Every euro is going warlock

[Amelie]

I kill every single warlock in my server, actually they're the easiest one to kill, since i resist all their debuffs.


I agree also with Vindicator, 1 handed warrior/warlock is a really strong and fun build to pvp with.

[NuclearSilo]

- In war, there isnt only 1 cleric. And how do u expect to stun/KB someone that u cannot target? (I'll explain in below). Are we talking about the build, or the noobiness of player, who doesnt know what a pill is? If all carry pill, situation will change.

- Do u always do job war, guild war close to safe zone or not? If yes, I'll have to tell u that cleric doesnt need to go outside to cast a buff, either a bard just have to sit there relax. Do u know that u dont need to wear a hunter/thief flag in order to give buff to a hunter/thief? So if u are in job, how are u supposed to stun/KB a non job player?

- Reflect? The problem is who u gonna to give that buff, and who the enemy will attack. If u give reflect to player A, but enemies attack player B...

[Amelie]

i love when you go like that

[Da_Realest]

lol I remember when people said Warlocks suck and they were the least played Euro class.

Lols yeah, I remember when people took the poll of "Which euro class do you plan to make?" Warlock was last place with 2 votes or something, one including me

The other vote was me. lol

I kill every single warlock in my server, actually they're the easiest one to kill, since i resist all their debuffs.

lol Funny cause as a Warlock I find Clerics to be the easiest to kill.

@NukerSilo, pill has a long cooldown. Warlock debuffs have like a 3 sec cooldown...

[Snoopy]

My Lv64 Warlock/Cleric, is awesome. I can reasonably easily kill Lv80's with it!

70x are no problems.

Video = http://youtube.com/watch?v=NEZ36Ls_IwU

=]. They're not worthless, they can kill easily!

Yea, lets see a video of any lvl 64 anything killing a lvl 80.


Bull ;d.

Unless the 80 is a complete noob >_>.

They are adding abunch of new alchemy stuff to eventually arent they, so less chance to get a bunch of that warlock status stuff.


Warlock is definitely good, its not like some super great class.

You're telling me everyone in that video is crap, has crap gear etc?

The highest damage ever recorded was by a warlock/cleric. My build does the same damage on a mangyang as a Lv75 cleric, with no warlock and a Lv72+5 mag 100% cleric rod.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and mine is that warlock/cleric is good. Not EVERY euro can kill Level 80's. I'm currently making another video now.

[NuclearSilo]

@NukerSilo, pill has a long cooldown. Warlock debuffs have like a 3 sec cooldown...

U are assuming that there is no cleric again, and as if all cleric is targetable and staying outside safe zone <.>

[strangelove]

- In war, there isnt only 1 cleric. And how do u expect to stun/KB someone that u cannot target? (I'll explain in below). Are we talking about the build, or the noobiness of player, who doesnt know what a pill is? If all carry pill, situation will change.

- Do u always do job war, guild war close to safe zone or not? If yes, I'll have to tell u that cleric doesnt need to go outside to cast a buff, either a bard just have to sit there relax. Do u know that u dont need to wear a hunter/thief flag in order to give buff to a hunter/thief? So if u are in job, how are u supposed to stun/KB a non job player?

- Reflect? The problem is who u gonna to give that buff, and who the enemy will attack. If u give reflect to player A, but enemies attack player B...

- This is why you fight AWAY from safe zone, lol. Problem solved! =) It's not really noobiness that someone won't carry pills. They're just hella expensive. XD It's understandable.

- I never war or fight close to safe zone for this reason. So, basically I'll have a hunter being followed by unsuited Clerics. Once out of safe zone, I start handing out PKs like candy. =)

- Advanced Reflect is a party buff, meaning anyone in my party will have Advanced Reflect once I activate the skill. =) Doesn't matter who in my party gets attacked if they all have reflect.

[Advancechao]

Advanced Reflect is a party buff. It lasts 45 seconds and affects all 8 members of the party.

EDIT: Fug_dup beat me to it

[Astra]

Nuclear, I think that You are going to be the last person who will admit that warlocks are overpowered, when you start to read about them and try them.
They are the most difficult build to play cause of their instant casting and order of skills (lots of skills), you need to press the keys fast.

But when you gonna feel the power with a warlock, esp. warlock/cleric warrior/warlock or the newest one rogue/warlock, you gonna change your opinion. Lots of people changed theirs.

