Thinking about a subclass for my rogue

Pred · Post by **Pred** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:30 pm

TeamLosi wrote:Bard is Only useful in PVE imo b/c you can always buy potions to make you go faster OR if you have a Wiz/Bard in your party.

Who is going to buy 100% Speed pot every time?
How many level 80 Bards do you know?

TeamLosi · Post by **TeamLosi** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:33 pm

I know a few, why waste so much SP for something you can buy.

/Pi · Post by **/Pi** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:57 pm

Has my union leader made up his mind yet?

Pred · Post by **Pred** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:07 am

TeamLosi wrote:I know a few, why waste so much SP for something you can buy.

lol. Must be convenient to have a butt buddy at all times.

It's not wasting SP. You dont get it. the point of Rogue is to use stealth. You cannot use stealth if you are not using Daggers/Xbow. Using any other weapon is just stupid.

Do you even have a rogue? Have you tried to chase someone down with no speed? If you are not cloaked = your dead.

XemnasXD · Post by **XemnasXD** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:00 am

Pred wrote:
TeamLosi wrote:I know a few, why waste so much SP for something you can buy.

lol. Must be convenient to have a butt buddy at all times.

It's not wasting SP. You dont get it. the point of Rogue is to use stealth. You cannot use stealth if you are not using Daggers/Xbow. Using any other weapon is just stupid.

Do you even have a rogue? Have you tried to chase someone down with no speed? If you are not cloaked = your dead.

100% speed pots aren't expensive. Its not worth lvling a whole tree so you can run faster in stealth. that is just dumb. The point of Rogues is to kill as quickly as possible but sometimes thats just not possible. Having faster moving speed won't help you kill any quicker it'll help you run away faster. I'd rather have a sub that lets me stay in the fight than a sub thats only use is helping me run away from one...

Sub-classes are about compensating for weaknesses or giving yourself an advantage. Moving faster does not outweigh the benefits of higher defense and auto-pot...it doesn't even outweigh the benefits of the warlock debuffs...

TeamLosi · Post by **TeamLosi** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:05 am

Pred wrote:
TeamLosi wrote:Do you even have a rogue? Have you tried to chase someone down with no speed? If you are not cloaked = your dead.

Yes i do have a Rogue, and yes it sucks with no speed increase except for the passive but speed scrolls and drug of typhoon make up for it

iGod · Post by **iGod** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:09 am

I'd go with warrior subclass like vortex said.. that build owns everyone.. I'd do it with my new noob but im too lazy to farm so much

OwnedByFudge · Post by **OwnedByFudge** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:10 am

iGod wrote:I'd go with warrior subclass like vortex said.. that build owns everyone.. I'd do it with my new noob but im too lazy to farm so much

If ur gonna pick a sub... be smart.

Pred · Post by **Pred** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:12 am

lol. what are you going to do with warrior sub class? buff other people?

what about cleric? Bless yourself every 2 mins?

Every buff wears off when you switch weapon. There is no point to use a dual build DD/Support.

You can't stealth. Bottom line your dead.

You think farming skills for a cleric is less then farming Two skills for Bard?

How many Rogues out there actually run around there with shields and rods. It's stupid. STEALTH STEALTH STEALTH of you don't deserve to be a rogue at all.

XemnasXD · Post by **XemnasXD** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:12 am

Vortex is a Warrior/Rogue not a Rogue/Warrior

He picked up the rogue tree because it benefits his warrior tree....the same is not true in reverse. If you were a Warrior i'd go with Cleric or Rogue as a sub-class.....if your a Rogue you can already do everything a Warrior can and better PvP wise so theres no point in going backwards....

@Pred . Bless, Recovery Division, Healing cycle, and Heaven Flash are all buffs and effects that stay even after the weapon switch....Stealth won't win the battle against a shield once they block, stealth won't win the battle once you reveal yourself and get nuked by someone nearby....you can't rely on stealth all the time thats why people pick a sub-class

DavidHe · Post by **DavidHe** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:51 am

Pred wrote:lol. what are you going to do with warrior sub class? buff other people?

what about cleric? Bless yourself every 2 mins?

Every buff wears off when you switch weapon. There is no point to use a dual build DD/Support.

You can't stealth. Bottom line your dead.

You think farming skills for a cleric is less then farming Two skills for Bard?

How many Rogues out there actually run around there with shields and rods. It's stupid. STEALTH STEALTH STEALTH of you don't deserve to be a rogue at all.

Someone hasn't seen this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWAmhiqBEjI

Note especially when he/she backs off and uses heaven flash and then blesses him/herself. Most of the time, it is because they're getting hit hard by multiple people. Now if that was a bard, against chinese, they would have caught up and the rogue would have died.

Cleric is one of the better subclasses for rogue if you like to pvp both against only one person and large groups.

