S/s Nuker

[Hideoki]

Ok, so an int build in garms, compared to an into build in pro but using fire is meant to be better? This is assuming you are fighting another int build in pvp also, ideally you base pvp vs an str for full effect, and have 2 sets, int and str pvp's.

anyway, i agree with your points, i do however feel fire for pure int builds, isnt exactly an essential, you dont need mag def buffs as much as you need cold, so even as a 3rd mastery, cold will be more important than fire. Force ive already said "for me" takes priority over fire after 110 cap, stun is enough for this, even the other vital spot skills are pretty sweet, but stun is the reason for this, nice for the extra mp which could aid the snow shield. Then its between fire and light as your 2nd main mastery, basing the build on being built to stand well vs str players, you will go protector, loss of mag def, which will effect pvp vs other ints....but unless you're full sun, the majority of ints will be going pro, or like mentioned before, have 2 sets! Fire's passive is phy damage, the imbue is the best for power, and the nuke are also nice ofcourse, however the light passive is more usefull, speed is usefull as this may come to a point where on the opposite end of the scale, str builds are dropping light, giving ints a massive spd boost, mag + buf also with light is good, and the imbue on light isnt that much worse off than fire, light nukes are also decent.

So this is imo obviously, but a good no wep nuker build by 110 cap is 110 force / 110 Light / 80 Cold.

And i may even consder 110 force / 110 cold / but i think cold at 80 gives pretty good phy def anyway. I will also make sure i have 2 sets, vs another int who chooses fire over light wil be worse off with my build in garments, even if they are

The problem is, you cant use force as a 3rd, it has to be full 110 for the stun skill.

[raphaell666]

Ok, so an int build in garms, compared to an into build in pro but using fire is meant to be better? This is assuming you are fighting another int build in pvp also, ideally you base pvp vs an str for full effect, and have 2 sets, int and str pvp's.
Not meant to be better, both would be strong and btw there's "never" a best one. Why would the one with fire use protector anyways? Both would have the same cold. I didn't understand exactly what you meant with the rest of this part. In 1vs1 pvping, the one with fire would very probably deal better. In group pvping, the one with lightning would probably do better. Various reasons for both.

anyway, i agree with your points, i do however feel fire for pure int builds, isnt exactly an essential, you dont need mag def buffs as much as you need cold, so even as a 3rd mastery, cold will be more important than fire.
Yes. They do not need fire, but they do need cold. They do not need lightning either. This is what I'm trying to say. Again, there's "never" a best one.

Force ive already said "for me" takes priority over fire after 110 cap, stun is enough for this, even the other vital spot skills are pretty sweet, but stun is the reason for this, nice for the extra mp which could aid the snow shield.
I'd prefer bicheon over force, because of KD, chains can give some debuffs too, as well as fear stun and various other debuffs, as well as the shield technique series and the passive. Just my opinion nevertheless. You said fire didn't have a place for a INT. I'm proving you wrong.

Then its between fire and light as your 2nd main mastery, basing the build on being built to stand well vs str players, you will go protector, loss of mag def, which will effect pvp vs other ints....but unless you're full sun, the majority of ints will be going pro, or like mentioned before, have 2 sets!
Basing on fighting against STRs? Well I wouldn't do that, I'd find one overall better against all kinds (with balanced defenses), but whatever. If it's INT with maxed cold, I'd go garment doesn't matter what the other masteries are.

Fire's passive is phy damage,
This does not help pure INTs. Only slightly if it's a hybrid.

the imbue is the best for power,
Best for higher magical damage, yes. It deals approx. 18% more damage in average than lightning's imbue.
and the nuke are also nice ofcourse,
It's not just nice, fire offers 2-3 nukes which are all much stronger than lightning's ones, and fire nukes have bigger range too.

however the light passive is more usefull,
Wait, parry ratio is useful? What are you talking about? One simple test for you, you know lightning imbue, right? Use it on a mob until you get shock effect. Shock effect reduces your enemies parry ratio by HALF. Yes, 50% less parry ratio. Do you notice a increase in your damage on that specific mob after it? I don't. EDIT: It does help on the long run making you waste less pots, but it won't change anything in any pvp situation.

speed is usefull as this may come to a point where on the opposite end of the scale, str builds are dropping light,
STRs dropping light? Since when? You are wrong, they in general are not dropping it. A few do drop it nevertheless. You cannot base your build on something like that.

giving ints a massive spd boost, mag + buf also with light is good,
Yeah.

and the imbue on light isnt that much worse off than fire, light nukes are also decent.
Lightning nukes are nothing compared to fire's ones. Lightning offers one strong nuke at 100 cap, the other one is like 15 lvls lower. Fire offers 2-3 strong nukes, and a few more slightly weaker, all of them with big range. Lightning's range is smaller. Lightning offers shouts which are somewhat invaluable for INTs anyways, but you won't actually need them if you have a weapon tree.

