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I've been reading these forums for awhile now, and I can't believe how many people are following Flys advice for building a nuker like blind sheep. Now, Fly certainly makes some good points about the functions of the build, but I disagree on many specifics of the build. Here they are:

1. "Fire imbue is stronger and better then the lighting imbue."

I mostly agree. But there is a reason he doesn't mention - the reason is because the light imbue has AOE (area of effect), which means it will trigger nearby enemies to come attack you. As a pure int, the vast majority of time you don't want this - getting mobbed by numerous enemies can lead to death.

Concerning the damage given - fire is stronger on paper. But by how much? Lets look at Lv61 fire imbue vs. L61 light imbue:

Lv61 Fire imbue: 268~446(100%) 25% burn / 142 intensity
Lv61 Light imbue: 212~394(100%) 20% parry reduce / 142 intensity

There is only about a 50 damage difference at L61. But at this level your nukes will be hitting in the thousands - about 3000 (lots of factors effect the exact number). So how much good do you think an extra 50 damage is really gonna get you over the light imbue? The vast majority of time, that extra 50 damage isn't gonna mean squat. What about the status effect? More about that in a second . . .



2. "The fire nuke is also stronger, faster, and hits farther".

Fire nuke is farther and faster. But stronger? Let compare:

Lv46 Flame Wave Arrow: 242~404(250%)
Lv46 Wolfs thunderbolt: 226~420(250%)

Lv67 Flame Wave Burning: 513~854(300%)
Lv66 Tigers Thunderbolt: 463~859(300%)

At L46, the light nuke has the advantage if hitting three targets, while the fire nuke does not. On top of that, although the fire nukes minimum damage is more than light nukes, the light nukes maximum damage is more.

At L66-67 (the nukes are not acquired at the same level, so we must compare different levels), the light nuke has a higher maximum damage than the fire nuke, *even when its one level less*. Both of these nukes can hit up to 3 targets, but the light nuke is more effective because the targets need not be in a straight line.

The third book of fire nuke, Flame Wave Wide, hits up to 5 targets - the light nuke has nothing comparable, so its hard to make meaningful comparisons of the 3rd book of fire nuke to the light nuke.

Conclusion? The fire nuke gives more consistent damage (has a greater minimum), but the light nuke has potential to hit harder (has a greater maximum). And lets get back to point #1 - if you use light imbue and reduce a mobs parry, that is gonna equal a lot more potential damage when using a light nuke because it has the higher maximum damage.

So is fire nuke stronger than light nuke? Debatable - you want consistent damage, or maximum potential damge?


3. "A lot of nukers go for lighting instead of fire as the main mastery. They end up quitting there character as soon as they begin to die, and there character does poorly in PvP."

Uhm, huh? This sounds like fire has some advantage over light for preventing death. But what buffs does fire have for a pure int that helps prevent death? Fire protection is nice - but a pure int already has a ton of magical defense. Fire shield can be useful, but with autopill, just how important is it? And I doubt this was referring to fire wall. The main reason to get fire is the "better" imbue and the nukes.

On the other hand, light has piercing force - and absolute requirement for a pure int because it increases magic damage. It also has grasswalk/phantomwalk, the lionshouts, and the concentration buffs. In other words, everything in light can help a pure int, which is not true for fire.

The fire nuke recharges faster than the light nuke, and that does help in pvp. But its a well know fact that pure int is not strong in pvp, and choosing fire as a main over light is not going to change that. The notion that a person will quit thier character once they being to die is a stretch, and trying to relate that to the fact they choose light over fire as their main mastery is an even bigger stretch.

This all said, I think most people agree thats is a good decision to get (at least some of) both anyway.


4. "At level 150, which is the highest level possible"

Says who? I have never seen anything from an official source that says 150 is the highest level. Also, the highest level cap in the SRO world right now is 90. I think most people think its a safe assumption that it will make it to 100. But as far as I know, saying 150 will be the highest level is just a guess.


5. "You need to get both sword and spear masteries up to 20, and max out all the skills up to 20. Your fire mastery will max out at 150, and your lighting will max out at 110."

Wow - I really feel sorry for some newbie who reads this and decides to build their character like this.

A. Does everyone realize just how long it will take to get to Lv150 *if* that is indeed the cap? It will literally take years and years. The fact is, I bet that less than 5% of the people who ever play this game will ever get to Lv70 - especially without a bot or sharing accounts. But Lv150? You've got to be kidding . . . I would guess that less than 0.1% of everyone who plays this game will ever get to Lv150 (if that is the level cap) - probably even less. Fly himself estimated that getting from Lv80 to 90 takes nearly 2 years - just for those 10 levels. The thought of some sub Lv30 person reading this advice and building their character exactly as such is just L.O.L.

