Should all 3rd party software be condemned?

[Aprone]

Anyone that has spent 2 minutes on these forums knows that this community does not condone the use of bots. Dozens of us have voiced our concerns about the problem.

For a change, lets consider the other 3rd party programs which are not bots. Does this community sneer at any-and-all forms of game modification? Most of us here have run across bots farming xp and gold... but what about the programs that do not?

For the sake of explaining what I mean, here is an example. My clan has developed (among other things) a shop/stall add-on that scrolls the word SALE to draw potential buyers to it. A small clip of it running can be seen on our website, under the "About us" tab.

http://www.ivorydragonclan.com/

Let me know what you all think. I have been trying to be active on the board but I am still very new here. I would like to know, from the start, if I should avoid mentioning these types of things here. Thanks.

[Aprone]

I appreciate those who quickly came and voted. It would also be nice to hear your thoughts as well.

This particular example does not level a character or farm items.
It is not spamming messages or harassing players.
It is not taking up space on the server any more than an idle stall keeper would anyways.

I would like to know why so many of you have so easily seen this as a black-and-white case. I think there is some grey area here.

[Fat_Smurf]

it's giving advantage over other player not using a third party program.



enough said

[chesticles]

Silkroad Forums strictly prohibits the following:

* Promotion, distribution, or support of botting, hacking, or the use of other 3rd party programs.
* Sale of digital items, gold or accounts for cash value.
* Hack programs, no-cd's, keygens or bots for any games.
* Inappropriate content or materials.
* Advertising and spam in forums or chat channels.
* Links to malicious sites or downloads.

[Aprone]

it's giving advantage over other player not using a third party program.

Good point, but should we also then shun the use of teamspeak, ventrillo, or AIM? For clans or groups of players, these give a huge advantage over those who are using only the game and nothing more.

[Aprone]

Silkroad Forums strictly prohibits the following:

* Promotion, distribution, or support of botting, hacking, or the use of other 3rd party programs.
* Sale of digital items, gold or accounts for cash value.
* Hack programs, no-cd's, keygens or bots for any games.
* Inappropriate content or materials.
* Advertising and spam in forums or chat channels.
* Links to malicious sites or downloads.

Basically the reason for this post was to find out what you consider a "3rd party program". Is it absolutely ANYTHING? or just software that is used to level or farm for item/gold?

[chesticles]

it's giving advantage over other player not using a third party program.

Good point, but should we also then shun the use of teamspeak, ventrillo, or AIM? For clans or groups of players, these give a huge advantage over those who are using only the game and nothing more.

no it doesnt all vent or ts does is allow you to hear your guildmates rather then reading what your guildmates type

[chesticles]

Silkroad Forums strictly prohibits the following:

* Promotion, distribution, or support of botting, hacking, or the use of other 3rd party programs.
* Sale of digital items, gold or accounts for cash value.
* Hack programs, no-cd's, keygens or bots for any games.
* Inappropriate content or materials.
* Advertising and spam in forums or chat channels.
* Links to malicious sites or downloads.

Basically the reason for this post was to find out what you consider a "3rd party program". Is it absolutely ANYTHING? or just software that is used to level or farm for item/gold?

a 3rd party program is anything other then what is included in the sro_client

[Deacon]

Your site is to ugly to browse it. + i don't get it

[Aprone]

no it doesnt all vent or ts does is allow you to hear your guildmates rather then reading what your guildmates type

Hearing your teammates is an advantage over reading what they type. Both are just getting their words across. Seeing a static or scrolling stall name are also both just getting their words across. There is no new information by using the scrolling one... it is just catchier.

[chesticles]

Your site is to ugly to browse it. + i don't get it

hey thats not nice the site wasn't too bad it was a little hard to read the menu bar on the left with all those chip things but there also wasn't much going on on the site.

[chesticles]

no it doesnt all vent or ts does is allow you to hear your guildmates rather then reading what your guildmates type

Hearing your teammates is an advantage over reading what they type. Both are just getting their words across. Seeing a static or scrolling stall name are also both just getting their words across. There is no new information by using the scrolling one... it is just catchier.

i understand where you are coming from but on this forum its not allowed.

[Aprone]

Your site is to ugly to browse it. + i don't get it

hey thats not nice the site wasn't too bad it was a little hard to read the menu bar on the left with all those chip things but there also wasn't much going on on the site.

Thank you chesticles, I agree that wasn't very nice (also off topic). FYI the artwork is still being tweaked since the site is still under construction.

ok, get ready to get back on topic... ready?... GO!

[Aprone]

i understand where you are coming from but on this forum its not allowed.

That is all I needed to hear. Rules are rules, I just wanted to know someone understood what I was saying before they shouted "not acceptable!". TY

[RMP]

it's giving advantage over other player not using a third party program.

Good point, but should we also then shun the use of teamspeak, ventrillo, or AIM? For clans or groups of players, these give a huge advantage over those who are using only the game and nothing more.

But Ventrilo, TS, AIM, Winamp, [insert your own soft here] aren't luring/injecting info to/from sro client.

