Should all 3rd party software be condemned?

[Aprone]

Infstdraynor, I'm still getting a kick out of the whole "OS is a 3rd party program" statement. Could you please point to me to some place where an OS is refered to as a 3rd party program? You seem pretty confident so I will wait to disagree with you. You might know of something I

[chesticles]

I would just like to clarify to everyone reading this post that in terms of 3rd party programs, we are referring to 3rd party in relation to sro not in general

[Infstdraynor]

Infstdraynor, I'm still getting a kick out of the whole "OS is a 3rd party program" statement. Could you please point to me to some place where an OS is refered to as a 3rd party program? You seem pretty confident so I will wait to disagree with you. You might know of something I

Did I not say -if- vent was considered a third party program, which it obviously is not, -then- the OS is considered one as well?
Did I not say

If you consider vent/TS as a third program by parameters you specified, these parameters then would be applicable to the OS, amongst too many other things.

Apparently you do not seem to get the point that I was trying to demonstrate your lack of knowledge on the issue of third party programs by stating an obvious false. This is basic proof by contradiction.

[Devotia]

Yes, there should be an instant ban for all 3rd party software. This includes, but is not limited to, lvling bots, spambots, pk2 editing, SP calculators, character builder applets, and WINE for you linux users.

Zero tolerance is the only way to protect you, citizen.

[shadowman20875]

If it auto does anything no, but if it gets you a further zoom or faster scroll speed and others and JM underscores it I don't see why.

[Aprone]

Did I not say -if- vent was considered a third party program, which it obviously is not, -then- the OS is considered one as well?

FYI, ventrilo and teamspeak are refered to as "third party programs" and "third-party clients" constantly. Most of the time you can find links to these programs huddled under the category "third-party voice programs".

So since these are third party programs, re-read what you have been posting and see why we do not agree with you.

[nightbloom]

Did I not say -if- vent was considered a third party program, which it obviously is not, -then- the OS is considered one as well?

FYI, ventrilo and teamspeak are refered to as "third party programs" and "third-party clients" constantly. Most of the time you can find links to these programs huddled under the category "third-party voice programs".

So since these are third party programs, re-read what you have been posting and see why we do not agree with you.

Because they do not hook into the gaming client, they are not illegal. If Ventrillo utilized or altered the client in order to run, then in would fall into that catagory. A good Litmus test (for those who cannot seem to use common sense for these things) would be, can this program run and have a use when its intended accompanying game client is not running? Well voice programs such as Ventrillo, TeamSpeak and even MSN or Skype certainly can. They are independent programs utilized for more than just gaming. Now, did that make sense to you?

[Infstdraynor]

Did I not say -if- vent was considered a third party program, which it obviously is not, -then- the OS is considered one as well?

FYI, ventrilo and teamspeak are refered to as "third party programs" and "third-party clients" constantly. Most of the time you can find links to these programs huddled under the category "third-party voice programs".

So since these are third party programs, re-read what you have been posting and see why we do not agree with you.

Because they do not hook into the gaming client, they are not illegal. If Ventrillo utilized or altered the client in order to run, then in would fall into that catagory. A good Litmus test (for those who cannot seem to use common sense for these things) would be, can this program run and have a use when its intended accompanying game client is not running? Well voice programs such as Ventrillo, TeamSpeak and even MSN or Skype certainly can. They are independent programs utilized for more than just gaming. Now, did that make sense to you?

Thank you! Finally someone with logic!

[Aprone]

Because they do not hook into the gaming client, they are not illegal. If Ventrillo utilized or altered the client in order to run, then in would fall into that catagory. A good Litmus test (for those who cannot seem to use common sense for these things) would be, can this program run and have a use when its intended accompanying game client is not running? Well voice programs such as Ventrillo, TeamSpeak and even MSN or Skype certainly can. They are independent programs utilized for more than just gaming. Now, did that make sense to you?

Nightbloom, it sounds a little like you've gone backwards and forgotten several posts where I answered you on these exact issues.

You are correct sir. I believe this covers both nightbloom's and your latest posted questions. Explaining how it all works would be getting Way off topic... plus I don't really think that is important. Bottom line: Does not alter the client in any way. Does not alter or bypass the game guard. It does not alter or intercept the packets of information to and from the client.

This program does not "hook into the gaming client". I've already stated that it does not utilize or alter the client in order to run.

A good Litmus test (...) would be, can this program run and have a use when its intended accompanying game client is not running?

Yes, and yes.

They (vent and teamspeak) are independent programs utilized for more than just gaming.

This is also an independent program. It can be used in a wide variety of applications and situations... not just this game or games in general.

