lionshout in PVP

[Barotix]

He talks about it from the stand point of how his Warlock would function in a mix party. There is a lot more supporting mix than Euro parties, if there is anything.

Read my Bold edits, his only allusion to Chinese was the Phantom reference. I told you , blood, you don't want to know what a warlock could do to your party. It is the most frightening thing imaginable, thankfully Da_Realist kindly listed it out for me. Blood if that was the only thing you can draw from Da_Realist post then i must refer you to my quote of Judge on page 4.

A great memory combined with amazing comprehension and a high vocabulary will make your battle in proving a point quite, quite, difficult. I think this is your cue to call me a "Farking Idiot"

Da_Realist knows and understands the Semantics and possibilities a European party yields, he just has a preference for Mixed parties.

Difference in taste, is all it is.

[BloodOwnzzz]

I am calling you a "Farking Idiot" because I cannot say F_ucking Idiot...

I know what a Warlock does. Not only am I able to read the guide in the guides section, but I have played Warlocks myself and my friend got information out of Da_Realest himself for me when I made mine.

You are just to stubborn to admit that there is something better than Euro parties because you expect something that is specifically geared to partying to be better than a mix of builds that all aren't. Your build is simple minded and revolves around Protecting your Wizards so they can deal damage. But when you get to the point where you can make a party that will protect against Wizards with 3 characters than there is no point to making a Full Euro party. With mix parties instead we can use more unique characters that can help shutdown your build which will beat your party. You don't NEED Wizards in PvP parties. You can use them but you can make BETTER parties with a mix of builds that are not only Invincible to your Wizards but also are geared towards disabling both your Defense and Offense which in fact makes your party useless in comparison.

It might be the best party in PvE but it can be out shined by mixing builds to specifically stop your build, which is exactly what a mix party does...

Now stop dragging me into this I already said you won so w/e...

[Barotix]

I am calling you a "Farking Idiot" because I cannot say F_ucking Idiot...

I know what a Warlock does. Not only am I able to read the guide in the guides section, but I have played Warlocks myself and my friend got information out of Da_Realest himself for me when I made mine.

You are just to stubborn to admit that there is something better than Euro parties because you expect something that is specifically geared to partying to be better than a mix of builds that all aren't. Your build is simple minded and revolves around Protecting your Wizards so they can deal damage. But when you get to the point where you can make a party that will protect against Wizards with 3 characters than there is no point to making a Full Euro party. With mix parties instead we can use more unique characters that can help shutdown your build which will beat your party. You don't NEED Wizards in PvP parties. You can use them but you can make BETTER parties with a mix of builds that are not only Invincible to your Wizards but also are geared towards disabling both your Defense and Offense which in fact makes your party useless in comparison.

It might be the best party in PvE but it can be out shined by mixing builds to specifically stop your build, which is exactly what a mix party does...

Now stop dragging me into this I already said you won so w/e...

You know you don't have to respond to me. Its actually a tie. We agree to disagree its personal taste. I prefer all Euro because of the Endless possibilities (a small amount of which da_realist and i listed), and you prefer a mix with mostly Euro because you think my party revolves around the Wizard. (as if the wizard is the only dmg ), but since you insist on not understanding i will lay out the thread for you:

• You post a picture
• I say that picture is ok, but not the best
• You respond with a statement geared towards botted parties
• I respond with a an anti-botted party post.
• You say Pve =/= PvP
• I say that most of what you learn on the grind as a Euro is easily applied in PvP, therefore PvE (for euros) = Pvp (to a certain extent)
• You say kill the cleric
• I tell you why you can't and how it can be prevented
• So you say Kill the wizard
• I tell you why you can't and how it can be prevented
• Then you say My party is all about keeping the wizard alive
• I post: "its about keeping the party alive"
• You repeat protect the wizard and say absolute
• I tell you why absolute won't work as expected and how it can be prevented
• You get angry and give up
• Topic goes back to Lionshout
• Raini comes in with utter absurdity
• I lol and respond
• Da_Realist Responds for raini, but ends up adding to the European stew
• I respond letting him know he made my stew taste better
• You respond with warlock point of view
• I respond saying its a difference in taste (it could've ended here)
• You get angry
• I list out this thread's arguments

[BloodOwnzzz]

Lol um dude I proved you wrong every time. You are the one who changed the topic everytime you make this seem like I am the one doing it.

And dude you never proved why your Wizards won't get 1 hit by Absolute damage other than using Oblation which makes their damage absolute shit.

Your party is about keeping the Wizards alive because you sure as hell don't need to keep your Clerics and Warriors alive in the parties because they are hard as hell to kill even when alone. You are protecting the weakest member of the party which requires heavy protection. If it only depended on keeping the party alive all you would need is 3 people to keep Bless Spell up permanently.