B. Now, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't plan ahead - if indeed you do make it to Lv150, this build is alright (more on that in a sec). But heres my logic - if you actually spend the amount of time it takes to get to Lv150 (or even Lv100 . . . or even Lv70), would you still be opposed to spending money to get some skill reallocations from the item mall? You can't tell me you would spend literally years building your character but still refuse to spend some money on this game. In fact, if you get to L70 (or god forbid, Lv150) without ever using a 4 week gold ticket you're insane.

If you were to follow the proposed build, with the current level cap, you would have Lv20 spear and sword, and Lv70 fire and light - you would still have 120(!) available masteries to use. You're telling me you would not use those while not only leveling to Lv150, but also waiting for the level to be raised to Lv150? (remember highest in world right now is 90). Hell, you could do Lv90 fire and light, and Lv60 spear and sword, and you would be set until they raised the cap above Lv90. Remember, theres a *very* good chance you won't ever even make it to Lv90.

Then, when they raise the cap to Lv100, you would have to remove 10 masteries, probably from spear or sword. IIRC, 5 skill reallocations cost 28 silk - to remove 10 mastery levels and a passive, you would need 11 of them, so thats 84 silk (they come in 5s). That's a total of $8.40. Going further, *if* the cap becomes Lv150, (from the start 90/90/60/60), you would have to remove a total of 80 mastery levels and 8 passives (reducing spear & sword with 6th passives to Lv20 with 2nd passives), for a total of 88 skill reallocations. A total of 18 - 5 packs of skill allocations would get you there. So we have 18*28 = 504 silk, or just over $50.

But come on, *if* you got to Lv100, whats $8.40? And *if* (major, major if here) you got to Lv150, whats $50? You can't tell me you wouldn't spend $50 on a game that you played for *years*.

The advantages? Well, skill allocations don't cost you in game gold, and they give back 100% sp. I already made the case that the relative RL money cost is trivial compared to how long it will take to get to the level cap. The major advantage to this method is that you actually put your sp to work for you - you can acquire skills that will be very beneficial on your way to the level cap. And when/if it comes time to get rid of them, you get back all the sp you put into them. The thought of being at Lv70 (70 light & fire, 20 sword & spear), but still having 120 available masteries is just . . . err . . . well, whatever - its your character.

C. Say you actually get to Lv150 - and you have Lv20 spear passive, which gives 197HP. Uhm, lol? Do you really think an extra 197HP at Lv150 is gonna do much for you? And sub Lv20 weapon masteries will be beyond useless at Lv150. If anything, the guide should be 150 fire, 110 light, 40 sword. The blocking % passive will always help, even if its just the 2% increase (Lv1 passive) - well, if you're using sword/shield of course.


6. "When do you use a spear and when do you use a sword/shield? You use a spear when you can one hit a mob or a player. This will get you the most exp in the least amount of time. You use a sword/shield when you need to 2 hit mobs with both nukes. This will give you defense in between your nukes."

This isn't bad advice, and many people hold this view. Here's my 2 cents on the subject:

The difference in damage between a spear and sword is not that much at low level, it can easily be compensated for by buying a better sword, even just +1 more. At higher level, the spear does have higher damage, but IMO it's not as much as some people seem to suggest. But again, by buying a great sword this can be compensated for. Of course, the same agrument can go the way of the spear - if you buy a great spear, it will have the higher damage, no doubt.

Going the other way, the same can be said about buying very nice defensive gear to compensate for your lack of defense as a spear user. But, IMO, this is harder because all your defensive gear (6 things, 10 if counting jewelery) has to be pimped out to match the extra defense a great shield provides. But as before, if the shield user has pimped defensive gear, he will have greater defense, no doubt.

The one thing the spear user can never buy though is the ability to block. It doesn't matter how much gold he has, even if he has 1 billion gold, the spear user can't block. On the other hand, a billionaire sword user could always try to buy a SOM or SOSun weapon, which will hit harder than the vast, vast, majority (if not everyone but a couple) of spear users, and he will still have his block and extra defense.

I agree there are advantages to switching. It really depends on exactly what mobs you're grinding (or person you're pvping), and if that extra spear damage will put you over the edge for the kill. For example, say an enemy has 2500 health, and you have a spear that does 2000 damage, and a sword that does 1600 damage. It still takes 2 hits with each to finish off the enemy. However, if the enemy had 1900 health, the spear would be worth it. This is a crude hypothetical scenario, but shows that the extra damage a spear provides is only worth it, if in fact, you are absolutely positive it will get you over the edge to one hit the enemy. Yeah, this is exactly what Fly said . . . just expanding on it . . . thing is, it is easier said than done at times - you really have to be aware of the damage you're dealing and how much health the mobs you're fighting have.


