Question for all those "legits" out there *Poll added*

[Trace]

I doubt it. Even in ECSRO ppl are willing to bot. When botting become a habit, or let's say addicted, they're not gonna hand grind even if the exp is set to 20x rate.

If only they were smart enough to venture out and play games they like, ones without grinding.

[ping_lo]

Don't say that I'm a bot supporter, because I'm not making my friends **** off because they cheat.

What do you consider a "bot supporter" then? I don't support cigarette smokers. I don't allow them to smoke in my home or car. If I am around them in public, I keep my distance while they are smoking. I don't support bots. I don't want them in my server (home) while they are botting. If you allow them in your "home" while they smoke/bot, aren't you in a way supporting them?

but you're still friends with them. you're not gonna stop being friends with someone just because they smoke. this is the point that Goseki is trying to make. Just because they bot, doesn't mean they can't be cool people. I don't smoke, i don't support smoking, but my best friend smokes. Same with botting, i don't bot, i don't support it, but my entire server bots. I'm still friends with them.

The point that all of you miss is that there are friends and then there are friends. What do you all think I just completely cut off friends etc who bot? Would it surprise you to know that I was "friends" with the GMs of some of the bigger botting guilds on my server back in the day. And that I could ask something of them and often vice versa and they would do it. I would never let them in my guild union or community unless they stopped botting etc. But I still talked to them. I made it a point that the botting was wrong and it bothered me. And no I did not nag them daily about it just to nag but any time something relevant came up I would say "well we could let you if you didn't bot" etc. You all are like bot go ahead it is alright we don't care. That is our problem that is what you don't get. You gave up being legitimate and espousing it. You acknowledged them as right and equal. You gave them Status. You gave them comfort. You gave them support. You helped create the problem. I didn't. You all share in the blame for what the game has become. I don't.

I actively fought botting and botters. But for those that were actually semi ok people I still talked to them. But I never accepted them as equal or right. Because they were not. I had several former botters in my guild. I brought them in to a legitimate community and showed them what the game really was and what community really was. I also still lost one or two to botting. And when I found out, they were out of the guild no matter how much I liked them. I did not make the choice to boot them. They did when they botted. That was all up front. Nothing personal. Botting is not part of the game. Period.

[BuDo]

I doubt it. Even in ECSRO ppl are willing to bot. When botting become a habit, or let's say addicted, they're not gonna hand grind even if the exp is set to 20x rate.

If only they were smart enough to venture out and play games they like, ones without grinding.

They are not stupid.Just conflicted within themselves. They obviously love playing the game even though they complain. I'm sure you've done things in your life that goes against common sense but you did them anyways. Just like the rest of us.

[Trace]

They are not stupid.Just conflicted within themselves. They obviously love playing the game even though they complain.

Stupid, confuse, ignorant, inner conflict, we're just arguing semantics. Love playing the game? I don't know what motivates the individual. To each their own.

[Goseki]

Hmm, well I guess now that I've looked back. I'm in the wrong for this topic. It was suppose to just allow us to all express our views on how we see legits and why we stayed for so long. Srry if any flaming occured. We all OBVIOUSLY have differing views to some different degree of how we see legits and how we treat botters. It's been interesting reading everyone's opinion on them so far. I guess i'm just no as hardcore about the botting issue, so I'll take some of the blame for it getting so bad. I was one of the originals on Alps, but as you can see from my character's lvl, I never made it too far. I had my own guild and uni at one point, but after the first 3 months, I only played a few times a month. I guess I wasn't much of an influence on keeping my pals legit considering they'd only see me every other week.

TY all for sharing you views on what you see as legit vs non-legit. But pls remember that this is ALL opinionated. What may seem as an obviously non-legit thing to do might still be considered as playing legit to someone else, so pls try and keep the flames down. I'll still contribute if I see something new, but after what, 5 pages of going back and forth, I think i'll just settle with the whole you say tomato, I say tomato.... (hmm, this doesn't work as well on a forum)... Anyways you get the point.