Like Fug_Dup said, most people underestimated their power, because this class is difficult for the normal people, thus they get their hands on the wizard or rogue immediately. (invisibility/ambush/backstab)

ATM I'm farming lv69 with mastery 64 (maxed skills).
So far, as for the pvp part I owned 70+ pure str bow, 75 warrior/cleric, wizards fall like leaves with the stun canceling their initial attack (lv80's), int spear nukers, etc etc. The only build for a pure int warlock/cleric to kill is pure str glavie IMO.

As for the FW part, hammers have no chance @ the gates cause of the aoe dots etc. Sooner or later they are dead.

And about the pills against dull and bleed.
Are you sure you gonna have the time to use them @ FW? It's a slaughter house there and you gonna care about those pills.
It's pretty much the same for jobwar or pvp.... everyone has the opportunity to hit you and you are still talking about those expensive pills?
Warlocks are gonna waste all your abnormal pills, I don't wanna talk about special ones.

- Reflect? The problem is who u gonna to give that buff, and who the enemy will attack. If u give reflect to player A, but enemies attack player B...

The noob reflect stays only for the warlock, the advance reflect is for the whole party. (35% probability for immortality)

[Da_Realest]

@NukerSilo, pill has a long cooldown. Warlock debuffs have like a 3 sec cooldown...

U are assuming that there is no cleric again, and as if all cleric is targetable and staying outside safe zone <.>

Then why would you need pills if you have a Cleric...

[Vindicator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzZ7pAT8Ung

This doesnt show warlock is good but the sun 80 is noob. Curse doesnt work with a fire/ice wall.

Tell me how many lvl 80 in your server know how to use a PILL and a WALL?

0?

Pill has a 20 sec delay, curses have 1...gg you wasted 6 pills your fully cursed again. Sprint assault from warrior removes firewall, not to mention you can use warlock magic attack skills. If they are spamming fire wall, they will lose because all you need to do is break it, stun curse, stun, sleep they die.

I kill every single warlock in my server, actually they're the easiest one to kill, since i resist all their debuffs.


I agree also with Vindicator, 1 handed warrior/warlock is a really strong and fun build to pvp with.

Pure warlocks are a bit easier to take down i agree, but as a sub, warlock is truly sexy.

- In war, there isnt only 1 cleric. And how do u expect to stun/KB someone that u cannot target? (I'll explain in below). Are we talking about the build, or the noobiness of player, who doesnt know what a pill is? If all carry pill, situation will change.

Pills take 20 seconds to cool down, and even if you spam it to glitch multiple pills being used, curses cool down in 1 sec. Not only that, but I can make use of group curses and everyone drops.

- Do u always do job war, guild war close to safe zone or not? If yes, I'll have to tell u that cleric doesnt need to go outside to cast a buff, either a bard just have to sit there relax. Do u know that u dont need to wear a hunter/thief flag in order to give buff to a hunter/thief? So if u are in job, how are u supposed to stun/KB a non job player?

This is super easy. If they are out of town, it is very easy to just put them to sleep, prob solved, they cant help. Even if you dont put them to sleep, and they are in town, they are useless. They can not be in the party, so the bard buffs dont work (except mana or some stupid shit), and a cleric cannot give group holy word, spam heals, or do much of anything except give def and int/str. One person gets holy word, woopie. Panic, stun, dead.

- Reflect? The problem is who u gonna to give that buff, and who the enemy will attack. If u give reflect to player A, but enemies attack player B...

It goes to everyone....No matter who they attack, they hurt themselves back.

As for scream mask, you can buff 2 people with it, and it cools down in a sec, so again, if you buff A and B with scream, but they attack C and D, switch up the buffs. They will have to keep swaping targets they cant kill anyone.

[DarkJackal]

My Lv64 Warlock/Cleric, is awesome. I can reasonably easily kill Lv80's with it!

70x are no problems.

Video = http://youtube.com/watch?v=NEZ36Ls_IwU

=]. They're not worthless, they can kill easily!

Yea, lets see a video of any lvl 64 anything killing a lvl 80.


Bull ;d.

Unless the 80 is a complete noob >_>.

They are adding abunch of new alchemy stuff to eventually arent they, so less chance to get a bunch of that warlock status stuff.