Plus with another cleric(s) in the party, you can rotate bless and have it on constantly.

Hitman144 · Post by **Hitman144** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:55 am

rogue/barb = movement will be fast. but defense low

rogue/cleric= movement will be slow but u will get more defense

dont go hybrid

, dont pick warlock

Pred · Post by **Pred** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:55 am

lol, i dont need to see that video. I have seen plenty of rogues on all servers.

Your trying to design an all around class that can do multiple things. European char's dont work like that. No matter how much defense you have, you still cannot pot = death.

XemnasXD · Post by **XemnasXD** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:02 am

Pred wrote:lol, i dont need to see that video. I have seen plenty of rogues on all servers.

Your trying to design an all around class that can do multiple things. European char's dont work like that. No matter how much defense you have, you still cannot pot = death.

Thats why you cast Recovery division and healing cycle....Then if you need time to get back some health just KD or KB with Xbow or use heaven Flash to hold them in place....thats the benefits of a cleric sub...

If you have Bard sub the only thing you'll be able to do is run away. Cleric isn't about turning the Rogue into a tank it'll never do that, its about giving you enough time and enough defense to last long enough to kill more than 1 or 2 people when you decide to reveal yourself...no more hiding in the Gate during PvP or running away like all the other Euros...

borat2 · Post by **borat2** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:03 am

pvp = cleric
pve = bard

you choose.

and for wizard it should be
pvp = bard
pve = cleric

Pred · Post by **Pred** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:06 am

XemnasXD wrote:
Thats why you cast Recovery division and healing cycle....Then if you need time to get back some health just KD or KB with Xbow or use heaven Flash to hold them in place....thats the benefits of a cleric sub...

The only thing you benefit is a longer life span. Still low chance of survival rate because you cant run away. You'll still die. Its just how quickly do you want to die.

Ive killed every rogue that is sub cleric or warrior. It does not make a difference. Your train of thought is to defend vs a Chinese character/Mob when im killing other Europeans.

Try living through a Wizard. Sub Cleric won't make a difference. Stun = death.

XemnasXD · Post by **XemnasXD** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:37 am

Pred wrote:
XemnasXD wrote:
Thats why you cast Recovery division and healing cycle....Then if you need time to get back some health just KD or KB with Xbow or use heaven Flash to hold them in place....thats the benefits of a cleric sub...

The only thing you benefit is a longer life span. Still low chance of survival rate because you cant run away. You'll still die. Its just how quickly do you want to die.

Ive killed every rogue that is sub cleric or warrior. It does not make a difference. Your train of thought is to defend vs a Chinese character/Mob when im killing other Europeans.

Running away is the last option for me. It won't help my mates, it won't get me loot, and it won't help me kill my enemies. Its for cowards, people who are to afraid to fight because they think since they're a Euro and Rogue they die to easily.

Well with a cleric sub i won't die easily. I'll go down fighting or i won't go down at all but the longer you last, the more hits you can get in, the more damage you can do, the more likely you can win. If you run away, you've already lost. Killing a Rogue with Bard sub is an easy thing to do, all they can do is run and if they try to fight back they're dead. No offense to Juey but you can look at his vids and he how much of an advantage running away gave him during PvP....then you can look at Devil_IowU with a Cleric sub and see what you can do with that.....

Juey Rogue/Bard

IowU Rogue/Cleric PvP

The difference is clear and undeniable. When comparing Cleric sub to Bard sub in terms of PvP Cleric is superior in every way!

Pred · Post by **Pred** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:01 am

It's not superior in any way. It still dies.

Pawnage · Post by **Pawnage** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:20 am

warlock is pointless to a rogue imo
If you're pvping/jobbing, this is what you would hav to do:

Stealth > Switch to warlock rod (you're now visible) > Start debuffing > switch to daggers/xbow > use dagger desperate/xbow extreme > attack!!!

By then you'll be already dead or near dead. What's the use of stealth if your whole cover is blown just for debuffs? You can already 1-2 them if they're your level.

Rush4Life · Post by **Rush4Life** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:38 am

I have a crossbow rogue in heavy armour. At lv 39 I added 2H sword and I think it's the best decision I made, instead of picking daggers.

First of all, I had massive phy. defence thanks to the heavy armour.
Second, this is a very flexible build. You can be as strong as a pure int, with low hp, etc. And the next minute you're unkillable.
I can choose between ~2k, ~4k and ~5k+ HP.

Maybe the 2h won't do as much damage as the crossbow, but in party's I can tank, or I can do damage (with my crossbow).

Most of the time I solo, I pick crossbow; xbow xtreme on, and I'm ready to go. But when suddenly I get mobbed by 2 pt mobs or something, I just switch to 2h: vital increase + iron skin: unkillable.