7. "For skills nukers have it easy."

i agree that for nukers lightning is better than fire

nice one
although reading this still won't change a thing of my current planned build
only need to farm a little 112k sp to lvl 70

let's assume that the cap is not 150, but 100..
why?
because then it would be that you can only max like 2 masteries..if you're planned to max 2 masteries though

The build i'm farming for is a light/ice nuker with sword and fire as support..
light = maxed till 100
ice = 90 (with imbue maxed, frost nova 1, ice nukes maxed, defensive buff and passive)
fire = 50...all nukes till book3 lvl1, shield buff and magic defensive buff
sword = 60 for the passive and chains + kd/s as low as possible

imo you should get as much as defense as you can get though

if you're curious why i'm so much interested in the chain series...let me just say i saw an awesome movie of an int user who kept using those skills...killed at lvl62 mobs in the cave in no time using almost chains all the time ...and the passive is a nice extra

in total i shall have like...all the nukes which are available in sro, except for book4 of fire nuke...
i know nukes are giving tremendous huge dmg, but still i'm worried of my defense..that's why i'm 'maxing' the ice tree...gives me a little bit more of confidence when active in guildwars :p

great guide nonetheless

great job at looking at this made me look at my nuck that might someday be again (but not for long )

1. "There is only about a 50 damage difference at L61"

The effect has a lot more importance than you give it. In PvE, you shouldn't count on it anyway. Mobs should die long before the effect should matter. Exceptions are uniques and giants, but you have other people and zerk, respectively.

In PvP, it's going to get potted away in seconds. As a nuker, your hits come so slow that unless your strategy is get effect and lion shot for 500, it will be potted away by the time your next one hits. With fire, you've already done X dmg, with lightning, you've just done less dmg. Also, fire tends to "stick" more often, meaning in a long, drawn out fight, as higher levels are likely to have, you have a greater chance at depleting your opponents pots with fire. With no pots, lightning IS a greater effect, but it'll take longer to get to that point. However, in that scenario, you still lose to whoever's using ice.

2. "At L46, the light nuke has the advantage if hitting three targets, while the fire nuke does not."

A lightning nuke's lower dmg will most likely NOT kill one of the three, meaning while you wait for it to reset up to 3 mobs will be aggroing you. With a fire/light combo, you can (hopefully) kill one, and lightning nuke the other before they get to you, definately killing one, and by the time they get to you, finish them off with a 3rd fire nuke. A lot of the time, if they're melee mobs, they're dead before they get to you. With lightning only, you have more time between your heavy hitting attacks, and a couple unlucky crits =death, even with autopot. As far as max damage, unless you're leveling your blue hawk, you'll rarely if ever see your max dmg. Average dmg is a better indicator, in which case they are equal at lvl 46, but fire wins by lvl 67. And by the 3rd book, fire wins in both 1 mob damage, and multimob damage.

Admittedly, i haven't seen a good damage comparison of the damage loss between fire and lightning nukes transfer damage. But even if lightning is more efficient, it shouldn't matter much.



All that said, I would really like to see a pure kamikaze lightning nuker. Garments, spear, and ALL lightning skills. (possibly up to lvl 20 HP passive, not a big SP investment there). The SP cost would be (likely) under 40k. I can't tell you what it is exactly, because the calculators down, but even with the amount of death this char would have, it would pale in comparison to never having to farm, and being able (with a good weapon) to OHK almost anything around its level.

Not really feasible for PvE, but if someone had a lot of time, and wanted to be the first legit 60 on a new server, this would definately be the build to do it.

Lol...
1. Guides aren't made so people can know every skill used how many points and the importance of it all, people following that seem pretty blind sheepy to me lol. I'm sure Fly gets that people need to learn and can't be told everything or what's the point? It's like copying work in school, sure you're doing it but are you really learning it? And every bit of damage counts!

2. It's a fire/light build meaning the nukers are supposed to be using BOTH nukes he never said only go with fire, so compairing them is pointless if he said to use both.

3. He's talking about PURE just lightning builds, the point is to use both so you can get more nukes in.

Some key things you might want to look into, straight from his guide.
"Lighting is the sub mastery and will be just as important to keep up. A lot of nukers go for lighting instead of fire as the main mastery"

I can see where your point is coming from, but that is why it is a fire/light nuker. Many nukers, including myself, use both fire AND light nukes when playing. Therefore I do not really see the point of your thread.

i don't know what kind of dumb nuker would wear garment in pvp.. there really no benefit. 20% Mp use reduction is worthless in pvp because you have your pots set.

Pure int spear with fire, ice lightning but no weapon skills....so much SP neede and yet...so tempting....

haha nice agrugments but it doesnt matter for me, im maxing out fire and lightningi completly

RaiKiRii wrote:i don't know what kind of dumb nuker would wear garment in pvp.. there really no benefit. 20% Mp use reduction is worthless in pvp because you have your pots set.

