new" user and i also got much experience in pvp. so yes, i really think that i have more experience with the whole game and that i fought more pvp fights than you.

btw: i did not laugh at you, but only laughing, like u wrote it too in ur previous thread.

now tell me something about your characters you've played already and great experience in pvp.

ps: so who is the new user here? i think, you overestimate yourself highly.

[XemnasXD]

1st: i joined this forum last year in april. at that time, i played sro already for months. you joined this forum january this year.

2nd: i got a lvl 80 full str glaive, lvl 74 full int s/s and a lvl 59 full str bow all with pimped gears. i don't think im a "new" user and i also got much experience in pvp. so yes, i really think that i have more experience with the whole game and that i fought more pvp fights than you.

btw: i did not laugh at you, but only laughing, like u wrote it too in ur previous thread.

now tell me something about your characters you've played already and great experience in pvp.

ps: so who is the new user here? i think, you overestimate yourself highly.

Am i about to get into a debate with you over whose played more..no Sorry i called you a new user at first glance it looked like it said 2007 but that should only mean i should expect a better response from you. It was wrong of me to measure your post by your activity here but nevertheless i took your post as both insulting and pretentious. IF you say you weren't laughing at me i'll buy that but realize that you only made me believe your post was an insult by attempting to reprimand me in the end. As far as experience i think you who claim to have played this game long enough should know that just because your have high lvl characters doesn't mean you have more experience, thats a given for about 80% of sro players.

Overestimate? No i merely claim to know what im talking about and attempt to back it up. As you surely have read earlier i can see when i make mistakes. I'm clearly not overestimating myself since i came up with a counter measure to your stated tactics at first glance, measure which you have yet to rebuke so i can safely assume you can't. This is my guide an my topic. If you want to get into an argument about how to deal with rogues in pvp i'd be glad to partake but i dislike your approach, as i said earlier if your intent was so constructive you should have made a more constructive post.

If you have anything else to say about this then you being a user here for over a year should know to take it into PMs because this is Off Topic and i don't need it mucking up my thread.

Kthxbai

[vanom]

im not interested into discussing with you about that topic. im only interested in pvp-tactics, since, like i said before, im planning to make a rouge myself..

[XemnasXD]

If you want to get into an argument about how to deal with rogues in pvp i'd be glad to partake

i don't like to repeat myself but it appears that by now we should be on the same page...so discuss tactics instead of telling me your about to discuss them. Im waiting for your counter measure....

[vanom]

since i don't know, how much dam a lvl 80 fully farmed rouge would do on me, i can't say much about the first hit thing. the only high lvl eu char i fought so far was a warrior, lvl 79. all i can say is, if he casts that 45secs warrior buff (+phy defense), i either try to stun him or try to protect myself, till his buff disappears. after it disappears, i kill him within 6 hits.

[Barotix]

since i don't know, how much dam a lvl 80 fully farmed rouge would do on me, i can't say much about the first hit thing. the only high lvl eu char i fought so far was a warrior, lvl 79. all i can say is, if he casts that 45secs warrior buff (+phy defense), i either try to stun him or try to protect myself, till his buff disappears. after it disappears, i kill him within 6 hits.

dude xemnas has a tendancy to pwn people that flame him
NOW GTFO of this GUIDE NOW!

dont ruin a good guide

[elnawawi]

lol yea. just let me tell you the way, how I pvp a eu char, which is using that 45 secs def increase buff. if i see he casts that buff, i use grasswalk or run around him, so he can't attack me. as soon as the buff disappears, i kick his ass. you know, that's the point, where I laugh.
dude, you're fighting against humans, ie flexible opponents, not some dumb cpu controlled mobs.

lol .... in your dreams .. first crossbow have the longest range ever , second dagger have the fastest skill ever .. both have the second greatest damge after wizards ..

Watch lvl 50 archer can't escape from me :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSiS3nh6Bw0And for your guide XemnasXD you can support it with this vedio :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=951zfBr8Mwo
I have a lot of very short vedio of my rogue but I really need a director program to make it a movie because movie maker always stop saving movie and I can't make it a valid file with it ..[/url]

[XemnasXD]

i'll make another update later adding more vids and some skill information if theres enough space but i'll defiantly add those vids thx

[elnawawi]

since i don't know, how much dam a lvl 80 fully farmed rouge would do on me, i can't say much about the first hit thing. the only high lvl eu char i fought so far was a warrior, lvl 79. all i can say is, if he casts that 45secs warrior buff (+phy defense), i either try to stun him or try to protect myself, till his buff disappears. after it disappears, i kill him within 6 hits.

