Are cleric buffs THAT important?

[nphillip]

50% of the people on this forum says that bards are better as a subclass for rogues, 40% say clerics, and the other 10% says warrior/warlock.

but anyway, most of the people who selected clerics talk about how good and important there buffs are and not many mention there ability to heal and ress. i know that when crossbow extreme or dagger desperate is used defense and hp is highly reduced, but does the buffs from clerics really make up for those missing defense, hp and more?

and just out of curiosty, would bard subclass be better for dagger or
xbow? xD


EDIT- Which of the important cleric buffs shown below stay when you switch weapons and which dont.

Healing
Healing Cycle
Bless
Holy Word
Heaven Flash
Recovery Division

[Aby]

Rogues are stealth assassins. Do you think it would be a good idea to break out of stealth, to cast 80 million different debuffs on your opponent, giving them a chance to rape you? No.

How about in a single buff, getting 2x the defence of the best chinese buffs, in case your first hit didn't annihilate your opponent? Yummy.

How about sacrificing either of those to mvoe 90% faster? No.

[ZiNC]

Rogues are stealth assassins. Do you think it would be a good idea to break out of stealth, to cast 80 million different debuffs on your opponent, giving them a chance to rape you? No.

How about in a single buff, getting 2x the defence of the best chinese buffs, in case your first hit didn't annihilate your opponent? Yummy.

How about sacrificing either of those to mvoe 90% faster? No.

what if you want to deal with a group of traders that you just spotted?(your under stealth)you first get a bit out of sight buff your self up switch to daggers do Dagger Desperate and then use scud and deal with 1st guy with out him feeling it,then you target the other guy and some traders/hunters start to attack you.You are auto healing and you have 3x defence so meh. np you deal with them all and you send a global saying:

THX TO ZiNC FOR TELLING ME TO GO CLERIC

[XemnasXD]

Rogues are stealth assassins. Do you think it would be a good idea to break out of stealth, to cast 80 million different debuffs on your opponent, giving them a chance to rape you? No.

How about in a single buff, getting 2x the defence of the best chinese buffs, in case your first hit didn't annihilate your opponent? Yummy.

How about sacrificing either of those to mvoe 90% faster? No.

With a warlock sub the goal is come out of stealth stun your opponent and cast debuffs (which cast pretty quickly) and then annihilate your opponent. I don't know how well it works with dealing with groups but a LvL 80 Chinese Archer got one hitted by a lvl 42 archer when a lvl 52 Warlock cast all their debuffs on them. That says something to me.

Moving speed as i said before can be duplicated with a potion if you wanted it that badly so theres no really point in getting bard unless your cheap imo

Cleric buffs WILL keep you alive longer and recovery division is basically auto pot....A EURO WITH AUTO POT....i don't see why ppl don't see the draw in that....

[[AoW]ForLife]

With a warlock sub the goal is come out of stealth stun your opponent and cast debuffs (which cast pretty quickly) and then annihilate your opponent. I don't know how well it works with dealing with groups but a LvL 80 Chinese Archer got one hitted by a lvl 42 archer when a lvl 52 Warlock cast all their debuffs on them. That says something to me.

Moving speed as i said before can be duplicated with a potion if you wanted it that badly so theres no really point in getting bard unless your cheap imo

Cleric buffs WILL keep you alive longer and recovery division is basically auto pot....A EURO WITH AUTO POT....i don't see why ppl don't see the draw in that....

o_O did the lvl 80 have anything on? Lol.

[BuddahBless]

I don't know how well it works with dealing with groups but a LvL 80 Chinese Archer got one hitted by a lvl 42 archer when a lvl 52 Warlock cast all their debuffs on them.

Yeah right....

Both euro chars would have died from like two arrows from the chinese bower.

-edit- Must have been pure int bow or something. <_<

[XemnasXD]

NO the lvl 80 willingly agreed to have all the debuffs cast on him so the 42 could see how much damage it would deal...it was a staged thing the effects were real the 80 got KO with one skill.....

[corkscrew]

Xemnas ur my hero

[torinchibi]

Bard FTL

I keep telling you people that bards are not meant for subclasses, they are more of a main class support char than being a subclass for anyone. Speed cannot beat the advantages of the other 5 classes.

As a subclass, even wizard is more useful than bard, you can get teleport and use it with any weapon, use mana drought after 76 to increase pot delay to 4 sec, use earth barrier which stays on after weapon switching, use fear for a 10 sec attack free ownage, and even use root. In comparison, the bard can only buff speed and noise, and also use bind.