Faster grinding, for getting to max faster .

antix wrote:I can see where your point is coming from, but that is why it is a fire/light nuker. Many nukers, including myself, use both fire AND light nukes when playing. Therefore I do not really see the point of your thread.

word

Not sure if Fly's refering to this... but here's wat i think.

Last book last lvl of lightning imbue at lvl69 does 286-429 dmg
Last lvl book 2 ligthning nuke at lvl66 does 463-859 dmg
(note:book2 lvl 9 is the last nuke u will hav... or at lease till now in korea)

Last book last lvl of fire imbue at lvl69 does 351-589 dmg
Last lvl book 2 fire nuke at lvl69 does 548-913 dmg

Unless u r not intending to imbue your nukes...
Pluck these figures into the nuke damage formular found in this forum, n u hav your answer
And beyond lvl 70, the power of fire nuke will slowly but surly gain an edge over lightning.

Just my 2cents...
Have a great day.

ShizKnight wrote:

RaiKiRii wrote:i don't know what kind of dumb nuker would wear garment in pvp.. there really no benefit. 20% Mp use reduction is worthless in pvp because you have your pots set.

Faster grinding, for getting to max faster .

PvP dude. not grind

the type of armor is base on self, so there is no need to call someone stupid or dumb ok?

i use garment and i am a pure int..

i tried armor for a few levels.. i almost wanted to quit the game wearing armor.. it's so dam slow, waste so much mana, and i die just as much too -__-

Fly's build is the best

lets FLY

RaiKiRii wrote:

ShizKnight wrote:

RaiKiRii wrote:i don't know what kind of dumb nuker would wear garment in pvp.. there really no benefit. 20% Mp use reduction is worthless in pvp because you have your pots set.

Faster grinding, for getting to max faster .

PvP dude. not grind

STALLOWNED!

about fire shield


it is not usless, it still cuts the error effect down and makes it eazer to pill away with lower lvl pills ,
and being frosen wil last alot shorter with fire shield than it dus with out

personaly i mainly use fire shield becouse of 2 things

with fire shield i use just 1 pill to pill away status error effects , wile with out i need 2 pills ,, 2 pills means longer effects of the poisen/burn/frostbite/zombie ,
and second becouse i stand around like an ice cube for a shorter period of time ,

and yea , i also agree and disagree with alot of things in fly's guide.
fly's guide is jus another guide to building a nuker type I take it as seriusly as any other guide out there .
And i also dono wat made him say lvl 150 will be max , as i also never saw anything that proves this yet
personaly i think 100 will be max , couse that leaves you with 3 mastery tree's to max , like 1 wreapon , 1 force and the force tree for healy spells and stuff

if lvl max was ganna be 150 , healers would be SUCKY, couse thay's only have either force + either fire, cold, ligtning or a weapon skill
thay would be unable to lvl by them selfs , and i dont think joymax would ever put down and screw over a healer like that

Doru wrote:I've been reading these forums for awhile now, and I can't believe how many people are following Flys advice for building a nuker like blind sheep.

It's no true, that many people will follow Fly's guide blindly. I, for example, used it to get to know the idea of building chars in SRO (and i'm playing for like 2.5 weeks). Like it says it is a GUIDE. It's great if you want to know what you should do at the beginning of the game, when you know nothing about it. I hate it when I start a new game and know nothing. Sure, getting to know new stuff by yourself is fun, but I don't like spending time on learning the basics, just to I'll have to start a new char every 2 days, becouse I screwed sth at the beginning.

RaiKiRii wrote:i don't know what kind of dumb nuker would wear garment in pvp.. there really no benefit. 20% Mp use reduction is worthless in pvp because you have your pots set.

A nuker fighting another nuker? With the extra magic defense, the armor will go down to a garment wearer even at a few levels lower.

Or, in a team battle far from a city, maxed grasswalk plus garment = super speed. You can nuke and run, and probably never be caught, save for the occasional flying dragon..which won't kill you.

i agree with Kitary, i think the level cap would be 100, because fire, ice, and lightning all have their own skill set, the game is guiding you to just choose 1 elemental force, 1 weapon force, and of corse force it self, so when your lvl 100, you have say lvl 100 weapon, lvl 100 element, and lvl 100 force, but, if they DO raise the lvl cap to 150, whos to say they wont raise the mastery cap too? remember there is 2 whole other races that we dont have yet, but also, why make the mastery cap 300 when our cap is still lvl 70, they may or may not raise the mastery cap if they raise the lvl cap past 100

Seriously, they give you 300 mastery lvls to use at lvl 70 lvl cap, which means you can max out 4 skill trees and have 20 left over, nukers aren't going to max out the bicheon tree.
you could easily have
70 fire
70 lightning
70 cold (if you really want to)
and then for nukers you could have
45 bicheon
and
45 heuskal

i currently have a lvl 26 soon to be nuker
with
19 bicheon
19 cold
19 fire
24 lightning
10 heuskal (de-lvling probably) just passive atm
i find that i can beat a lot of pure str characters my lvl, even if they have an sos weapon. i've got a 15 block ratio shield, and i use my shock lion shout, combos, and such. (granted i die often but i make others die just as much.)