Now, did that make sense to you?

Of course it did, that's why I had said the above quote to you several posts ago. If I am misunderstanding you then I apologize... please reword your statements for me. If I am understanding you correctly, then you have not listed any new information that was not already countered earlier in this thread.

[Infstdraynor]

@Aprone

You clearly do not understand how your program works. The only two ways of it functioning, I have stated before, are illegal and render the program as a third party program.

[Aprone]

@Aprone

You clearly do not understand how your program works. The only two ways of it functioning, I have stated before, are illegal and render the program as a third party program.

I understand perfectly how my program works sir. How it works is irrelevant as long as it does not do the following:

Alter the game client
Alter or bypass the Game guard
Intercept or monitor incoming/outgoing info packets
Hook into the client
Alter memory values used by the client

For all anyone cares, I could have done anything to accomplish the "how"!
I could have built a camera-mounted robot to handle the mouse and type away at the keyboard. (I have done similar things in the past believe it or not)
I could have kidnapped neighborhood kids and chained them to the desk... only feeding them when they properly scroll my stall message. (probably not something I'd do)
I could have trained hampsters to do this, using an ingenious system of inputs and elecro-shock devices. (I've actually thought about trying something like that a few times)

The point is, assuming I am not flat-out lying to you all, the program does not do those things which are agreed to be illegal in Silkroad. If I was lying to you, then I would agree with what 99% of you have said... but I am not lying.

[Infstdraynor]

@Aprone

You clearly do not understand how your program works. The only two ways of it functioning, I have stated before, are illegal and render the program as a third party program.

I understand perfectly how my program works sir. How it works is irrelevant as long as it does not do the following:

Alter the game client
Alter or bypass the Game guard
Intercept or monitor incoming/outgoing info packets
Hook into the client
Alter memory values used by the client

For all anyone cares, I could have done anything to accomplish the "how"!
I could have built a camera-mounted robot to handle the mouse and type away at the keyboard. (I have done similar things in the past believe it or not)
I could have kidnapped neighborhood kids and chained them to the desk... only feeding them when they properly scroll my stall message. (probably not something I'd do)
I could have trained hampsters to do this, using an ingenious system of inputs and elecro-shock devices. (I've actually thought about trying something like that a few times)

The point is, assuming I am not flat-out lying to you all, the program does not do those things which are agreed to be illegal in Silkroad. If I was lying to you, then I would agree with what 99% of you have said... but I am not lying.

You've obviously never heard of the hooking of the ServiceDescriptorTable. Which the most likely how most macro programs work. SRO runs on Ring3, your program probably hooks winapis which it will signal to Ring0 kernelmode, which is the system. The system then performs actions specified by your winapi call, such as move the mouse and type with the keyboard. This -is- considered as a third party program because the result of your winapi call is interfacing with sro client, which could be made for malicious intents.

[Aprone]

This -is- considered as a third party program because the result of your winapi call is interfacing with sro client, which could be made for malicious intents.

How many posts did I make where I said this is a third party program? From there I believe we discuissed how many other programs (which technically are also "third party programs) are used and accepted as legal. After that we spent several posts going over what specific activities would be illegal for these third party programs to do. Finally we were debating weither this program would be considered acceptible if it did not use any of those agreed upon illegal methods.

So now we have gone full-circle, and you are trying to list more evidence that this program is a *gasp* third party program? Interesting debate strategy. I'm beginning to become sorry I even brought this all up. I guess people can just decide for themselves. Anyone new want to say anything before I move on to more interesting topics?

[Infstdraynor]

I believe in the post replying Nightbloom you've made it clear that you do not think that your program is a third party program.

nightbloom wrote:
Because they do not hook into the gaming client, they are not illegal. If Ventrillo utilized or altered the client in order to run, then in would fall into that catagory. A good Litmus test (for those who cannot seem to use common sense for these things) would be, can this program run and have a use when its intended accompanying game client is not running? Well voice programs such as Ventrillo, TeamSpeak and even MSN or Skype certainly can. They are independent programs utilized for more than just gaming. Now, did that make sense to you?


Nightbloom, it sounds a little like you've gone backwards and forgotten several posts where I answered you on these exact issues.

Aprone *taken from several posts earlier* wrote:
You are correct sir. I believe this covers both nightbloom's and your latest posted questions. Explaining how it all works would be getting Way off topic... plus I don't really think that is important. Bottom line: Does not alter the client in any way. Does not alter or bypass the game guard. It does not alter or intercept the packets of information to and from the client.


This program does not "hook into the gaming client". I've already stated that it does not utilize or alter the client in order to run.

nightbloom wrote:
A good Litmus test (...) would be, can this program run and have a use when its intended accompanying game client is not running?