In my view, if you have never used a bot, and you have tried to get your friends to quit at some point, than you are a legit. Some of us are just more passionate I guess.

[AkillerNXC]

So this one time...I was taking a dump, and uh...

[Insanity]

So this one time...I was taking a dump, and uh...

and u hit 1k posts! WOOOOT!

[.curve]

I want to throw in that I supported my FRIENDS. Be they a botter or not.

Friends > How they choose to play the game.

[NuclearSilo]

I want to throw in that I supported my FRIENDS. Be they a botter or not.

Friends > How they choose to play the game.

Their choice is wrong. End of story.

[.curve]

I want to throw in that I supported my FRIENDS. Be they a botter or not.

Friends > How they choose to play the game.

Their choice is wrong. End of story.

Maybe so. But they're still my friends.

[Amarisa]

being a bot shows how lazy you are being legit level 100 shows you can do something amazing ego booster when most people bot to 100. *you have been promoted to level 100* perfect time for getting a job because your more likely to be happy. your ego will be at a good level to prove your made of something. got to love how the human brain works.....

[Barotix]

I want to throw in that I supported my FRIENDS. Be they a botter or not.

Friends > How they choose to play the game.

Hiding behind that word. It annoys me.

Is it impossible to support one's friends without supporting their actions? I believe one must know where to draw the line. It is possible to be friends with someone yet not support actions that are immoral, self-destructive, or wrong. Yes, one can associate with their friends, but one should not feel obligated to accept behavior like cheating because a friend did it. Never lay a blind eye to mischievous activities. Never pretend it isn't a big deal because they are your friends; in fact, because they are your friends you should encourage them to do the right thing, for their sake. You should be their lighthouse that guides them in the darkest of nights. That is what a true friend does. At least, I believe that is what a true friend does. Friendship isn't as easy as just accepting behavior. Friendship also means making tough decisions. Decisions that may not bear fruit immediately.

[PR0METHEUS]

i agree with goseki... im not going to nvr talk to a friend again because they bot. i dont support them but im not going to lose friends over a computer game.

I can agree to this, at least to an extent. I don't go out of my way to become friends with a botter, but if I am already friends with one before I know they bot, do I really want to end the friendship? I guess it depends. A real-life friend, certainly not.

I did meet someone in Venice a couple years ago, just online, never in real life. She seemed nice. We added each other on Myspace, she called herself "auntie" for my children, always asking about them and the family, etc. We seemed to develop a pretty good online friendship over the several months we played together. To my knowledge, she was never a botter in Venice. At one point, our guild and entire union basically split up. She was offline at the time, but after coming back and trying to 'fix' things, she decided to disban everything, and switched to a different server. She deleted her Myspace account, and never attempted to contact me again - unless I happened to log into her new server to say hi - then it was "oh so nice to hear from you!"

So was she really a friend?

Edit: Last time I logged in her server, she told me she was about level 80. That happened quickly! She said she got there "with the b**". I guess she didn't want to hand grind a new character on a new server... I'm sure if I logged onto her server to say hi, we'd have some good conversation like old times. She just never even seems to bother to contact me. Oh well, life goes on.

If they ban the botters, their gonna ban their source of income, and that would be like cutting off the hand that feeds them. All JM has to do to make botters hand grind is make it easier to lvl. To where you can get like a lvl a day instead of like 1% an hour...

ECSRO has a bit higher exp rate than iSRO, but there are still botters, so an easier leveling experience isn't going to make them quit. If Joymax gives you a level a day, people would cap in half a year and quit when they get bored with the end game.

[.curve]

I want to throw in that I supported my FRIENDS. Be they a botter or not.

Friends > How they choose to play the game.

Hiding behind that word. It annoys me.