Devotia wrote:

RaiKiRii wrote:i don't know what kind of dumb nuker would wear garment in pvp.. there really no benefit. 20% Mp use reduction is worthless in pvp because you have your pots set.

A nuker fighting another nuker? With the extra magic defense, the armor will go down to a garment wearer even at a few levels lower.

Or, in a team battle far from a city, maxed grasswalk plus garment = super speed. You can nuke and run, and probably never be caught, save for the occasional flying dragon..which won't kill you.

nuker vs nuker it doesn't matter what you wear really. whoever gets the first shot is going to win unless it gets blocked.

the nuke and run tactic would work, except that nukers get targeted first in most wars. unless you're playing with safe zones, the running tactic doens't work well (believe me i've tried it). it works well while in job though, but in organized PvP... hard to run and dodge 4 or 5 attacks.

RaiKiRii wrote:

Devotia wrote:

RaiKiRii wrote:i don't know what kind of dumb nuker would wear garment in pvp.. there really no benefit. 20% Mp use reduction is worthless in pvp because you have your pots set.

A nuker fighting another nuker? With the extra magic defense, the armor will go down to a garment wearer even at a few levels lower.

Or, in a team battle far from a city, maxed grasswalk plus garment = super speed. You can nuke and run, and probably never be caught, save for the occasional flying dragon..which won't kill you.

nuker vs nuker it doesn't matter what you wear really. whoever gets the first shot is going to win unless it gets blocked.

the nuke and run tactic would work, except that nukers get targeted first in most wars. unless you're playing with safe zones, the running tactic doens't work well (believe me i've tried it). it works well while in job though, but in organized PvP... hard to run and dodge 4 or 5 attacks.

True. I'm assuming that your level and eq are both good enough that you won't be OHKd, and that you'll pot away any damage between hits. If they feel like putting 4 people on a nuker who's not actually going to kill anyone, than you've given your team a great advantage, even if you're killed.

As for the garment nuekr surviving, I've never actually seen a lvl 60+ nuker fight armor vs garment. But I'm assuming that the magical def bonus plus int bonus will be enough to pot away damage between hits.

my mistake
going hyb btw
btw, http://silkroadforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1746&start=90

plz help

First off, the point of this thread was to get people thinking for themselves about how to build a nuker. Some say that Flys guide isn't meant to be followed verbatim, but yet I see people refer to it exactly in that way all the time on these forums. To me, part of the fun of a game like this is figuring out how you want to build your character. But it seems many people just want to be told *exactly* what to do - mastery to mastery, skill to skill. In that case, I think Flys suggestion 150 fire / 110 light / 20 sword & spear is a poor one, and one which many lower level new players may foolishly follow . . . it is a sticky after all.

Second, many of you act like I was talking about going solely lightening, I wasn't *at all* - I'm a dual nuker myself. Hell, I said right in my post "I think most people agree thats is a good decision to get (at least some of) both anyway".

Now, on to my specific respones:

Devotia wrote:1. "There is only about a 50 damage difference at L61" The effect has a lot more importance than you give it. Also, fire tends to "stick" more often, meaning in a long, drawn out fight, as higher levels are likely to have, you have a greater chance at depleting your opponents pots with fire.

A. We are talking about pure int, yes? Can't say I remember too many pure int fights that are long and drawn out, especially to the point where either players pots will be depleted.

B. IN pvp, it's all about peak damage, not consistent damage - this is one reason a glaives crit is so deadly to a pure int. And if you look at the numbers, light nuke has the higher maximum damage. However, I admit that it is not that much above fire . . . and it's not even remotely comparable to the kind of jump in damage a glaive user gets when he crits.

C. I admit I am downplaying the extra ~50 damage (at Lv61). But I can't help but wonder how many people out there choose the fire imbue because of the extra nominal damage, but yet have a magic balance less than 98%. Or who think they are smart in choosing fire imbue over light just because of the damage, but don't have enough gold to buy a better weapon. Also, I had both imbues at L37 - when fighting a giant as a nuker, the light imbue is stronger than the fire imbue when the parry status effect takes hold - every nuke hits for a higher average, and the net effect is more than what burn status & extra fire imbue damamge provides . . . but it was close. Finally, IME, that extra ~50 damage just doesn't usually make a difference very often . . . but I guess it only takes that 1 time to make it worth it. If status effect played a bigger role, I would probably go with light imbue, but since it doesn't (can be autpoilled/fire shield away) I don't - I use the fire imbue.