So this is imo obviously, but a good no wep nuker build by 110 cap is 110 force / 110 Light / 80 Cold.
Why not 110fire/110cold/80lightning? Way better in my opinion. But let's not argue about 110 cap, as it's not even here and we can not prove anything.

And i may even consder 110 force / 110 cold / but i think cold at 80 gives pretty good phy def anyway.
It doesn't. The difference in physical defense is simply huge. 110cold gives pretty much THREE TIMES the defense 80 cold gives. Let's stop talking about 110 cap though. We are at 100 cap.

I will also make sure i have 2 sets, vs another int who chooses fire over light wil be worse off with my build in garments, even if they are

[Hideoki]

Fire's passive is phy damage,
This does not help pure INTs. Only slightly if it's a hybrid.

thats a reason why fire isnt the best option, the passive is useless, atleast u can use light's passive to good use. And also this is no wep nukers, i havent considered wep nukers in my reasons, dropping fire is imo the way no wep nukers fill the void that wep nukers have had over then, the stun skill. And im talking about 110 cap as a future reference haha, i said straight out, 110 cap no wep nukers go 100 fire / 100 light / 100 cold , and if you wanna go 110 cold over light be my guest haha as a no wep nuker you dont wanna rely on the def, u want the attack to be as maxed as possible, the only good thing fire brings...but my choice is light over fire its personal choice, but imo fire is worse off than light due to the fact fire wont aid you as much, light nukes arent weak remember and with 110 force, the debuffing + light nukes own fire nukes by themselves

ive said fire has no place for pure itn at 110 cap due to forces stun skill, it gives more than enough reason to drop fire....or if u insit on using fire and dropping light lol, aslong as you keep force i think thats the best way for no wep guys to go. So tbh, we shouldnt discuss fire, as ive only thought of what i feel the weaker of light/fire is, and i went fire due to the fact i would gain more from light, than i do fire. Light imbue is good, spd +, passive that i can actually use, parry +, good nukes etc + debuff with vital spots likely gonna overtake the guys who decide against using force. Hardest hitters will be fire/force no doubt, as fire i wont deny is the strongest. decide against force, you will want wep skills lol, cus in the stunt ime i could likely hit atleast 2 nukes+shout, another skill light gives over fire, shouts are very usefull at both pve and pvp.

And regardless of what it says on paper, fire nukes dont hit that much harder than light lol. i should know ive been pure force on my isro char adn sued them both, as ive always been full force fire/light/cold

[raphaell666]

thats a reason why fire isnt the best option, the passive is useless, atleast u can use light's passive to good use.
Yeah, sort of.

And also this is no wep nukers, i havent considered wep nukers in my reasons,
This no weapon nukers is kind of bull shit, for me a no weapon nuker is fire/cold/light, I dunno why but force tree is in some way similar to a weapon tree. If you take it it makes you unable to get all 3 actual force trees (firelightcold).

dropping fire is imo the way no wep nukers fill the void that wep nukers have had over then, the stun skill.
The stun skill alone is in no way going to fill the void that the no-weap nukers have. Only a weapon tree could possibly substitute another. Force does not.

And im talking about 110 cap as a future reference haha, i said straight out, 110 cap no wep nukers go 100 fire / 100 light / 100 cold ,
Whatever. I sincerely don't see a reason for doing that nevertheless.

and if you wanna go 110 cold over light be my guest haha as a no wep nuker you dont wanna rely on the def, u want the attack to be as maxed as possible,
A pure int's attack is already high enough, if, like you are saying, all you want is maxed damage, you must go with spear too, and that's a simply terrible idea with 80 cold as a pure INT.

the only good thing fire brings...
Fire brings several things, as I've already said, not only damage.

but my choice is light over fire its personal choice,
Yes, I understand that. But we in this topic are trying to help the OP, and you said that fire is useless, I'm proving you wrong.

but imo fire is worse off than light due to the fact fire wont aid you as much,
I still can't understand why you think that. They are both equal from my point of view, it depends on what you prefer.

light nukes arent weak remember
Yes, but fire nukes are stronger. I never said lightning nukes are weak anyways.

and with 110 force, the debuffing + light nukes own fire nukes by themselves
What would you say about debuff + fire nukes then? lol.