You can calculate the damge a rogue can do on you when you know that lvl 40 rogue kill lvl 44 glavier in 3 hits without crits or zerk .. also you can know that x-bow can do more than 2X damge a pure str bow can do .. I think he can crit with +20 k without sun weapon ..


XemnasXD, what's your lvl now ?
I suggest add a section for pvp tactics and pve tactics .. I can help you in that ..

[vanom]

you can't just compare low lvls and then convey it to higher lvls. one simple example: blader can be killed at lvl 4x, 5x, 6x by glaive. at 80, blader, cannot be killed by full str glaive, period.

concerning avoiding chars using tht 45 secs warrior buff: except warrior using 2h sword, i won't fight them during this time. why? well, why should i? that buff gives them for 45 secs tremendous amount of phys. and mag. defense. so why not wait till his buff disappear. that shouldnt be a problem. try to shoot me with xbow, when im 25m away after 1 secs (grasswalk + some steps). and if you're stunned, i can escape even easier.

in the end, all depends on gears. all u guys've seen are some vids. u might know the lvl of the characters, but not their gears. even a lvl 40 chinese chars with better gears can kill a lvl 44 chinese char.

and btw: i killed with my lvl 59 chinese bow (using npc gears) a lvl 61 xbow with 2 hits. she only could kill me, when she managed to knock me down and then use that hp/defense sacrifising skill. if not, she dies.

but i haven't fought a rouge who uses stealth yet. that might be interesting, esp. con lvl 80.

[Etrad]

try to shoot me with xbow, when im 25m away after 1 secs (grasswalk + some steps).

With the passive maxed for the lvl 80 cap, all xbow attacks have AT LEAST 21m of attacking range. (xbow has a regular range of 18m, not too sure about chinese's bow)

Fast shot/Rapid shot: +15m range = 36m range total (skill damage is 51%, and cooldown time is 0.5s)
Long shot/Distance shot: +7m range = 28m range total (skill damage is 320%, 5s cooldown for each)

I don't have any high lvl chars (highest was like...lvl 45 str glaiver). But if I were in your situation (I cast bless and you run away), I could always use Distance/Long shot right after your first ghostwalk, and spam fast/rapid shot with poison till you decide to stop running (and start attacking), whereby KD + KB will be used.

Against dagger rogues, you are almost certain to die if they were to catch you while in stealth, fully buffed up. They have a passive that adds another 200+ phy.attack while using attacks/skills in stealth. Their attacks are mostly multi-hit combos that can stun/dull (decrease attack speed and movement speed)/bleed (decrease target's phy. and mag. def). In the event that the enemy tries to run away, they can just use scud, which gives them tremendous speed for 15secs (more than enough time for the rogue to kill its target). Rogues were made to kill, not survive. Its not to say that they can't solo in the grinding environment, just that they were tailored to deal damage rather than to soak it up like a warrior (who gets a +phy and + mag def buff, ontop of a hp buff that decreases their damage).

Of course, this is just my theory, so it may not be 100% true.
------------------------------------------------------

In a ranged class vs crossbow battle, its almost always "whoever hits first, wins". All xbow rogues in pvp would always use crossbow extreme (since that is the source of their damage) , so them dying easily is a given. And there is the euro pot delay...so whats so surprising about killing a xbow easily? They weren't made to tank or take damage anyways. The fact that their only stats buffs (extreme and desperate) both take away their defensive capabilities, it would seem natural that they die easily. Using both Recovery Division and Bless Spell (which only lasts for 45secs, with 2-3mins cooldown time?) would help, but it isn't enough.

Killing a rogue (who didn't even bother to use stealth) isn't too hard to accomplishment (Then again, I'm a pvp noob). Even without crossbow extreme, rogues don't get to use defensive buffs such as concentration and ice guard (along with the +parry ratio and phy.def passives), both of which helps to reduce damage taken signicantly. Pot delay + decreased defensive stats = as vulnerable as a wizard without life control, and you know how easy it is to kill a wizard...

[XemnasXD]

try to shoot me with xbow, when im 25m away after 1 secs (grasswalk + some steps).

With the passive maxed for the lvl 80 cap, all xbow attacks have AT LEAST 21m of attacking range. (xbow has a regular range of 18m, not too sure about chinese's bow)

Fast shot/Rapid shot: +15m range = 36m range total (skill damage is 51%, and cooldown time is 0.5s)
Long shot/Distance shot: +7m range = 28m range total (skill damage is 320%, 5s cooldown for each)

I don't have any high lvl chars (highest was like...lvl 45 str glaiver). But if I were in your situation (I cast bless and you run away), I could always use Distance/Long shot right after your first ghostwalk, and spam fast/rapid shot with poison till you decide to stop running (and start attacking), whereby KD + KB will be used.