Yes, and yes.

nightbloom wrote:
They (vent and teamspeak) are independent programs utilized for more than just gaming.


This is also an independent program. It can be used in a wide variety of applications and situations... not just this game or games in general.

nightbloom wrote:
Now, did that make sense to you?


Of course it did, that's why I had said the above quote to you several posts ago. If I am misunderstanding you then I apologize... please reword your statements for me. If I am understanding you correctly, then you have not listed any new information that was not already countered earlier in this thread.

[nightbloom]

Aprone, you are deliberately being obtuse in order to draw attention to yourself. I can tell that you want some kind of approval for your lil illegal program.

Let me help you out.

http://www.silkroadonline.net/sro_board ... tegory.asp

Post your little program there, where you can get a definitive answer from MD that even you can't argue against.

[disturbed666]

sorry guys..but i think that scroll thing in the stall name is actually pretty nifty

[Krad_Red]

If you must alter the normal operation of the game, then it is illegal.

-cough-pk2-cough-

shit, guess we're all banned. ¬_¬''

[Aprone]

I believe in the post replying Nightbloom you've made it clear that you do not think that you're program is a third party program.

How so?! That entire quote you just listed is me citing similarities between my program and how Nightbloom describes Vent and Teamspeak. I have been saying since the start that Vent and Teamspeak are third party programs.

If I clearly said I do not believe my program is a third party program, please specifically point it out to me.

I am running out of things to say to you sir... you seem to mysteriously forget posts that have been made earlier, claim that I am saying things exactly opposite to what I've said, and jump back to re-"prove" things that we have already agreed upon and moved past.


P.S.

Nightbloom, I brought this up because when I joined this community I initially jumped into two bot-themed posts. I have read how strictly the forum admins enforce bans, and I wanted to figure out exactly what of my own personal examples I could bring into those discussions.

I was given my answer by testic... er, the ballz guy (sorry I forgot the exact name) a long time back, but certain people continued to post questions/comments into this thread and I have responded to them. I am not trying to suck all of the attention to me, in fact, I was actually trying to end this thread a few posts ago after I saw it turning full-circle.

Thank you disturbed666

[chesticles]

its chesticles lol

[Aprone]

its chesticles lol

Sorry about that

[nightbloom]

If you must alter the normal operation of the game, then it is illegal.

-cough-pk2-cough-

shit, guess we're all banned. ¬_¬''

I have never once altered my pk2 file. It's a pain to do, a waste of time, and I dont like to muck about with files that work perfectly fine. There are enough ppl I know who do it to see what my char would look like with other kinds of armors.

[Slugfest]

Anyone that has spent 2 minutes on these forums knows that this community does not condone the use of bots. Dozens of us have voiced our concerns about the problem.

For a change, lets consider the other 3rd party programs which are not bots. Does this community sneer at any-and-all forms of game modification?

I, for one, do not. I think that your "program" is quite nice actually. However, knowing that JoyMax has stated that something as harmless as PK2 editing is "illegal", I surely wouldn't want to draw attention to myself as you have with this "program". Its great eye candy, but worth getting banned? I dont think so. I of course DESPISE the typical bots in ANY mmo - i.e. the gold botters, illegal website spammers, and the ks'ing hoardes that infest all the leveling areas - and wish that their owners would be dragged out of their homes, beaten and left in a ditch somewhere to rot. On the other hand, I play in another MMO that has a fansite that is basically a searchable price check...makes it simple to sell and buy items for the RIGHT price and not get scammed or lose money. This website, of course, maintains this site by using several bot characters for the sole purpose of patroling each town accumulating a vast database of prices. Naturally, there are those like myself that see exception to the botting rules in this case. Others do not.

This is a good topic. It really proves that sometimes things aren't as black vs. white as some might believe.

[Aprone]

Slugfest, I enjoyed reading your post. Very constructive, plus I do like hearing from people who think like I do.

[HertogJan]

Aprone, I find it amazing that you ask people there opinion about youre program and then are to stubborn to just accept that they have a different opinion.

First of all I kinda like this program, but I would still want to get it out of the game. It gives you an advantage over other people playing the game, how minor the advantage might be.

And to compare it to vent/ts is just crazy in my opinion. Vent/Ts are programs with a total different task. If you think those are illegal, you probably dont want me and my brother playing in rooms next to eachother and shouting to eachother while thiefing? Common, be real.