Warlock is definitely good, its not like some super great class.

You're telling me everyone in that video is crap, has crap gear etc?

The highest damage ever recorded was by a warlock/cleric. My build does the same damage on a mangyang as a Lv75 cleric, with no warlock and a Lv72+5 mag 100% cleric rod.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and mine is that warlock/cleric is good. Not EVERY euro can kill Level 80's. I'm currently making another video now.

With debuffs the cleric nuke did 4-5k on that lvl 74 nuker in garm right? Ok, lvl 74 isn't 80, theres a big difference between them. Even 10k to the other nuker, that would be less for a lvl 80, wouldn't kill a lvl 80, then you'd get 1 shot >.>.

[Toshiharu]

In war, it's useless. Cleric has 100% status prevention.

Will a everyone have holy word/spell on? I think not. And besides you can get bleed through it and panic.(I think.. unless the spell wore off on that dude and my memory is bad)

[Barotix]

In war, it's useless. Cleric has 100% status prevention.

Will a everyone have holy word/spell on? I think not. And besides you can get bleed through it and panic.(I think.. unless the spell wore off on that dude and my memory is bad)

Everyone won't have it, but if you have a cleric in your party Holy spell is guaranteed. http://www.konpaku.com.br/skill.asp?hab ... &skill=664

[ArchYourFace]

i took warlock wit shield smash cause warlock pwns. ivebeen wanting to play it and venus is where to do it.

[Berto]

i took warlock wit shield smash cause warlock pwns. ivebeen wanting to play it and venus is where to do it.

Same here
80 Warlock, 70 cleric, 10 warrior.

With offering I will KO no matter what anyways when debuffs are laid, pure offering is just a useless overkill. The shield trash is a great bonus when interrupting the enemy, an attack prevented saves me a lot more often then a slightly stronger heal.

[NuclearSilo]

Pill has a 20 sec delay, curses have 1...gg you wasted 6 pills your fully cursed again. Sprint assault from warrior removes firewall, not to mention you can use warlock magic attack skills. If they are spamming fire wall, they will lose because all you need to do is break it, stun curse, stun, sleep they die.

Ok. So, I'll hope u'll be able to beat a bowman inside a icewall (if the other guy is INT build) or firewall (if the other guy is STR build) with Holy Spell (hope JM fix this shit) and KB skill at cap 100.
Then tell me how many hit u need to break a icewall if u have only 56% phy balance and is a INT build and respectively 38% int balance with STR build!?

This is super easy. If they are out of town, it is very easy to just put them to sleep, prob solved, they cant help. Even if you dont put them to sleep, and they are in town, they are useless. They can not be in the party, so the bard buffs dont work (except mana or some stupid shit), and a cleric cannot give group holy word, spam heals, or do much of anything except give def and int/str. One person gets holy word, woopie. Panic, stun, dead.

U waste your time just to debuff ONE person. So I use ONE cleric (who doesnt wear flag) just to cure and heal ONE person. Doesnt worth it?
But u are assumming u can use all the curses with a Holy Spell which is cast before (doesnt matter, some spams in JM bug report, they'll fix it)
Bard buff is 70m or smt, cant remember, enough far to be not visible in map.

It goes to everyone....No matter who they attack, they hurt themselves back.

As for scream mask, you can buff 2 people with it, and it cools down in a sec, so again, if you buff A and B with scream, but they attack C and D, switch up the buffs. They will have to keep swaping targets they cant kill anyone

Maybe this work in some case. But note that reflect only 7m. Useless against a rogue with 30m range or wizard 18m range.


OK. Now stop the theory fight. Here is a situation:

U are a warrior full STR, sub warlock. Im a bow, Holy Spell from a cleric. Im staying inside a firewall. My farest range is 25m. When even u approach, the first skill I'll use is KB. Then I'll spam Strongbow and Crit skill. What will u do?

[NuclearSilo]

In war, it's useless. Cleric has 100% status prevention.

Will a everyone have holy word/spell on? I think not. And besides you can get bleed through it and panic.(I think.. unless the spell wore off on that dude and my memory is bad)

Is a party without cleric a good party?