Is it impossible to support one's friends without supporting their actions? I believe one must know where to draw the line. It is possible to be friends with someone yet not support actions that are immoral, self-destructive, or wrong. Yes, one can associate with their friends, but one should not feel obligated to accept behavior like cheating because a friend did it. Never lay a blind eye to mischievous activities. Never pretend it isn't a big deal because they are your friends; in fact, because they are your friends you should encourage them to do the right thing, for their sake. You should be their lighthouse that guides them in the darkest of nights. That is what a true friend does. At least, I believe that is what a true friend does. Friendship isn't as easy as just accepting behavior. Friendship also means making tough decisions. Decisions that may not bear fruit immediately.

Then we have two different views on friendship.

I believe that a friend will accept you for who you are or what you do, and not try to change you. It also wasn't a big deal to me because it never really effected me. I was more casual when I played.

[NuclearSilo]

I believe that a friend will accept you for who you are or what you do, and not try to change you. It also wasn't a big deal to me because it never really effected me. I was more casual when I played.

So you support them no matter what they do?

[Goseki]

I want to throw in that I supported my FRIENDS. Be they a botter or not.

Friends > How they choose to play the game.

Hiding behind that word. It annoys me.

Is it impossible to support one's friends without supporting their actions? I believe one must know where to draw the line. It is possible to be friends with someone yet not support actions that are immoral, self-destructive, or wrong. Yes, one can associate with their friends, but one should not feel obligated to accept behavior like cheating because a friend did it. Never lay a blind eye to mischievous activities. Never pretend it isn't a big deal because they are your friends; in fact, because they are your friends you should encourage them to do the right thing, for their sake. You should be their lighthouse that guides them in the darkest of nights. That is what a true friend does. At least, I believe that is what a true friend does. Friendship isn't as easy as just accepting behavior. Friendship also means making tough decisions. Decisions that may not bear fruit immediately.

Hmm I would totally agree with you if this was 4 years ago at the start of the game. I would try to convince my friends to not bot since it's cheating and unfair. However, at this point in the game, I just find it much more challenging to still keep up that "don't cheat guys, it's wrong" moral. The thing is, for me, cheating in a game does not equal to cheating in real life. Some games have cheats built in, while others have external cheating methods. We see this is almost every single game ever made. Even in the old super nintendo days, we had the game genie. It was looked down upon by your fellow gamers to use such a device, but many used it to jump to later parts in the game simply to see how it ended. You do make it sound very nice Barotix, but I'm not sure cheating in a game requires an entire lighthouse. Sure good friends don't let friends drive drunk, but this is a game, I wouldn't want my friend to gameshark or game genie his way through a good game because he will lose the story and the point of playing it, but I'm still gonna be his friend. I'll try convincing him, but if I can't it's still a game. Now if he was smoking crack and shooting himself up with meth, that's another story.

I don't agree that botting is good, nor do I think that ppl should bot, but after all this time with little to no help from JM, I just don't really care anymore. I use to tell my friends to not bot, play legit like me, but that was when botters took up 3/20 of my friends list. Now they're 19/20, and the one legit left besides me is behind bars for 2 years soooo yeah..... I still tell them i'm staying legit simply cuz i'm used to it. They know I don't support botting, but I just don't see it as an immoral and bad behavior anymore. I mean, weren't immoral, illegal, unacceptable deeds simply actions that the majority felt could hurt others and thus agreed that these things would be looked down upon? When SRO was still young, it was def a bad thing to bot. The majority of players were legits and so botters became outcasts. However, it seems more like the situation has flipped. Sure you can still say you're in the right because it was how the game was meant to be played, but at this point, with botting so rampant and admins not enforcing any rules, I think being legit is more of a personal standard.

[.curve]

I believe that a friend will accept you for who you are or what you do, and not try to change you. It also wasn't a big deal to me because it never really effected me. I was more casual when I played.

So you support them no matter what they do?

I support my friend and don't care what they do.

[katip:pPp]

I want to throw in that I supported my FRIENDS. Be they a botter or not.

Friends > How they choose to play the game.

Hiding behind that word. It annoys me.