Salu2.

[Aprone]

it's giving advantage over other player not using a third party program.

Good point, but should we also then shun the use of teamspeak, ventrillo, or AIM? For clans or groups of players, these give a huge advantage over those who are using only the game and nothing more.

But Ventrilo, TS, AIM, Winamp, [insert your own soft here] aren't luring/injecting info to/from sro client.

Salu2.

I believe that would be an irrelevent detail. TS and Ventrilo actually are accepting input while you are playing, it is just from the background. How you interact with your program should never label it... the issues lie in what the program does. If TS or Ventrilo read what you typed into Silkroad and spoke the words allowed to your teammates (in the event you had no microphone) I doubt you would suddenly decide to ban it's use. I have seen such a feature in other games actually.

[Nyahgis]

No, I would not consider the use of the program you introduced to be illegal. It's right up there with the zoom hack, which used to be a stand-alone tool, and widely used. [Hell, even I used the zoom hack. Although many might not remember this, back in the day, you could only zoom out about 5~8 in game feet from your character. If you were getting ganged by a giant, if would fill up your entire screen. The zoom hack fixed this isue.] Neither zoom hack nor this scroller/spammer brings about 'unfair' advantages to such significance as a bot. I mean, common, if you wish to be this anal when it comes to leveling the playing field, why don't we start bitching about hardware? I use a G15 keyboard and a Razor Copperhead mouse. I can macro to hell and back with these two [granted the lag doesn't help much], but it still gives me an advantage over other users. I also run the game on max settings without a single issue and can set my rendering ranges to max. Another advantage over other users... I mean, common, where do you draw the line?

[We are talking about tools that ENHANCE your game, not play your game here.]

[Aprone]

*various wise comments*

Thank you!

I am glad to hear from someone who sees this like I do. Thus far it has been me vs the world. Hehe. Oh well, I like those odds.

[chesticles]

No, I would not consider the use of the program you introduced to be illegal. It's right up there with the zoom hack, which used to be a stand-alone tool, and widely used. [Hell, even I used the zoom hack. Although many might not remember this, back in the day, you could only zoom out about 5~8 in game feet from your character. If you were getting ganged by a giant, if would fill up your entire screen. The zoom hack fixed this isue.] Neither zoom hack nor this scroller/spammer brings about 'unfair' advantages to such significance as a bot. I mean, common, if you wish to be this anal when it comes to leveling the playing field, why don't we start bitching about hardware? I use a G15 keyboard and a Razor Copperhead mouse. I can macro to hell and back with these two [granted the lag doesn't help much], but it still gives me an advantage over other users. I also run the game on max settings without a single issue and can set my rendering ranges to max. Another advantage over other users... I mean, common, where do you draw the line?

[We are talking about tools that ENHANCE your game, not play your game here.]

im not disagreeing im just stating what is and isnt allowed on this forum according to the Forum Rules

[ChakjiGoGao]

OMG my OS is a third party program!

*quicly formats HD to not get banned*

[nightbloom]

If you must alter the normal operation of the game, then it is illegal. In order for you to have a scrolling shop sign, you must have game guard altered and some kind of alteration to the game client. That is the illegal part. I also use a macro keyboard and a G5 mouse. These do not alter the client as created by JM, hence, not illegal. You are mixing apples and oranges.


And I gotta say, your clan is site isnt pretty. Could you have made the font a little bigger? I couldnt read it properly.

[Aprone]

If you must alter the normal operation of the game, then it is illegal. In order for you to have a scrolling shop sign, you must have game guard altered and some kind of alteration to the game client. That is the illegal part. I also use a macro keyboard and a G5 mouse. These do not alter the client as created by JM, hence, not illegal. You are mixing apples and oranges.


And I gotta say, your clan is site isnt pretty. Could you have made the font a little bigger? I couldnt read it properly.

Nightbloom, the scrolling shop does not alter the game client or game guard in any way, shape, or form... so we are Not comparing apples and oranges. As for the site, I'm open to suggestions... it is a work in progress.

Chesticles, I knew what you meant by your post... you were just letting me know how the topic fell according to the forum's rules. I am glad you did, it was something I wanted to know.

[Infstdraynor]

OMG my OS is a third party program!

*quicly formats HD to not get banned*

Exactly. If vent and TS were considered as a third party program, the OS would be as well. A third party program would be a program that would interfere and interact with the second program, which would be your client. I don't see how vent and TS would in anyway interact with SRO directly, other than you're getting more informed, such as someone on vent telling you that a 5 star trade is ahead. If this is considered as interaction, then you would need to close down any means of communication, which is absurd.

[chesticles]

If you must alter the normal operation of the game, then it is illegal. In order for you to have a scrolling shop sign, you must have game guard altered and some kind of alteration to the game client. That is the illegal part. I also use a macro keyboard and a G5 mouse. These do not alter the client as created by JM, hence, not illegal. You are mixing apples and oranges.


And I gotta say, your clan is site isnt pretty. Could you have made the font a little bigger? I couldnt read it properly.