[strangelove]

OK. Now stop the theory fight. Here is a situation:

U are a warrior full STR, sub warlock. Im a bow, Holy Spell from a cleric. Im staying inside a firewall. My farest range is 25m. When even u approach, the first skill I'll use is KB. Then I'll spam Strongbow and Crit skill. What will u do?

Warlock nukes of course!

Mine are fully farmed for this reason. Since Fire Wall doesn't have defense a STR warrior with an 8th degree warlock rod can just nuke the fire wall away. Fire wall down, proceed to Sprint Assault, stun, panic status, and kill. Switching to my 1h means your chances of criting me just dropped by a lot.

Been there, done that.

[Berto]

Pill has a 20 sec delay, curses have 1...gg you wasted 6 pills your fully cursed again. Sprint assault from warrior removes firewall, not to mention you can use warlock magic attack skills. If they are spamming fire wall, they will lose because all you need to do is break it, stun curse, stun, sleep they die.

Ok. So, I'll hope u'll be able to beat a bowman inside a icewall (if the other guy is INT build) or firewall (if the other guy is STR build) with Holy Spell (hope JM fix this shit) and KB skill at cap 100.
Then tell me how many hit u need to break a icewall if u have only 56% phy balance and is a INT build and respectively 38% int balance with STR build!?

This is super easy. If they are out of town, it is very easy to just put them to sleep, prob solved, they cant help. Even if you dont put them to sleep, and they are in town, they are useless. They can not be in the party, so the bard buffs dont work (except mana or some stupid shit), and a cleric cannot give group holy word, spam heals, or do much of anything except give def and int/str. One person gets holy word, woopie. Panic, stun, dead.

U waste your time just to debuff ONE person. So I use ONE cleric (who doesnt wear flag) just to cure and heal ONE person. Doesnt worth it?
But u are assumming u can use all the curses with a Holy Spell which is cast before (doesnt matter, some spams in JM bug report, they'll fix it)
Bard buff is 70m or smt, cant remember, enough far to be not visible in map.

It goes to everyone....No matter who they attack, they hurt themselves back.

As for scream mask, you can buff 2 people with it, and it cools down in a sec, so again, if you buff A and B with scream, but they attack C and D, switch up the buffs. They will have to keep swaping targets they cant kill anyone

Maybe this work in some case. But note that reflect only 7m. Useless against a rogue with 30m range or wizard 18m range.


OK. Now stop the theory fight. Here is a situation:

U are a warrior full STR, sub warlock. Im a bow, Holy Spell from a cleric. Im staying inside a firewall. My farest range is 25m. When even u approach, the first skill I'll use is KB. Then I'll spam Strongbow and Crit skill. What will u do?

Easy, bless + healing cycle will keep me tanking the hits while I take down the firewall and stun/curse/kill. I've fought a bowman under these exact same circumstances and took them down without a problem. Being hybrid benefits me and helps me tank those huge crits while I still do enough damage to kill. Come to Odin sometime and check it out

[Vindicator]

Pill has a 20 sec delay, curses have 1...gg you wasted 6 pills your fully cursed again. Sprint assault from warrior removes firewall, not to mention you can use warlock magic attack skills. If they are spamming fire wall, they will lose because all you need to do is break it, stun curse, stun, sleep they die.

Ok. So, I'll hope u'll be able to beat a bowman inside a icewall (if the other guy is INT build) or firewall (if the other guy is STR build) with Holy Spell (hope JM fix this shit) and KB skill at cap 100.
Then tell me how many hit u need to break a icewall if u have only 56% phy balance and is a INT build and respectively 38% int balance with STR build!?

This is super easy. If they are out of town, it is very easy to just put them to sleep, prob solved, they cant help. Even if you dont put them to sleep, and they are in town, they are useless. They can not be in the party, so the bard buffs dont work (except mana or some stupid shit), and a cleric cannot give group holy word, spam heals, or do much of anything except give def and int/str. One person gets holy word, woopie. Panic, stun, dead.

U waste your time just to debuff ONE person. So I use ONE cleric (who doesnt wear flag) just to cure and heal ONE person. Doesnt worth it?
But u are assumming u can use all the curses with a Holy Spell which is cast before (doesnt matter, some spams in JM bug report, they'll fix it)
Bard buff is 70m or smt, cant remember, enough far to be not visible in map.

It goes to everyone....No matter who they attack, they hurt themselves back.