Devotia wrote:2. "At L46, the light nuke has the advantage if hitting three targets, while the fire nuke does not." A lightning nuke's lower dmg will most likely NOT kill one of the three, meaning while you wait for it to reset up to 3 mobs will be aggroing you. With a fire/light combo, you can (hopefully) kill one, and lightning nuke the other before they get to you, definately killing one, and by the time they get to you, finish them off with a 3rd fire nuke. A lot of the time, if they're melee mobs, they're dead before they get to you. With lightning only, you have more time between your heavy hitting attacks, and a couple unlucky crits =death, even with autopot.

As noted, I wasn't comparing a nuker with only lightening vs. only fire - I was making a statement as to which nuke is stronger. As such, I agree with most of the above, as they are good reasons to go with a dual nuker. But concerning the damage - when I go berserk and am fighting a giant, yes, the light nuke will kill any normal mob that tries to attack me in one hit a lot of the time. If I'm fighting a giant and have 2 normal mobs on me, when berserk, I've easily done over 10,000 total damage to the mobs combined (when I was under Lv50). I can't say the same for the fire nuke. But . . .

Devotia wrote:As far as max damage, unless you're leveling your blue hawk, you'll rarely if ever see your max dmg. Average dmg is a better indicator, in which case they are equal at lvl 46, but fire wins by lvl 67. And by the 3rd book, fire wins in both 1 mob damage, and multimob damage.

Well, you brought up the point . . . what if someone does level blue hawk? Not to mention there are hit scrolls which increase attack rating by 30%. I agree average damage is higher with fire nuke, but light nuke still has potential for greater maximum damage. By 3rd book fire, this remains true. On 3 mobs light has a better chance to hit them all unless they are grouped together very closely - which means on average *against 3 mobs*, light has better average and maximum. Against 5 mobs, fire always is better because light can only hit 3. After Lv67, you're right and bring up a good point - fire is stronger. But its by default, as light stops at L66.

x_CodeZero_x wrote:1. Guides aren't made so people can know every skill used how many points and the importance of it all, people following that seem pretty blind sheepy to me lol. I'm sure Fly gets that people need to learn and can't be told everything or what's the point? It's like copying work in school, sure you're doing it but are you really learning it?

Thanks for reiterating my point. Unfortunetely, I do see people on this forum follow his guide verbatim.

x_CodeZero_x wrote:And every bit of damage counts!

Addressed above.

x_CodeZero_x wrote:2. It's a fire/light build meaning the nukers are supposed to be using BOTH nukes he never said only go with fire, so compairing them is pointless if he said to use both.

Uhm, I never said only go with one either. Comparing them is not pointless as he made the assertion that fire is the stronger nuke - I say thats debatable. Well, up until L66 . . . but chances are most people who read his guide will never make it that far anyway.

x_CodeZero_x wrote:3. He's talking about PURE just lightning builds

O'Rly? He said right in the guide "We will be creating a duel nuker and fire will end up the main mastery". Did I miss something?

x_CodeZero_x wrote:the point is to use both so you can get more nukes in.

Gee, thanks Captain Obvious.

x_CodeZero_x wrote:Some key things you might want to look into, straight from his guide.
"Lighting is the sub mastery and will be just as important to keep up. A lot of nukers go for lighting instead of fire as the main mastery"

Uhm, ok? I never implied he was proposing a build solely on fire. What he *did* seem to suggest though is that a person who has light as main / fire as sub will "quit their character as soon as they begin to die" in comparison to someone who has fire as main / light as sub. I completely disagree . . . and besides, both light and fire go to Lv110, so IMO they are both main masteries.

Whats really LOL here is the fact you just said "He's talking about PURE just lightning builds", and then quote "Lighting is the sub mastery and will be just as important to keep up". And you're telling me to look into the guide? Riiiiight.

mono wrote:Last book last lvl of lightning imbue at lvl69 does 286-429 dmg
Last lvl book 2 ligthning nuke at lvl66 does 463-859 dmg
(note:book2 lvl 9 is the last nuke u will hav... or at lease till now in korea)

Last book last lvl of fire imbue at lvl69 does 351-589 dmg
Last lvl book 2 fire nuke at lvl69 does 548-913 dmg

A. I also have the chart with all the skills in excel format. I want you to take a careful look at the last book of the light imbue. Here's what I see:

Lv1 - 243~452
Lv2 - 268~402
Lv3 - 286~429

Now, whats more likely? That the maximum light imbue damage actually decreases in damage going from Lv1 to Lv2? Or that someone made an error when putting in the numbers? Granted, the light imbue is weaker in damage than the fire imbue - but I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

B. You're comparing a L66 nuke with a L69 nuke - how is that fair? Of course the L69 nuke is stronger.

C. You ignore status effect, which for pvp don't matter much - but for pve, can really make a difference.

mono wrote:And beyond lvl 70, the power of fire nuke will slowly but surly gain an edge over lightning.