Is it impossible to support one's friends without supporting their actions? I believe one must know where to draw the line. It is possible to be friends with someone yet not support actions that are immoral, self-destructive, or wrong. Yes, one can associate with their friends, but one should not feel obligated to accept behavior like cheating because a friend did it. Never lay a blind eye to mischievous activities. Never pretend it isn't a big deal because they are your friends; in fact, because they are your friends you should encourage them to do the right thing, for their sake. You should be their lighthouse that guides them in the darkest of nights. That is what a true friend does. At least, I believe that is what a true friend does. Friendship isn't as easy as just accepting behavior. Friendship also means making tough decisions. Decisions that may not bear fruit immediately.

Hmm I would totally agree with you if this was 4 years ago at the start of the game. I would try to convince my friends to not bot since it's cheating and unfair. However, at this point in the game, I just find it much more challenging to still keep up that "don't cheat guys, it's wrong" moral. The thing is, for me, cheating in a game does not equal to cheating in real life. Some games have cheats built in, while others have external cheating methods. We see this is almost every single game ever made. Even in the old super nintendo days, we had the game genie. It was looked down upon by your fellow gamers to use such a device, but many used it to jump to later parts in the game simply to see how it ended. You do make it sound very nice Barotix, but I'm not sure cheating in a game requires an entire lighthouse. Sure good friends don't let friends drive drunk, but this is a game, I wouldn't want my friend to gameshark or game genie his way through a good game because he will lose the story and the point of playing it, but I'm still gonna be his friend. I'll try convincing him, but if I can't it's still a game. Now if he was smoking crack and shooting himself up with meth, that's another story.

I don't agree that botting is good, nor do I think that ppl should bot, but after all this time with little to no help from JM, I just don't really care anymore. I use to tell my friends to not bot, play legit like me, but that was when botters took up 3/20 of my friends list. Now they're 19/20, and the one legit left besides me is behind bars for 2 years soooo yeah..... I still tell them i'm staying legit simply cuz i'm used to it. They know I don't support botting, but I just don't see it as an immoral and bad behavior anymore. I mean, weren't immoral, illegal, unacceptable deeds simply actions that the majority felt could hurt others and thus agreed that these things would be looked down upon? When SRO was still young, it was def a bad thing to bot. The majority of players were legits and so botters became outcasts. However, it seems more like the situation has flipped. Sure you can still say you're in the right because it was how the game was meant to be played, but at this point, with botting so rampant and admins not enforcing any rules, I think being legit is more of a personal standard.

definitely agree with this.
100% of the players i know (and those aren't 2 or 3) do bot. i simply dont get the point of keeping this "war" up.

[NuclearSilo]

I believe that a friend will accept you for who you are or what you do, and not try to change you. It also wasn't a big deal to me because it never really effected me. I was more casual when I played.

So you support them no matter what they do?

I support botters and don't care what they do.

Oh, fixed. Don't hide behind the words. A simple logic a kid can understand.
friend=botter, support friend=support botter

[Goseki]

I support botters and don't care what they do.

Oh, fixed. Don't hide behind the words. A simple logic a kid can understand.
friend=botter, support friend=support botter

I support my friend and don't care what they do.

Don't fix stuff if you're gonna completely change it's meaning.

To me, It seems more like .curve is saying that he "DON'T CARE WHAT THEY DO;" not I SUPPORT BOTS. Not caring and showing your support are 2 different things. If you don't mind, pls stop trying to turn everyone else into a but loving freak just so you can get off tonight at having exposed a fake botter. Lucky i'm not admin at this forum, that is as close as you can get to making false accusations with no proof, and last I checked, falsely accusing someone of botting = temp ban or something.

[NuclearSilo]

I believe you forgot to comment on "I support my friends"

[Goseki]

That could mean so many things. Why hone in on botting? I can support my friends on physical, emotional levels. I can support them in game concepts or pvp. He also said he doesn't care what they do. Combining those 2 statements, I get:

"I don't care for what my friends may do, but I will always help and support my friend no matter what he/she chooses."

Bot supporters themselves are actively promoting botting while they themselves aren't botting. From what i've seen on the forums, i hardly think .curve is promoting botting.

Or maybe .curve can just come back and confirm which is what he/she meant.