As for scream mask, you can buff 2 people with it, and it cools down in a sec, so again, if you buff A and B with scream, but they attack C and D, switch up the buffs. They will have to keep swaping targets they cant kill anyone

Maybe this work in some case. But note that reflect only 7m. Useless against a rogue with 30m range or wizard 18m range.


OK. Now stop the theory fight. Here is a situation:

U are a warrior full STR, sub warlock. Im a bow, Holy Spell from a cleric. Im staying inside a firewall. My farest range is 25m. When even u approach, the first skill I'll use is KB. Then I'll spam Strongbow and Crit skill. What will u do?

Since you fail miserably in theory, at least you came up with a scenario.

First of all, this is either a pussy pvp because he needs a cleric, or job war, in which case my focus is not to kill him, but to allow the others to kill him much faster.

Since your in a fire wall, im going to go warrior and put upmy defensive buffs in the rare case you get extremly lucky. From there, i will sprint assault. Since you have the farthest range, you kb me before i can use sprint, no biggy because when your strong bow is charging, i can sprint that entire distance and stun you or kb you, to cancel your strong bow. If i fail to stu or kb (very unlikely in my experience) your attack will do around 500 dmg to me. At this point i shield bash you. The chances of you escaping stun, and kb from sprint, and the kb from shield bash is amazingly low. The second either of these occurs, i have my warlock rod out. If your not stunned, i will stun you since i have 2 stun skills, It wont be hard. Ill also spam kb on you. My kb coupled with 2 stuns is > your kb. From here, im just going to put panic on you, and you cant pot your hp fast enough to live in a job war.

edit: o ya, since i cam spam vampire touch and kiss to leech your life away and keep mine full, I wont be dieing anytime soon with 1332 phy def and 1657 mag def

[Quintus]

I think Xbow rogue is the best. Invisible + Rediculus Range + Insane Damage = Pwnage

[NuclearSilo]

OK. Now stop the theory fight. Here is a situation:

U are a warrior full STR, sub warlock. Im a bow, Holy Spell from a cleric. Im staying inside a firewall. My farest range is 25m. When even u approach, the first skill I'll use is KB. Then I'll spam Strongbow and Crit skill. What will u do?

Warlock nukes of course!

Mine are fully farmed for this reason. Since Fire Wall doesn't have defense a STR warrior with an 8th degree warlock rod can just nuke the fire wall away. Fire wall down, proceed to Sprint Assault, stun, panic status, and kill. Switching to my 1h means your chances of criting me just dropped by a lot.

Been there, done that.

Nice. Now u are lecturing me how strong is a STR NUKER, right?

Easy, bless + healing cycle will keep me tanking the hits while I take down the firewall and stun/curse/kill. I've fought a bowman under these exact same circumstances and took them down without a problem. Being hybrid benefits me and helps me tank those huge crits while I still do enough damage to kill. Come to Odin sometime and check it out

So u cant do anything without the others help, right? Dont tell me u are a STR NUKER who is trying to nuke a firewall too.

[Snoopy]

@NukerSilo, pill has a long cooldown. Warlock debuffs have like a 3 sec cooldown...

U are assuming that there is no cleric again, and as if all cleric is targetable and staying outside safe zone <.>

Then why would you need pills if you have a Cleric...

Pills are good, as a backup. Id you're lower level and haven't got Holy word, or Holy Spell, some Ice/Fire/Poison etc, gets through.

[NuclearSilo]

Since you fail miserably in theory, at least you came up with a scenario.

First of all, this is either a pussy pvp because he needs a cleric, or job war, in which case my focus is not to kill him, but to allow the others to kill him much faster.

Since your in a fire wall, im going to go warrior and put upmy defensive buffs in the rare case you get extremly lucky. From there, i will sprint assault. Since you have the farthest range, you kb me before i can use sprint, no biggy because when your strong bow is charging, i can sprint that entire distance and stun you or kb you, to cancel your strong bow. If i fail to stu or kb (very unlikely in my experience) your attack will do around 500 dmg to me. At this point i shield bash you. The chances of you escaping stun, and kb from sprint, and the kb from shield bash is amazingly low. The second either of these occurs, i have my warlock rod out. If your not stunned, i will stun you since i have 2 stun skills, It wont be hard. Ill also spam kb on you. My kb coupled with 2 stuns is > your kb. From here, im just going to put panic on you, and you cant pot your hp fast enough to live in a job war.

edit: o ya, since i cam spam vampire touch and kiss to leech your life away and keep mine full, I wont be dieing anytime soon with 1332 phy def and 1657 mag def

OK sir. U are teaching me something new again. When did a KB work when a Wall is put on? And u didnt really answer the part how could u break a firewall if u are a STR with a lowest mag balance ever see.