Also: It is not the most common build, so it is unique. You see everybody as a Rogue/Bard, and some as Rogue/Cleric, try something different. I mean: The speedbuff is too overrated, when you have a good spawn, you won't walk so much, and the other bard skills are overrated too.
The cleric skills are cool, but you have a more boring build, you just use a few skills.
As a Rogue/Warrior you can use several weapons, which is just FUN, and that's what this game is actually about (and not botting, powerleveling and bitching 'bout server traffic), it's about FUN.

But it's your char, this was just an advise.

Crumpets · Post by **Crumpets** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:41 am

Pred, may I ask if you have even seen a Warrior/Rouge fight like Vortex has?

If not, please watch his vids. He's one of the only builds that will and can tank.

XemnasXD · Post by **XemnasXD** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:30 am

all warriors can tank...he'd be able to tank better with a cleric sub....i think he mentions that in one of the comments....

Warriors are tanks....thats what they do...tank....all of them....duh.....

V0rt3x · Post by **V0rt3x** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:36 am

XemnasXD wrote:all warriors can tank...he'd be able to tank better with a cleric sub....i think he mentions that in one of the comments....

Warriors are tanks....thats what they do...tank....all of them....duh.....

He is a rogue and picking a sub so he cant go warrior/cleric

XemnasXD · Post by **XemnasXD** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:38 am

V0rt3x wrote:
XemnasXD wrote:all warriors can tank...he'd be able to tank better with a cleric sub....i think he mentions that in one of the comments....

Warriors are tanks....thats what they do...tank....all of them....duh.....

He is a rogue and picking a sub so he cant go warrior/cleric

this i know. Crumpets was pointing out in his comment that your one of the only builds that can tank which is a no brainer since your a Warrior and thats a tanker. Unless i read that wrong because Pred's strategy has never been to stay in the fight but run away...

when i said He i was referring to YOU vortex...

jarrod · Post by **jarrod** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:02 am

yo dea go rouge/cleric....

but no matter wat...i stil pwn your a** lol

Rush4Life · Post by **Rush4Life** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:18 am

Another thing, about rogue/cleric, when you use crossbow extreme, ther goes your HP and defence.
Thus you cannot tank anymore, and cleric is useless when you get 2hit by a mage or something.

tedtwilliger · Post by **tedtwilliger** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:21 am

Even with bless your defense is still bad. You lose 50% hp and defense when using xbow, now this is pretty much canceled out via bless. Now your just a rogue who cant move fast, has a 15 second pot delay and still cant tank.

Remember bard buffs aren't just for running, there for catching up to people as well.

strangelove · Post by **strangelove** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:48 am

XemnasXD wrote:If you have Bard sub the only thing you'll be able to do is run away....

Having fast speed buffs doesn't mean your only option is to run away. How about chasing enemies?

There have been countless times I've seen Euros die for the simple fact that their target was too far away from them and their speed did not allow them to reach the enemy in time. The most common speed buff Euros use is the crappy 50% moving scrolls or speed potion from the town NPC. When you're chasing full farmed Chinese level 80s with 73% speed and phantoming, you're gonna wish you had a bard in your party or a 100% speed potion.

Speed potions are very inconvenient because of their cost, and having to spend 'x' amount of gold every time you want to go jobbing is very unnecessary.

The Cleric subclass has become so common that it's almost guaranteed that a Euro with Cleric skills will be in your jobbing party. A bard, however, is not very common and having one in a job party just makes things better.

Anyway- to the point; The Bard sub-class isn't just for running away. It offers a great variety of advantages as do other skill tress, just in a different manner. You won't have Bless Spell, but you have Tambours. No Heaven Flash, but you have Patter Clamour. No Holy Spell, but then theres Cure Melody. It offers virtually the same advantages in a different way. What people can't visualize, however, is using these advantages successfully in combat so the idea of having a bard sub-class is immediately defenestrated.

Rush4Life · Post by **Rush4Life** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:33 am

Bard for chasing enemy's?
Do you have any idea how freakin' far a rogue can shoot?
Up to 25 meters with it's strongest attack!

strangelove · Post by **strangelove** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:48 am

Rush4Life wrote:Bard for chasing enemy's?
Do you have any idea how freakin' far a rogue can shoot?
Up to 25 meters with it's strongest attack!

If you're thinking about Fast Shot and Rapid Shot, both which have the range increase, they'll barely scratch anyone your level (and those attacks are definitely not the strongest. They're actually very weak. Best used for luring monsters. o.O) All the rest of the attacks use the same 18 meter range the bow provides. With the xbow range passive maxed, it'll give you an additional 3 meters, which would then give you a 21 meter range, not 25.

And unless you knock down the enemy you're chasing with Blast Shot, you won't be able to reach them even with a large range, and would have wasted time by standing there trying to attack them.