Against dagger rogues, you are almost certain to die if they were to catch you while in stealth, fully buffed up. They have a passive that adds another 200+ phy.attack while using attacks/skills in stealth. Their attacks are mostly multi-hit combos that can stun/dull (decrease attack speed and movement speed)/bleed (decrease target's phy. and mag. def). In the event that the enemy tries to run away, they can just use scud, which gives them tremendous speed for 15secs (more than enough time for the rogue to kill its target). Rogues were made to kill, not survive. Its not to say that they can't solo in the grinding environment, just that they were tailored to deal damage rather than to soak it up like a warrior (who gets a +phy and + mag def buff, ontop of a hp buff that decreases their damage).

sounds solid

@vanom Pvp doesn't START at lvl 80 it take place all the way theit if your build is ONLY effective against glaivers at lvl 80 then for 79 lvls they'll be getting pwned and i've seen 80 bladers get killed in PvP by glaivers....Were not going to base the effectiveness of a build ONLY at the cap thats just stupid and leaves out a whole arsenel of data. And at yoru gears thing yeah a chinese with great gears can kill a chinese +4 lvls but a Euro with basic NPC gears can take down players 3-7 lvls higher and the gap only increases as you lvl up....after all we've seen lvl 52's kill 64+ ints and hybrids....

[Barotix]

vanom
grrrrrrrr
you lose now gtfo
thx and watch out for teh door it hurts

[vanom]

now i see, you're just a stupid noob. lvl 80 blade killed by lvl 80 full str glaive? yea, if one of them have shitty gears and sosun or just one is a stupid noob like you. i only consider pvp at lvl 80. why? because thats the cap at the moment and serious players want to belong to the best. so stop talking shit, stupid low level noob. get to 80 first and fight some serious players, before you start posting shit over shit. if you don't agree, come to troy and i kick your little ass. now write what you want stupid noobs.

never seen a low lvl noob trying to teach a guy with lvl 80 and lvl 74 characters and high lvl pvp experience how to pvp, just ridiculous. we see eachother, when u reach 80. then you can talk, now it's just shit, period.

[XemnasXD]

now i see, you're just a stupid noob. lvl 80 blade killed by lvl 80 full str glaive? yea, if one of them have shitty gears and sosun or just one is a stupid noob like you. i only consider pvp at lvl 80. why? because thats the cap at the moment and serious players want to belong to the best. so stop talking shit, stupid low level noob. get to 80 first and fight some serious players, before you start posting shit over shit. if you don't agree, come to troy and i kick your little ass. now write what you want stupid noobs.

never seen a low lvl noob trying to teach a guy with lvl 80 and lvl 74 characters and high lvl pvp experience how to pvp, just ridiculous. we see eachother, when u reach 80. then you can talk, now it's just shit, period.

if i made a list of the legits on this forum who have gotten to 80 it would be very small...does that make them all noobs no....clearly that last statement was some lame attempt at a come back...i can tell because of how many times you used the word noob

you know when your PvPing someone and you kick their as over and over again until the only thing they have left to say is "you stupid noob" or "your a noob" or even better "i'll own your noob with my other character noob." At this point in the fight you can walk away smiling knowing that you've reduced your opponent to a shrieking 12 year old that can do nothing but spam the word noob as many times as possible in a single sentence.

This argument has peaked because clearly you've become the aforementioned shrieking child. But its ok because theres still salvation. You can just read this and not respond. Anything you respond to this will probably just be more shrieking child anyway so you'll just make yourself look like an idiot. There is nothing you can respond to this post that will make your side have any sort of comeback whatsoever because clearly you've found yourself...survey says

PWND!!!




serves ya right you little nooblet ^^

[Jstar1]

now i see, you're just a stupid noob. lvl 80 blade killed by lvl 80 full str glaive? yea, if one of them have shitty gears and sosun or just one is a stupid noob like you. i only consider pvp at lvl 80. why? because thats the cap at the moment and serious players want to belong to the best. so stop talking shit, stupid low level noob. get to 80 first and fight some serious players, before you start posting shit over shit. if you don't agree, come to troy and i kick your little ass. now write what you want stupid noobs.

never seen a low lvl noob trying to teach a guy with lvl 80 and lvl 74 characters and high lvl pvp experience how to pvp, just ridiculous. we see eachother, when u reach 80. then you can talk, now it's just shit, period.

if i made a list of the legits on this forum who have gotten to 80 it would be very small...does that make them all noobs no....clearly that last statement was some lame attempt at a come back...i can tell because of how many times you used the word noob

you know when your PvPing someone and you kick their as over and over again until the only thing they have left to say is "you stupid noob" or "your a noob" or even better "i'll own your noob with my other character noob." At this point in the fight you can walk away smiling knowing that you've reduced your opponent to a shrieking 12 year old that can do nothing but spam the word noob as many times as possible in a single sentence.