[NuclearSilo]

"I support my friend" "no matter what they do" cover "I support their actions" ie "I support their botting action". In a short word, anything belong to his friend will be supported.
That's it, don't play with words if you don't really know what you want.

[Goseki]

I'd rather just take it as a vague mssg rather than hone in on one possible thing and assume it's what he meant. It's his statement so i'll just wait until he clarifies it. I rather not be the first to jump to conclusion based on 1 statement, but that's just me.

I think you can usually interpret meaning from context and from someone's personality. From the way .curve posts, I don't think he's trying to imply that he supports bots. More that he sticks with his friends even though they may bot.

I won't comment further on this, just let the person speak for themselves.

[NuclearSilo]

There is nothing more to comment. "I support my friend, i don't care what they do"
Not just about sro and botting.
"I support my friend even if he steal a bank"
"I support my friend even if he kill someone"
...

Oh, and don't say that coz it only happens in comics, stories, when 2 ppl sacrifice for each other like lovers even if they got to die or go to prison together.

[Goseki]

I believe that a friend will accept you for who you are or what you do, and not try to change you. It also wasn't a big deal to me because it never really effected me. I was more casual when I played.

Hmm, going back it seems like he was still speaking in a strictly gaming sense about that. So in a game, he'll accept his friends for however they might want to play. The way you're using support it seems like he's almost paying for his friend's bot and making 0x33 posters to hand out to gargamel or something. He could just be saying that he supports his friends even if they're botting by still hanging out with them and not alienating them completely. Not really convinced supporting botting friends = supporting bots in general. Seems like a jump in logic there. I support my friends too. If they need help, i'll log on my bard and help with the buffs. I'm still supporting them, but I highly doubt I'm supporting botters. Like I said, you're making a leap there when you assume that if I support my friends who bot, that's the same as supporting botters.

[blackfalcon]

Is it impossible to support one's friends without supporting their actions? I believe one must know where to draw the line. It is possible to be friends with someone yet not support actions that are immoral, self-destructive, or wrong. Yes, one can associate with their friends, but one should not feel obligated to accept behavior like cheating because a friend did it. Never lay a blind eye to mischievous activities. Never pretend it isn't a big deal because they are your friends; in fact, because they are your friends you should encourage them to do the right thing, for their sake. You should be their lighthouse that guides them in the darkest of nights. That is what a true friend does. At least, I believe that is what a true friend does. Friendship isn't as easy as just accepting behavior. Friendship also means making tough decisions. Decisions that may not bear fruit immediately.

i agree that you should help friends out and not let them do bad things... but at the end of the day, this is a Farking video game. they're not smoking crack, robbing houses and beating up old ladies, or doing anything that will affect them beyond having a character banned from a game.

[Barotix]

Is it impossible to support one's friends without supporting their actions? I believe one must know where to draw the line. It is possible to be friends with someone yet not support actions that are immoral, self-destructive, or wrong. Yes, one can associate with their friends, but one should not feel obligated to accept behavior like cheating because a friend did it. Never lay a blind eye to mischievous activities. Never pretend it isn't a big deal because they are your friends; in fact, because they are your friends you should encourage them to do the right thing, for their sake. You should be their lighthouse that guides them in the darkest of nights. That is what a true friend does. At least, I believe that is what a true friend does. Friendship isn't as easy as just accepting behavior. Friendship also means making tough decisions. Decisions that may not bear fruit immediately.

i agree that you should help friends out and not let them do bad things... but at the end of the day, this is a Farking video game. they're not smoking crack, robbing houses and beating up old ladies, or doing anything that will affect them beyond having a character banned from a game.