If I take a look at this program from the most neutral point, its kinda harsh maybe but for me it should go under the bot programs. Bots also give people advantage over other people and are illegal, this doesnt bot for you. But does give you an advantage over other people while you are doing nothing

[exality]

lol so if vent is a 3rd party program, does theat mean im gunna get banned for using my cell phone to communicate as well?

[Krad_Red]

If you must alter the normal operation of the game, then it is illegal.

-cough-pk2-cough-

shit, guess we're all banned. ¬_¬''

I have never once altered my pk2 file. It's a pain to do, a waste of time, and I dont like to muck about with files that work perfectly fine. There are enough ppl I know who do it to see what my char would look like with other kinds of armors.

What I mean is that if these rules of yours were so rigidly followed and interpreted, than more than 75% of the members of this forum would no longer belong to this community, considering they openly admit to doing it, heck if this were the case, than even many of the moderators would be banned from the forums.

[Millenium]

I'll be freaked out if I see every stall name in Hotan scrolling. Holy OMG =.= The lag will kill me and my computer.

[Infstdraynor]

I believe in the post replying Nightbloom you've made it clear that you do not think that you're program is a third party program.

How so?! That entire quote you just listed is me citing similarities between my program and how Nightbloom describes Vent and Teamspeak. I have been saying since the start that Vent and Teamspeak are third party programs.

If I clearly said I do not believe my program is a third party program, please specifically point it out to me.

I am running out of things to say to you sir... you seem to mysteriously forget posts that have been made earlier, claim that I am saying things exactly opposite to what I've said, and jump back to re-"prove" things that we have already agreed upon and moved past.


P.S.

Nightbloom, I brought this up because when I joined this community I initially jumped into two bot-themed posts. I have read how strictly the forum admins enforce bans, and I wanted to figure out exactly what of my own personal examples I could bring into those discussions.

I was given my answer by testic... er, the ballz guy (sorry I forgot the exact name) a long time back, but certain people continued to post questions/comments into this thread and I have responded to them. I am not trying to suck all of the attention to me, in fact, I was actually trying to end this thread a few posts ago after I saw it turning full-circle.

Thank you disturbed666

Funny how you seem only to remember the posts made by you and not by others. If you still don't see why your program shouldn't be exempt from being disallowed, then I'm to -step by step- on proving to you why your point of view is flawed.

1. You ask our opinion of should your third-party-program be allowed or not.

2. You state that vent/TS is in the same category as your macro, third-party-program.

3. I disagree with such opinion, and I continue to prove -why- vent is -not- a third party program.

4. No rebuttals made on your part, but rather, the irrational reject on the method of proof, and the continual restating of why vent is a third party programs without proof.

5. nightbloom also argue that vent is not a third party program.

6. I argue and prove why it [your program] is not and should not be categorized as the same classification as vent, and unlike vent, your program is a third party program.

7. You rebuttal that your program is not a third party program, and therefore not illegal.

8. I prove to you in further detail why it is.

9. You somehow ignore my argument, and state that your program is not a third party program:

How many posts did I make where I said this is a third party program?

also without proof.

10. I rebut your argument by quoting you implying that your program is not a third party program.

11. You reject my proof of why Vent and TS are not third party programs, again, without any evidence or proof, and further ignore my argument of that it is, in fact, categorized under third-party-programs.

From anyone with any slightest sense of logic in debating, they could easily see that you do not support your arguments with -any- evidence, while at the same time irrationally reject other's opinion unless they are equal of yours. It appears to me that you do not seek opinion from the creation of the topic, but rather, seek approval.

[borat2]

vent and ts do not do anything with the game and therefore should not be considered as a 3rd party program.

but anything (a macro, any kind of change to the client or files, or anything that changes the game for example block function) is considered as a 3rd party program and might get you a ban.

[Aprone]

Look at your points #7 and 10... why do you still say I don't believe my program is a "third party program"? If you read back, I have said that it IS in many posts, and I have never said that it was not. You can't even get your info straight.... you know what... just never mind. This is just sad.

Infstdraynor, I am tired of this thread but it seems that you need some personal closure. I'll help you out so this can finally end!

*clears throat*

Infstdraynor has been right all along everybody! My program is a third party program. TS and Vent are not 3rd party programs. My program alters the game client. My program hooks the game client. My program bypasses Game guard. My program alters Game guard. My program is a bot. My program gives an unfair advantage. My program is not run by trained hampsters. I searched the internet and finally found this forum where I could seek the approval of you all! Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, it illegally packet edits too! It alters JMs files. It uses PK2 editing. It is a leveler bot, an SP calculator, character builder, and even mimics all of the features of WINE for linux! It cannot function when separated from the Silkroad client. (Admit it, it's an impressive piece of software!)


There, you win. Let it go.