This argument has peaked because clearly you've become the aforementioned shrieking child. But its ok because theres still salvation. You can just read this and not respond. Anything you respond to this will probably just be more shrieking child anyway so you'll just make yourself look like an idiot. There is nothing you can respond to this post that will make your side have any sort of comeback whatsoever because clearly you've found yourself...survey says

PWND!!!




serves ya right you little nooblet ^^

lol

[MrLonely]

. try to shoot me with xbow, when im 25m away after 1 secs (grasswalk + some steps). and if you're stunned, i can escape even easier.

and btw: i killed with my lvl 59 chinese bow (using npc gears) a lvl 61 xbow with 2 hits. she only could kill me, when she managed to knock me down and then use that hp/defense sacrifising skill. if not, she dies.

but i haven't fought a rouge who uses stealth yet. that might be interesting, esp. con lvl 80.

Well. from my personal experience all I can say is, rogues suck at fair pvp, its not worth to even bother doing that, they will always loose, almost always. So no wonder you killed rogue without xbow extreme. But with stealth and crossbow extreme is where they shine, and that is the meaning of rogue.

Also to people who think cleric is great sub for rogues cause give them def and what not, personally i think we are not meant for tanking, anyway if someone will get close to rogue hes good as gone so we better need bards speed increase to escape or catch up with others, also
at guild wars you rogue can use tag point, so you can maybe run away from us, but not hide lol
.

[XemnasXD]

. try to shoot me with xbow, when im 25m away after 1 secs (grasswalk + some steps). and if you're stunned, i can escape even easier.

and btw: i killed with my lvl 59 chinese bow (using npc gears) a lvl 61 xbow with 2 hits. she only could kill me, when she managed to knock me down and then use that hp/defense sacrifising skill. if not, she dies.

but i haven't fought a rouge who uses stealth yet. that might be interesting, esp. con lvl 80.

Well. from my personal experience all I can say is, rogues suck at fair pvp, its not worth to even bother doing that, they will always loose, almost always. So no wonder you killed rogue without xbow extreme. But with stealth and crossbow extreme is where they shine, and that is the meaning of rogue.

Also to people who think cleric is great sub for rogues cause give them def and what not, personally i think we are not meant for tanking, anyway if someone will get close to rogue hes good as gone so we better need bards speed increase to escape or catch up with others, also
at guild wars you rogue can use tag point, so you can maybe run away from us, but not hide lol
.

depends on what you want froma build i noticed that without bless i can take 2 hits from a wizard my lvl the first one leaves me with only abotu 10-40 hp left so with bless i can take 3 which give me more than enough time to deal with wizard who get the drop on my (excepting if they KB thats annoying) aLso recovery division like someone else pointed out is kind like being able to pot so cleric sub is by no means meant for tanking i think it just lets you last longer in pvp and recovery division is great for dagger rogues who solo.

Bard is more for xbow users imo. when i edit my guide i'll put more emphasis on the value of bard to xbows. When i get both maxed out i think i'll stick with cleric though, warlock is tempting but i don't think i could switch weapons fast enough to keep up with it

PS: i LOVE to use tag point to stalk prey when im jobbing....it can be such a hassle to relocate traders you've lost if you get side tracked...

[gongjaied]

since i don't know, how much dam a lvl 80 fully farmed rouge would do on me, i can't say much about the first hit thing. the only high lvl eu char i fought so far was a warrior, lvl 79. all i can say is, if he casts that 45secs warrior buff (+phy defense), i either try to stun him or try to protect myself, till his buff disappears. after it disappears, i kill him within 6 hits.

ROFL you're giving lessons about how to beat a Rogue when
1. You haven't even played a Rogue yourself
AND BIG DRUMROLLS PLEASE...
2. You've never fought a Pro Rogue who's used Bless/Stealth

Sounds like the ONLY experience you've had is vsing Noob Rogues/Chinese characters which TOTALLY misses the whole point of your arguments.

Mate you even know what some of the skills Rogues can do? I'd be surprised if you even know how a lv 70 Rogue can mop the floor of 5 70+ chinese characters...
Nuff said!

[RMP]

. try to shoot me with xbow, when im 25m away after 1 secs (grasswalk + some steps). and if you're stunned, i can escape even easier.

and btw: i killed with my lvl 59 chinese bow (using npc gears) a lvl 61 xbow with 2 hits. she only could kill me, when she managed to knock me down and then use that hp/defense sacrifising skill. if not, she dies.

but i haven't fought a rouge who uses stealth yet. that might be interesting, esp. con lvl 80.