That is a good point, and one I didn't mention in my first post. Actually, the advantage of fire nuke grows since level L67, where the light nuke stops (L66). If the light nuke ever shows up with a 3rd book, thinkgs may change. But until then, yes, fire nuke is strongest about L67 onwards.

kitary wrote:it is not usless, it still cuts the error effect down and makes it eazer to pill away with lower lvl pills, and being frosen wil last alot shorter with fire shield than it dus with out

I never said it was useless . . . in fact, I said it can be useful. In fact, I use fire shield the same exact way you do.

antix wrote:Many nukers, including myself, use both fire AND light nukes when playing.

I do too - I'm a Lv5x dual nuker. Whats funny is later on in this thread you say you're L26 - which means you don't even have your nukes yet. So how is it you use both fire AND light nukes when playing? How do you use any nukes?

antix wrote:Therefore I do not really see the point of your thread.

That's ok . . considering your post contains no new information, doesn't expand on any of my ideas, and shows you completely missed the main point of my thread, I don't understand the point of your reply. Since you missed it - the main point is that telling newbies to go for a 150 fire / 110 light / 20 sword & spear is bad advice for a multitude of reasons.

antix wrote:nukers aren't going to max out the bicheon tree.

Up to Lv90? Probably not.

Up to Lv60? Perhaps.

antix wrote:you could easily have
70 fire
70 lightning
70 cold (if you really want to)
and then for nukers you could have
45 bicheon
and
45 heuskal

Considering the passives are at L40 and Lv50, why would anyone have L45 of both sword and spear? Thats makes no sense.

antix wrote: currently have a lvl 26 soon to be nuker
with
19 bicheon
19 cold
19 fire
24 lightning
10 heuskal (de-lvling probably) just passive atm
i find that i can beat a lot of pure str characters my lvl, even if they have an sos weapon. i've got a 15 block ratio shield, and i use my shock lion shout, combos, and such. (granted i die often but i make others die just as much.)

Why have lightening just 2 levels below your exp level, but not have cold and bicheon at level 20 so you can get the next passive? Again, thats makes no sense.

And when people talk about pure str vs. pure int, they are not talking about it at Lv26. All those discussions are about high level matchups, i.e. Lv60 and beyond. Many people consider pure int to be strongest up until Lv50.

Fact is, level means A LOT in this game in terms of how strong you are. You could have to most whack Lv60 build in the game with a few skills, and they should be able to beat a perfectly constructed Lv52 build with a lot of skills.

Whats really LOL here is the fact you just said "He's talking about PURE just lightning builds", and then quote "Lighting is the sub mastery and will be just as important to keep up". And you're telling me to look into the guide? Riiiiight.

Oh wow I read something wrong heaven forbid.. What are you complaining about it's a duel nuker and the point is to keep the lightning and fire masteries CLOSE, I don't get what you're bitching about really, it gets the best of both worlds. If Fly is clearly SO wrong then what do you suggest?

x_CodeZero_x wrote:

Whats really LOL here is the fact you just said "He's talking about PURE just lightning builds", and then quote "Lighting is the sub mastery and will be just as important to keep up". And you're telling me to look into the guide? Riiiiight.

Oh wow I read something wrong heaven forbid.. What are you complaining about it's a duel nuker and the point is to keep the lightning and fire masteries CLOSE, I don't get what you're bitching about really, it gets the best of both worlds. If Fly is clearly SO wrong then what do you suggest?

Well the way i understand it, he never said anything about "Fly being SO wrong", but he tries to make clear, that below lvl 66 the fire nuke is pretty equal to the light nuke, as it seems to be often missunderstood that the fire nuke is SO much stronger all the way, which it simply isnt. Also he just stated, that going all the way a build thats designed for a lvl 150 including only a lvl 20 spear passive, makes no real sense, as the way its at the moment a lvl 60 spear passive can really help.

Thats just the way i understand it, hope its nothing wrong.

greetings tam

Doru wrote:C. I admit I am downplaying the extra ~50 damage (at Lv61). But I can't help but wonder how many people out there choose the fire imbue because of the extra nominal damage, but yet have a magic balance less than 98%. Or who think they are smart in choosing fire imbue over light just because of the damage, but don't have enough gold to buy a better weapon. Also, I had both imbues at L37 - when fighting a giant as a nuker, the light imbue is stronger than the fire imbue when the parry status effect takes hold - every nuke hits for a higher average, and the net effect is more than what burn status & extra fire imbue damamge provides . . . but it was close. Finally, IME, that extra ~50 damage just doesn't usually make a difference very often . . . but I guess it only takes that 1 time to make it worth it. If status effect played a bigger role, I would probably go with light imbue, but since it doesn't (can be autpoilled/fire shield away) I don't - I use the fire imbue.