Nightbloom, the scrolling shop does not alter the game client or game guard in any way, shape, or form... so we are Not comparing apples and oranges. As for the site, I'm open to suggestions... it is a work in progress.

Chesticles, I knew what you meant by your post... you were just letting me know how the topic fell according to the forum's rules. I am glad you did, it was something I wanted to know.

ok 1st off : 2nd: so this is a program that runs along with sro and not included in sro?(meaning there is no altering of the client correct me if im wrong)

[nightbloom]

If you must alter the normal operation of the game, then it is illegal. In order for you to have a scrolling shop sign, you must have game guard altered and some kind of alteration to the game client. That is the illegal part. I also use a macro keyboard and a G5 mouse. These do not alter the client as created by JM, hence, not illegal. You are mixing apples and oranges.


And I gotta say, your clan is site isnt pretty. Could you have made the font a little bigger? I couldnt read it properly.

Nightbloom, the scrolling shop does not alter the game client or game guard in any way, shape, or form... so we are Not comparing apples and oranges. As for the site, I'm open to suggestions... it is a work in progress.

Chesticles, I knew what you meant by your post... you were just letting me know how the topic fell according to the forum's rules. I am glad you did, it was something I wanted to know.

Being as how game guard hides the game process and prevents other programs from accessing it, Im not sure how your program could possibly be affecting the game without gg bypass.

My suggestion for your site? Try a program other than MS Frontpage. That program is such a dinosaur. There are lots of places online that offer you premade scripts and such. Yours s just a pic with text and looks very 1993.

[Aprone]

Exactly. If vent and TS were considered as a third party program, the OS would be as well.

I do not agree with this at all. I don't even know where to begin to explain all the reasons this deduction is wrong. Does someone with more patience than me care to give it a go? lol.

[Aprone]

ok 1st off : 2nd: so this is a program that runs along with sro and not included in sro?(meaning there is no altering of the client correct me if im wrong)

You are correct sir. I believe this covers both nightbloom's and your latest posted questions. Explaining how it all works would be getting Way off topic... plus I don't really think that is important. Bottom line: Does not alter the client in any way. Does not alter or bypass the game guard. It does not alter or intercept the packets of information to and from the client.


nightbloom, I will consider your advice for the site. Thanks.

[Infstdraynor]

Exactly. If vent and TS were considered as a third party program, the OS would be as well.

I do not agree with this at all. I don't even know where to begin to explain all the reasons this deduction is wrong. Does someone with more patience than me care to give it a go? lol.

Alright, since you failed to see the connection, I'll do it for you.

First off, suppose what you said was true. Vent is a third party program. We then obtain the characteristics of vent in order to define this 'third party program''s parameters.

Definition of vent:

Ventrilo is a popular proprietary Voice over IP program with clients for Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X. Most users of Ventrilo use a headset or microphone and use the program to talk freely to each other, similar to a telephone conference call.

This definition tells us,
a. There are no mentions on the usage of it with the sro client.
b. Since interface with Silkroad would be in means of 1. direct changing of opcodes. 2. winapi hook of keyboard and mouse in order to macro in sro client. 3. interrupt call of keyboard and mouse in order to macro in sro.
No mentions of any exists in the definition.

Now let's apply these to the OS, which matches perfectly. If you consider vent/TS as a third program by parameters you specified, these parameters then would be applicable to the OS, amongst too many other things.

[nightbloom]

ok 1st off : 2nd: so this is a program that runs along with sro and not included in sro?(meaning there is no altering of the client correct me if im wrong)

You are correct sir. I believe this covers both nightbloom's and your latest posted questions. Explaining how it all works would be getting Way off topic... plus I don't really think that is important. Bottom line: Does not alter the client in any way. Does not alter or bypass the game guard. It does not alter or intercept the packets of information to and from the client.


nightbloom, I will consider your advice for the site. Thanks.

If it doesnt alter JMs files (incl packets) as they were created by JM, then its not illegal I guess. But any alteration, including PK2 editing, has been clearly defined as illegal by MD. I certainly wouldnt want something as painfully obvious as a flashing neon stall sign pointing me out for investigation by GMs..... Im sure there something illegal in your program, you just arent being clear as to what it is.

Anyone is free to use whatever third party programs they wish, getting your account banned is the risk you take. I can tell from your site that you like gambling.

[Infstdraynor]

...

...

If it doesnt alter JMs files (incl packets) as they were created by JM, then its not illegal I guess. But any alteration, including PK2 editing, has been clearly defined as illegal by MD. I certainly wouldnt want something as painfully obvious as a flashing neon stall sign pointing me out for investigation by GMs..... Im sure there something illegal in your program, you just arent being clear as to what it is.

Anyone is free to use whatever third party programs they wish, getting your account banned is the risk you take. I can tell from your site that you like gambling.

I guess you mean the memory region of the client as well? What's illegal about his program would be either 1. His macro probably hooks the mouse, changes the position of the mouse, a left click of the mouse, hooks the keyboard, put the information down, change the position of the mouse again, and adds a left click to confirm, or 2. Packet editing, which is like nightbloom mentioned, illegal.