[strangelove]

OK. Now stop the theory fight. Here is a situation:

U are a warrior full STR, sub warlock. Im a bow, Holy Spell from a cleric. Im staying inside a firewall. My farest range is 25m. When even u approach, the first skill I'll use is KB. Then I'll spam Strongbow and Crit skill. What will u do?

Warlock nukes of course!

Mine are fully farmed for this reason. Since Fire Wall doesn't have defense a STR warrior with an 8th degree warlock rod can just nuke the fire wall away. Fire wall down, proceed to Sprint Assault, stun, panic status, and kill. Switching to my 1h means your chances of criting me just dropped by a lot.

Been there, done that.

Nice. Now u are lecturing me how strong is a STR NUKER, right?

I'm not sure you understand lol. I'll type keywords in caps this time, maybe it'll help.

Fire Wall has NO mag defense. It will just absorb the damage instead of being inflicted onto you. Since the Fire Wall is vulnerable to ANY magical attack, leveling a Warlock nuke would be enough to bring the Fire Wall down even if you're STR because it has NO DEFENSE. I'm not saying a STR player will have amazing magical damage- it won't - but against a Fire Wall, stats are irrelevant as long as the attack inflicting damage upon it is magic-based.

[Berto]

OK. Now stop the theory fight. Here is a situation:

U are a warrior full STR, sub warlock. Im a bow, Holy Spell from a cleric. Im staying inside a firewall. My farest range is 25m. When even u approach, the first skill I'll use is KB. Then I'll spam Strongbow and Crit skill. What will u do?

Warlock nukes of course!

Mine are fully farmed for this reason. Since Fire Wall doesn't have defense a STR warrior with an 8th degree warlock rod can just nuke the fire wall away. Fire wall down, proceed to Sprint Assault, stun, panic status, and kill. Switching to my 1h means your chances of criting me just dropped by a lot.

Been there, done that.

Nice. Now u are lecturing me how strong is a STR NUKER, right?

Easy, bless + healing cycle will keep me tanking the hits while I take down the firewall and stun/curse/kill. I've fought a bowman under these exact same circumstances and took them down without a problem. Being hybrid benefits me and helps me tank those huge crits while I still do enough damage to kill. Come to Odin sometime and check it out

So u cant do anything without the others help, right? Dont tell me u are a STR NUKER who is trying to nuke a firewall too.

I'm a warlock cleric, hybrid int. I can take it down in a nuke >_>;

[/Pi]

I intarwebz

[NuclearSilo]

I'm not sure you understand lol. I'll type keywords in caps this time, maybe it'll help.

Fire Wall has NO mag defense. It will just absorb the damage instead of being inflicted onto you. Since the Fire Wall is vulnerable to ANY magical attack, leveling a Warlock nuke would be enough to bring the Fire Wall down even if you're STR because it has NO DEFENSE. I'm not saying a STR player will have amazing magical damage- it won't - but against a Fire Wall, stats are irrelevant as long as the attack inflicting damage upon it is magic-based.

I understand it PERFECTLY. And I'm aware that it has no DEFENSE, but ABSORPTION. Because it's FIRE wall, only MAG attack can destroys it.
U are a STR, so u deal barely 1000 dmg to a wall 10000 HP.

(didnt test the dmg though, but im sure it's damn low)

[Toshiharu]

In war, it's useless. Cleric has 100% status prevention.

Will a everyone have holy word/spell on? I think not. And besides you can get bleed through it and panic.(I think.. unless the spell wore off on that dude and my memory is bad)

Everyone won't have it, but if you have a cleric in your party Holy spell is guaranteed. http://www.konpaku.com.br/skill.asp?hab ... &skill=664

If you die, will you have holy word/spell on?(1min cool down ftw) I seen many clerics(my server) that just don't bother with word and only use spell.(Which seems reasonable since spell uses on his/herself+party)