Cleric or Warlock are the subclasses to go for, Warlocks have plenty of debuffs and skills that can be used in battle.

[Rainigul]

Last edited by [GM]Gargamel on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:26 pm; edited 17 time in total

What the hell is this? lol.

[[AoW]ForLife]

Last edited by [GM]Gargamel on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:26 pm; edited 17 time in total

What the hell is this? lol.

[GrimJow]

i think its best to go bard with warrior for the extra speed since the armor slows you down...rogues have more use for the cleric buffs since warriors already have their own handy little buffs

[Etrad]

Bard FTL

I keep telling you people that bards are not meant for subclasses, they are more of a main class support char than being a subclass for anyone. Speed cannot beat the advantages of the other 5 classes.

Bards serve a VERY specific purpose: Make all general mobs (including part mobs) passive. Nobody said its OMGWTFBBQ BEST SUB EVAR! You may like having uber defence (which is only really useful if you're using crossbow or not using any of the extreme/desperate buffs at all), but I like to be able to stand amids a mob of supposedly aggressive monsters, and snipe/stab at my own pace. And hey, I don't need to wait for 2 entire minutes to reuse the skill again (for a rather measly 45 seconds, in which you can barely kill a giant with unless you are zerked), and it lasts 3 times as long as a recovery division would (hence less need to rebuff while grinding). The main point of a bard sub is to SOLO efficiently. I have been using a bard sub for 40 levels, and I can tell you that it does it job.

Also, you've previously argued that you don't need speed for grinding since you can lure them to you with fast shot. But that argument fails because not all monsters/areas have the spawnrate of penons/ongs. You WILL have to run around if you want to grind efficiently.

I would LOVE to see how much "better" a high lvl rogue like Juey can survive while using dagger desperate with Bless Spell, ESPECIALLY against more than 1 opponent. You see that very shiny +1k phy.def from a high lvl BS? You're only getting 25% of that. Oh joy, 250 def, which still sounds awesome right? Until you realize that, even with that 250 phy.def, your total defense is 450...which STILL sucks (at lvl 80).

Bless spell is very useful...if you didn't have a percentage based defense decrease. Yea, you can win an argument if its warlock/wizard sub bard vs sub cleric, because not only does it improve recovery division's healing (minimum hp healed + weapon mag.atk 100% reflection per tick of healing), neither of them suffer a penalty for any of their defensive stats for their buffs. Wizards lose HP, but still benefit from the entire +1k physical defense.

And hey, you talk about how speed can be replaced with a 300k speed pot - in that case, why not argue that a pure int chinese char doesn't need to get the mag.dmg buff, because he can just buy a scroll from item mall that adds 20% extra damage? (even better since the skill only adds 17% at 80 cap)
Or how chinese bow users don't need to waste sp learning the attack rating buff, because he can just buy a scroll that adds 20% attack rating?
Or that, instead of wasting 70k sp on wizard sub to get the physical attack reduction buff, just buy and use a scroll that does the same thing with BOTH physical and magical damage?

At the end of the day, its like what XemnasXD said before - he chose cleric for his sub because its his preference. I chose bard because I like to be able to grind without needing to heal every Farking second, because I don't go round PvPing alot AND because I don't think I'll benefit much from it in a soloing position on things like job wars anyways - in other words, my preference.

[ciddy]

the problem of cleric's buff is they dont last long...recovery division or whatever it's called lasts only 300sec.

i prefer speed and aggo prevention. the only reason i would want to be sub-cleric is to res..a lvl 60 cleric can res a lvl 80 o_0

[RyokuJutsu]

cleric buffs are awesome for a rogue, even though i made a topic about a rogue going teleport, i think cleric would be more beneficial, but not as much fun

no other mastery would be as more useful as a cleric.

***DRUG OF TYPHOON FTW!!! SCREW MOVING MARCH!***

[tomiotar]

With a warlock sub the goal is come out of stealth stun your opponent and cast debuffs (which cast pretty quickly) and then annihilate your opponent. I don't know how well it works with dealing with groups but a LvL 80 Chinese Archer got one hitted by a lvl 42 archer when a lvl 52 Warlock cast all their debuffs on them. That says something to me.

Moving speed as i said before can be duplicated with a potion if you wanted it that badly so theres no really point in getting bard unless your cheap imo

Cleric buffs WILL keep you alive longer and recovery division is basically auto pot....A EURO WITH AUTO POT....i don't see why ppl don't see the draw in that....

o_O did the lvl 80 have anything on? Lol.