Yes, it is a video game, but the experience is ruined when one bots. Why even play if you plan on skipping 90% of the game? Jobbing is dead, cape pvp is full of idiots, guild wars aren't as amazing as they once were, and FW is nothing more than an attempt to salvage what is left of a good game. I have had plenty of friends that botted; "e" and "irl." I refused to be in the same guild as them while they botted, I refused to associate with them in the game if they chose to ruin it, but outside the game was a different story. Outside the game they were my friends. Inside the game there were my enemies. Imaging the botting camp and legit camp as two separate guilds. Two guilds that are constantly struggling to bring the downfall of the other; in a state of perpetual warfare. Comparing botting in SRO to games that have a built in cheating mechanic (i.e. "cheating is part of the game because of how the game designers programmed it.") is not a solid foundation for an argument.

Lets stick to games in our arguments.
If a friend steals my pieces in chess I will not play chess with him/her.
If a friend cheats at GTA IV I will still play GTA IV with him/her because cheating in that game is part of the original coding.
If a friend uses Aim-Hack in a competitive FPS I won't play with him/her.
If a friend bots in an mmo I won't play in the same guild, union, or server as him/her.
If a friend takes steroids before every baseball game I won't play with him/her.

Everyone wants a pleasant gaming experience, and excusing cheating in the game because it's a game is a slippery slope. Are the players not real? Are the players fake because you can't see them? Do you think they play to get cheated? Why do people play MMOs? Surely not to cheat or be cheated (out of a great experience).

It doesn't matter what game it is. I won't play that game with you unless you stop cheating. It takes two to tango, .curve. Friendship is not a one way street. Compromise is an important part of friendship.

[NuclearSilo]

I believe that a friend will accept you for who you are or what you do, and not try to change you. It also wasn't a big deal to me because it never really effected me. I was more casual when I played.

Hmm, going back it seems like he was still speaking in a strictly gaming sense about that. So in a game, he'll accept his friends for however they might want to play. The way you're using support it seems like he's almost paying for his friend's bot and making 0x33 posters to hand out to gargamel or something. He could just be saying that he supports his friends even if they're botting by still hanging out with them and not alienating them completely. Not really convinced supporting botting friends = supporting bots in general. Seems like a jump in logic there. I support my friends too. If they need help, i'll log on my bard and help with the buffs. I'm still supporting them, but I highly doubt I'm supporting botters. Like I said, you're making a leap there when you assume that if I support my friends who bot, that's the same as supporting botters.

Oh wait, what do you generally do when you support someone?
Bot: "hey mate, i was exposed in SRF, can you support me by saying that i wasn't wrong and the legits are dumbass" ?
Bot: "hey mate, since you support me, can you go to the bot site and buy me a bot/or buy credits" ?
Bot: "hey mate, since you support me, can you help me to bot my char" ?

So, i think you'll do everything to help him right? If you don't help him, it means that you don't support him, and then you just contradict yourself.

Like I said, you're making a leap there when you assume that if I support my friends who bot, that's the same as supporting botters.

a botter = someone who use bot
your friend who bot = your friend is a botter
support friend = support botter

Yes, that's the logic. You can't say that you support someone who is a botter, but you don't support botter. It's like saying i like dog (which is an animal) but i don't like animals; I like eating ice scream, but i don't like eating cold food.

[Goseki]

Barotix makes a good point. It isn't as fun when your friend is cheating.

The thing for me is just how rampant it is. Like your baseball example. I wouldn't want to play against a team of roided up ppl, but if the MLB decided that they would no longer screen players for steroids no matter how obvious it may be. You're only left with 2 options. Play in a minor league with new friends, play with roided up friends and watch you get ur ass wooped. Or quit baseball.

@ silo... you're still on that?
Like I said, it's based on context. You shouldn't just take a snippet of someone's conversation and assume it sums up everything about them. He says he supports his friends, no matter what they do. Like I've said, that could mean a lot of things. I still consider myself supporting my friends even though they bot. That generally involves me buffing them or loaning them gold or elixirs. If I was the one paying for their bots, than I wouldn't be their friend, I'd be their sugardaddy. If they were exposed on SRF and wanted me to bitch about it (like they'd hang out here in the first place >_>), I wouldn't be their friend if I agreed, i'd be their bitch. If they ask me to bot their character for them, they should already know I'm legit and my comp is dying with 1 SRO running as is.