Again, what I'm trying to get at is: no tree is useless, it just depends on what you prefer.

As it seems you have edited your reply:

ive said fire has no place for pure itn at 110 cap due to forces stun skill, it gives more than enough reason to drop fire....
I beg to differ. There's no reason to drop fire. The same reason as force's stun skill, could be applied to heuksal or bicheon. That's nowhere near a reason to drop anything.

or if u insit on using fire and dropping light lol, aslong as you keep force i think thats the best way for no wep guys to go. So tbh, we shouldnt discuss fire,
For the third (fourh?) time, you said fire is useless, I'm proving you wrong.

as ive only thought of what i feel the weaker of light/fire is, and i went fire due to the fact i would gain more from light, than i do fire. Light imbue is good, spd +, passive that i can actually use, parry +, good nukes etc + debuff with vital spots likely gonna overtake the guys who decide against using force. Hardest hitters will be fire/force no doubt, as fire i wont deny is the strongest.
Cleric skills = force debuffs fails. In a group pvp, that'd mean pretty much your doom if you leave cold at 80. The point in a no-weap nuker is being good at group pvping, and a force user is not. So 'd classify a force user somewhat as a "weapon" nuker, because it'd only be good at 1vs1 pvping, and when you are NOT fightning someone with cleric buff. If they have cleric buffs you are simply doomed. I therefore do not think force is a good idea for a solid build.

decide against force, you will want wep skills lol, cus in the stunt ime i could likely hit atleast 2 nukes+shout, another skill light gives over fire, shouts are very usefull at both pve and pvp.
Yes, I've already said lion shouts are useful.

And regardless of what it says on paper, fire nukes dont hit that much harder than light lol. i should know ive been pure force on my isro char adn sued them both, as ive always been full force fire/light/cold
I know, I never stated fire will in fact hit harder than lightning, I simply said they are somewhat equal, it depends on what you prefer. Note I said fire nukes itself are stronger when comparing them, not that fire nukes will hit harder than lightning, because if you have maxed fire, but no lightning, that magical % attack increase will make your nukes probably hit as much as lightnings. But the point is:
fire offers magical defense, fire wall, destealth/invisible and a wide variety of nukes to choose from;
lightning offers basically mobility. Choose whatever you prefer.

EDIT: And just for the record, I wouldn't suggest a fire/force int nuker build, because only nukes is not a good idea. Lightning/force is slightly better because of the shouts, but still. If you want to debuff go for warlock, it's WAY more effective. With the euros addition force became nearly obsolete at group pvping. Right now it's basically only useful at 1vs1 pvping against chinese, as most euros have cleric subclass. And most people now learned how to counter force with special pills. I do not advise at all going for a int force build. I'd prefer a STR with force, if not then no force at all.

[Hideoki]

Hm, this could go on forever haha.

But yeah, i never stated spear, this is an s/s thread, that would change everything. Spear nukers should probs stay as wep nukers imo, you lose the shield and though you will nuke harder, i think you need the wep skills. i guess with the stun from force, and vital spot debuffs this build even as a no wep "spear" would be lethal in terms of overall damage.

[raphaell666]

Hm, this could go on forever haha.

But yeah, i never stated spear, this is an s/s thread, that would change everything. Spear nukers should probs stay as wep nukers imo, you lose the shield and though you will nuke harder, i think you need the wep skills. i guess with the stun from force, and vital spot debuffs this build even as a no wep "spear" would be lethal in terms of overall damage.

Yes, even more if you notice that you never reply to my complete reply, you just take a very very small part of it and try arguing against it, lol. I just threw spear there because you said all you want is damage. If that was true you wouldn't go for s/s. Again, for the third or fourth time, what I'm trying to get at is: no tree is useless, it just depends on what you prefer. Do you agree?

Nevertheless I started this because you said fire is useless, now it seems like you are trying to change the subject, this is why it could in fact go on forever.

[Hideoki]

I actually dont have time to discuss it bro tbh haha. But if you want i will later, i said fire is useless for no wep nukers as force will be more usefull imo, so not saying fire is 1005 useless, just id rather use force O.o....i dont wanna go into talk of what to wear, spears etc lmao.