saying that you are downplaying it a little is a bit of an understatement. there's more than a 50 damage difference, because the imbue is added to your magic damage, and then multiplied by the % of the nuke. so, for the lvl 46 nukes, that's 250%. at lvl 66-7, it's 300%.

you argue that the peak damage is more important, and i completely agree that in most nuker fights that's true. but let's take a look at those peak numbers, shall we?

let's take the lvl 46 skills(i'm going to use the numbers you posted for imbues as level 61, because the damage difference between them stays relative. although it may skew the numbers for these slightly, it gets the point across):

fire = (404(nuke) + 446(imbue)) * 250% = 2125
light = (420(nuke) + 394(imbue)) * 250% = 2035

for the lvl 6x nukes(these imbue numbers are right, of course):

fire = (854 + 446) * 300% = 3900
light = (859 + 394) * 300% = 3759

so as you can see, fire actually has the higher peak damage. of course, these are only the base damage figures, since magic balance, attack ratio, opp's mag defense, etc play into it. but, i would assume that for this type of comparison, those other figures woujld want to be kept the same. however, as there's a multiplier in there somewhere(otherwise a nuke over 3900 would be impossible), it obvious that fire's already higher peak damage would then be muliplied again into a higher number.

now, the next part of my post will assume that you have both nukes, since that is the most popular choice, even among people who don't follow fly's guide blindly.

now, of course i didn't take into account the shock or burn effect. however, it's immediately clear to me that nuker would try to one-shot as much as possible. so, if you ARE fighting something or someone you can one shot, fire is the best option.

however, if you know you'll need more than one shot to kill it, the best tactic to me would be to nuke it with light, then fire as the killer. if your lightning goes off, you'll have reduced the enemy's parry so you can use fire, which has more consistent damage AND a higher peak. with reduced parry, it will translate to even more damage, when comapred to lightning.

so what is this thread even about? both of you say that you shoujld get both fire and light, and i for one have to agree, even though i've never played a nuker. it just seems pretty obvious that you will kill faster with this combo than any other, no matter which is your 'main'. also, why didn't you just post this IN his guide thread? i doubt another topic had to be made to reply to a topic already in existence. i'm guessing you just wanted it to be seen, right?

-----------------------

as for fly's guide, yes, it disgusts me how so many people follow it blindly, but the same is true with any guide, and always will be. some people are just will not experiment, because a) they're lazy, b) they lack to time to reroll a character, due to being only a casual gamer, or c) they are naive, and assume that a sticky-writer is always right. of course there's other reasons, but it happens with any build guide i've ever seen for any game.

of course, i'm in complete agreement with you about the mastery level/cap thing, because i still haven't seen anything about no level 150 except in his guide. maybe he plucked it from thin air, maybe not, but it IS true that most players will never make it there.

but, even so, in his guide he also stated that it was for those that wanted to be the strongest at endgame. so, it's safe to assume he wrote the guide for someone who planned to be capped sooner or later, and not just for "some sub Lv30 person".



although i disagree with quite a bit of fly's guide(especially his blade section), the nuker section seemed to be one of the best parts of it. however, opening up a whole new topic bashing it just seems disrespectful to me, like you just walked up an slapped him in the face. especially considering that it seems(to me at least) that you want people to blindly follow YOUR word, instead of his. your peak damage theory is already disproven, just because i wanted to dig deeper into it. most people would'nt do that though, and would assume your numbers were right, just because there are numbers there to make it look good.

if you wanted people to dig deeper and research before starting a build(which you claim is the motive behind it), then this seems to be the wrong way to go about it. maybe a more technical explanation of the math behind it, or something along those lines, would be better, instead of just bashing one particular guide.

i disagree with fly on a few things, like i said, but i still respect him for posting it in the first place, where most people wouldn't take the time OR the effort.

Geobot wrote:
fire = (404(nuke) + 446(imbue)) * 250% = 2125
light = (420(nuke) + 394(imbue)) * 250% = 2035

for the lvl 6x nukes(these imbue numbers are right, of course):

fire = (854 + 446) * 300% = 3900
light = (859 + 394) * 300% = 3759

so as you can see, fire actually has the higher peak damage. of course, these are only the base damage figures, since magic balance, attack ratio, opp's mag defense, etc play into it. but, i would assume that for this type of comparison, those other figures woujld want to be kept the same. however, as there's a multiplier in there somewhere(otherwise a nuke over 3900 would be impossible), it obvious that fire's already higher peak damage would then be muliplied again into a higher number.

I think nukes over 3900 are possible not due a "hidden multiplier" but rather due the fact that your weapons mag dmg also plays a big part in your nuke dmg.

Lol me not fallow any guide, me Quotes : Experience is the best teacher ~Stacie AKA Ryoko ( or something i forgot the actual sentance lol )

CHeers lol