Well. from my personal experience all I can say is, rogues suck at fair pvp, its not worth to even bother doing that, they will always loose, almost always. So no wonder you killed rogue without xbow extreme. But with stealth and crossbow extreme is where they shine, and that is the meaning of rogue.
...
.

Define a "Fair" pvp.

This is like the old 'Any class' vs Bower discusion, if bower use phantom or Hit & Run tactics in order to use his only advantage (Distance), then isn't a fair pvp...

So. maybe the only "Fair" pvp will be the fist figthing (no skill allowed) between naked chars. Of course between same stats builds only, because Int char will be in problems because his shorter HP poll.

Stealth, Xbow Extreme, Desperate Dagger, all are skills in the rogue tree, so using its isn't like cheat or something.

My 2 cents.

Salu2.

[WhipLash]

Define a "Fair" pvp.

I think fair pvp in this case refers to the duels where both players are allowed to get ready, someone says go, and they fight. In other words, the element of surprise that rogues depend on is taken away. When the other player is ready for the rogue, there's a very high chance the rogue will lose. That is unless they dont have destealth. I consider using stealth perfectly fair, and in organised duels, i see nothing wrong with activating stealth once the duel starts. But your opponent will probably activate some king of destealth skill seeing as he knows you're coming.

[MrLonely]

Define a "Fair" pvp.

I think fair pvp in this case refers to the duels where both players are allowed to get ready, someone says go, and they fight. In other words, the element of surprise that rogues depend on is taken away. When the other player is ready for the rogue, there's a very high chance the rogue will lose. That is unless they dont have destealth. I consider using stealth perfectly fair, and in organised duels, i see nothing wrong with activating stealth once the duel starts. But your opponent will probably activate some king of destealth skill seeing as he knows you're coming.

What he said

[elnawawi]

Define a "Fair" pvp.

I think fair pvp in this case refers to the duels where both players are allowed to get ready, someone says go, and they fight. In other words, the element of surprise that rogues depend on is taken away. When the other player is ready for the rogue, there's a very high chance the rogue will lose. That is unless they dont have destealth. I consider using stealth perfectly fair, and in organised duels, i see nothing wrong with activating stealth once the duel starts. But your opponent will probably activate some king of destealth skill seeing as he knows you're coming.

What he said

lol .. speak about fair pvp ..
I said this before and I will say again :

rogue have big probem in dualing in pvp .. and here is it ...

he will attack some one ,, he use his x-bow extreme , being visible , will loss some HP , and may some one make effect curse or weaking ... then noob ppl 1 hit him and say : we own rogues also when pvp rogue will almost kill you first time and then you will stand on your feet again and easily kill him .. both happened to me sometimes ..

In jobs .. it will be diffrent .. rogues always go hunters and thiefs ... you wil be big noob if you choose trader .. as a hunter or thief you need to be in stealth mode or duplicate skill or even mask .. you will zerk + extreme bow and snipe far ranged ppl first .. you will have chance to 2 hits archers before they begin attacking you .. you can kill many ppl with np problem depends on the surprise ... that's the work of rogue .. JM designed this charecter to act like this .. not for pvp at all .. crossbow is a snipe tool not long battle tool .. archers can go for 5 minutes fighting it's possible but don't say that with rogues ...

Archer can kill me if I have bad luck and I did no KB , KD , crit ... I can kill him If I did any of these ..

In guild war ..the rogue job is to snipe healers / ressers / heavy damgers fast and from far range ... he can go stealth and surpise them from behind too .. sniping these people will be the greatest work and he can die in peace after this .. np ..

lol .. I can imagine a bower trader on his way and suddenly he dead in few hits .. then he cry : NO STEALTH PLZ .. Oh , YOU ARE REAL NOOB .. I HATE YOU ... it's not fair ..... you can't deny that in job war also .. and even in pvp 1 VS 1 .. If you deny stealth I will deny your combo .. or if you are hybird I will deny snow shileld .. etc ..

plz remember that pvp isn't everything (If you don't consider it NOTHING ) , I play pvp for 2 reasons :
- To train and test my build and different skills and play style .. and no problem to be owned in training .. it's not real game play ...
- or I play for fun , and when I play for fun I have no problem to be dead too many times ..

No loss in gold or exp in pvp = No pain ..
But Jobs and wars are the right place to rogue to shine ..
It's slikroad online not battle pvp road online .. that's my point of view make me always say : rouges can destroy everything around