There is another option for that. Even if is clearly stated that 1% defence ignore are just against mobs it happend to me at least 3 times hitting over +33k against lvl7x-8x during jobbing/pvp with regular shot and no crit nor zerk. I think that it was 4 times but once I couldnt see the damage myself because it was the classic situation when the other is running and by time the arrow arrives he is too far and dont show the damage. That I know is that I 2-hit a thief lvl80 glavier fully buffed and with his shield on that was running to safe zone (I didnt see the damage of that second arrow, but 2 others hunters that was pursuing him just stand there and say "wow" and they come to ask me which skill did I use).

[Gokenzul]

When you see level 40 Rogues soloing uijgi it ain't with cleric skills, it is with noise and moving march.

[torinchibi]

Ok, in reply to Etrad's arguments:
1. Noise is not worth shit in PvP. I don't know what you play for, but I sure don't grind to be better at grinding.
2. Moving march sucks compared to the 100% boost from drug of typhoon. I am sure any other subclass advantage + 100% speed is better than 90% speed at level 80. Let's talk again after 100 cap when bards get 110% speed. Then you MIGHT have an argument, then again, probably not.
3. Joey would have survived a hell of a lot more with 1k extra defense compared to not having it. I don't even see how that was an argument. If he was a rogue cleric doing that, he would have got the damn 240k 100% potion. I myself plan on carrying a few of those when I start hunting thieves.

@Gokenzul : Ujigi are passive, you can solo them without having noise, and those rogues probably were not running away in the middle of a battle. That would defeat the purpose of killing higher level monsters since you waste more time running than killing. Yes, i have seen not only level 42 rogues(who goes to Ujigi with level 40 weapon, kind of inefficient), but also level 42 wizards doing it. I was there at 48 without using life control, but my friend with a +5 staff did it at 42 using life control.

If you had said Mujigi it would have been more of an argument, but really not that much better. Noise helps, but a champ/giant would have raped the rogue if you couldn't KD/KB it in time.


You cannot argue a case with 1 piece of inconclusive evidence, as you cannot argue a subclass with 1 skill which is useless in PvP. Moving March is excluded as a skill as soon as you find that grocery lady and realize 100% speed at any level > 90% speed at level 80.

[Phortex]

For OP; off the cleric buffs you have listed (on current edit) they all last after you chnage weapon apart form the two spells which are not buffs... Healing and holy flash (unless im confusing holyu flash with somthing else) it is only the + int/str and defense buffs that can go when u switch weapons (+def stays on pt members but not you)

[Jstar1]

also cleric is good for rogue since you get glory armor and increase your physical defense

[torinchibi]

glory armor only works if you also have cleric rod out.

[XemnasXD]

Healing
Healing Cycle
Bless
Holy Word
Heaven Flash
Recovery Division

WTH

i know you could've gotten that list anywhere but in the order its in its looks copy pasted right out of my guide which i find insulting because not only do you have the nerve to discredit me then go look at my research but now your questioning what i wrote in there because i clearly state which skills stay and which skills don't. Stop being a d*ick and FYI like i said in my guide all those skills stay after you switch weapons except Healing respectively.

You want to keep up with insults your going to keep getting flames back so don't act so shocked and surprised if/when you respond to this. I was being nice before im taking my kid gloves off now...

[nphillip]

Healing
Healing Cycle
Bless
Holy Word
Heaven Flash
Recovery Division

WTH

i know you could've gotten that list anywhere but in the order its in its looks copy pasted right out of my guide which i find insulting because not only do you have the nerve to discredit me then go look at my research but now your questioning what i wrote in there because i clearly state which skills stay and which skills don't. Stop being a d*ick and FYI like i said in my guide all those skills stay after you switch weapons except Healing respectively.

You want to keep up with insults your going to keep getting flames back so don't act so shocked and surprised if/when you respond to this. I was being nice before im taking my kid gloves off now...

to be honest i just don't like you attitude, and the way you talk.
i did not copy anything off of you and i wish you do not accuse me of doing so without proof as i find that insulting. if you think i copied it off you just because of the order its in then i must say you are just ridiculous. i got the order straight off the order the skill is listed in the game. and your telling me that your guide clearly states which skills stay and which ones don't?.. obviously if i'm asking that question here that means i did not read your thread hence copy words off your thread. and did you not remember me saying i don't read much of your threads and posts as it always leads to argument when i quote your words?

i don't mind you flaming me as i mentioned earlier i don't even read much of your posts. but i would appreciate it if you don't go off calling someone a dick.