[raphaell666]

u.u

I actually dont have time to discuss it bro tbh haha.
lol
But if you want i will later, i said fire is useless for no wep nukers as force will be more usefull imo, so not saying fire is 1005 useless, just id rather use force O.o....
As said, you can use force with fire. But still, what you said is that fire is useless:

Spoiler!

any1 who is taking 100 fire ie...as your main imbue over light is stupid..lmao, fire wont be worth shit come later caps if you plan on having light buffs...which im assuming you will be as an int build O.o lol. 100 fire/ 100 light / 100 cold is awesome haha till 110 cap, then you need to drop fire and use force! thats for no wep nukers obv (this last part I underlined was simply ridiculous u.u)

i dont wanna go into talk of what to wear, spears etc lmao.
Have you read what I wrote? -_- "I just threw spear there because you said all you want is damage. If that was true you wouldn't go for s/s. Again, for the third or fourth time, what I'm trying to get at is: no tree is useless, it just depends on what you prefer. Do you agree?"

I fail to understand what else is there to be discussed. If you find something reasonable which I already haven't replied to, I'll answer, if you don't, I think it's enough. You said fire is useless, and I replied to that, I have no idea of what exactly you are trying to say now.

[dutchleader]

I wouldnt go 100 cold only for the more phy def buff. Cleric gives you a way better one.

If you intend on depending on a cleric all the time, and (even if buffed by cleric) losing 20% snow shield, maxed ice wall, the passive, and maxed freezing/frostbiting skills, do whatever you want. Notice that 100cold with buff + passive gives MORE than the cleric physical defense buff maxed alone. If you sum the cleric buff + cold passive, you'll have a load of physical defense.

Uh , notice I said I wouldnt go 100 cold purely for the def buf. I dont see how you would have to rely on a cleric all the time, solo pve should be fine without cold def buff. ANd in fw /job which party doesnt have a cleric subbed euro?

Anyway , I wouldnt take the phy/mag defense buffs to serious. Doesnt matter to much in the dmg you receive and in group pvp I doubt there isnt a cleric around willing to buff you. I would consider mag dmg increase/ghost walk, snowshield, amount of nukes ( in which fire excells and with a s/s I feel like you need them), the walls.

[raphaell666]

Uh , notice I said I wouldnt go 100 cold purely for the def buf. I dont see how you would have to rely on a cleric all the time, solo pve should be fine without cold def buff. ANd in fw /job which party doesnt have a cleric subbed euro?

Yeah, but what about 1vs1 pvp? And notice that not having the physical defense from cold would probably considerably increase the amount of HP pots you'll use when grinding, as well as decreasing your survivability at it. And in a party, as I've said, your cold passive maxed + the euro buff would result in a load of defense. Also you wrote: "I wouldnt go 100 cold only for the more phy def buff. Cleric gives you a way better one." and as I've said cold gives considerably more physical defense than the cleric buff, and the cleric buff alone does make a noticeable difference, imagine cold then, and imagine cleric buff +cold passive. It's something you HAVE to consider.

Anyway , I wouldnt take the phy/mag defense buffs to serious. Doesnt matter to much in the dmg you receive and in group pvp I doubt there isnt a cleric around willing to buff you.

Even though it's not that much, it does make a noticeable difference. And this difference may be essential for deciding who will win or lose. Also hence what I said just above.

I would consider mag dmg increase/ghost walk, snowshield, amount of nukes ( in which fire excells and with a s/s I feel like you need them), the walls.

I'd consider those as well as "normal" defense buffs and passives. But yeah, it'll vary from what one think is more important.

[TheRealAnswer1]

And if someone chooses 100 bich/light/ice, they will instantly get frozen/burned/shocked/poisoned and wont that slow/cancel most of your skills you use when you're frozen even with pills and all.

I just started my s/s nuker and I'm in the same boat =/ 100 bicheon 100 cold 100 fire or light, if you go 89 ice 11 fire you get the fire shield but lose the huge phys def and max snow.

[Rav3r]

Old skool nuker build 100 bich 100 light 100 ice =] ftw

[KillAndChill]

Old skool nuker build 100 bich 100 light 100 ice =] ftw

Yea get frozen every time you pvp. =/

[Rav3r]

Yep and the extra defence =] lol what would ya do without it haha