And I have no idea what you mean about the AoE not working.

Like I said I wasn't even going to begin butchering that last post before I gave up. But Mango happened to help me by leading me up into the point I would have said in that extra immunities on top of Holy Spell prevents disease from actually boosting the chance of any of your Wizards so called "party skills". So I got to the point in which your Wizards only have 20 seconds of reduced Physical Damage to offer the party...

You are the one who is dragging me back into this. Just stop being so dense and stop. You are a shitty mod if you are the one who is causing this to go on when I was the one to stop this. You blatantly come out and insult my intelligence and then show me in a bad way so that I would lose the argument when in fact you are the one who was proven wrong and change the argument and I am the one to give up and stop because of how you just make it more and more ridiculous because you don't understand everything about the game but you insist on arguing with me with these stupid points...

[Barotix]

Lol um dude I proved you wrong every time. You are the one who changed the topic everytime you make this seem like I am the one doing it.

And dude you never proved why your Wizards won't get 1 hit by Absolute damage other than using Oblation which makes their damage absolute shit.

Your party is about keeping the Wizards alive because you sure as hell don't need to keep your Clerics and Warriors alive in the parties because they are hard as hell to kill even when alone. You are protecting the weakest member of the party which requires heavy protection. If it only depended on keeping the party alive all you would need is 3 people to keep Bless Spell up permanently.

And I have no idea what you mean about the AoE not working.

Like I said I wasn't even going to begin butchering that last post before I gave up. But Mango happened to help me by leading me up into the point I would have said in that extra immunities on top of Holy Spell prevents disease from actually boosting the chance of any of your Wizards so called "party skills". So I got to the point in which your Wizards only have 20 seconds of reduced Physical Damage to offer the party...

You are the one who is dragging me back into this. Just stop being so dense and stop. You are a shitty mod if you are the one who is causing this to go on when I was the one to stop this. You blatantly come out and insult my intelligence and then show me in a bad way so that I would lose the argument when in fact you are the one who was proven wrong and change the argument and I am the one to give up and stop because of how you just make it more and more ridiculous because you don't understand everything about the game but you insist on arguing with me with these stupid points...

You know nightbloom's avatar, i think you need to read it. Now i want you to read our arguments closely, because i am keeping it civil (but everyone has a limit). You make audacious assumptions and comments. You are getting frustrated kick back, and breath; it helps.

Now i want you to line up our arguments the way Da_Realist lines up arguments, and you will notice something a pattern: Not once did you back up anything, you made statement after statement, which each time I responded in the most appropriate manner i saw fit. Being a mod has nothing to do with having an educated discussion, I listed facts, I listed strategies, I pointed out why you can't kill so and so (at this cap) the only time i mentioned later caps was with equations to show that the Nuker has the potential to seriously out damage the wizard, but we're nowhere near the 120 cap. We're at the 80 cap, and at the 80 cap last i checked Pure European Parties make mixed parties look pitiful. I have not belittled you, I have not challenged your intellect, I just stated facts, and you in response, got all angry and kept on talking about wizards with a 100 - 120 cap mentality. Becoming a mod doesn't mean I'm no longer allowed to post in threads, its not my fault that you keep responding. I'm waiting for Da_Realist's Topic ending post, I'm sure he will blow us both out of the water.

Let me list it out for you in a different manner (party wise):

80 cap: Pure European Party, overpowered.
90 cap: Pure European Party, slightly overpowered, but manageable
100 cap: Mixed = European (In terms of capabilities AKA potential)
110 cap-120+: Mixed = European (In terms of capabilities AKA potential)

At the 80 cap i would prefer a wizard
At the 90 cap i would prefer a wizard
at the 100 cap i would prefer the chinese spear nuker, because it is better at doing the dmg job and i don't need to save his ass. This trend will continue.

By the 140 cap there will be clear defined lines:
Euro Pure Party Awesome
Chinese Pure party sucks (when compared to European)
Islam Pure party Balanced (information points towards "a'ight"
Mixed party Islam Europe China = Pure Euro party (in terms of capabilities)

EDIT: i would like you to point out where i was proven wrong, merely typing you were proven wrong will not be sufficient, you must back it up.

I like to think with a Science frame of mind, all my arguments are subject to change and adaptation as the argument changes. What you have been doing though is: disregarding my arguments and only Talking about how i protect wizards (hint: i protect everyone). If the cleric wasn't protected wouldn't one strongbow crit (as Raini piointed out) kill the cleric? If the warrior wasn't well protected wouldn't one Fire Nuke (as seen twice in Da_Realist PvP vid) destroy the warrior? The wizard has defensive skills other than Earth Fence. Da_Realist calls them: interruption skills. Now tell me blood, how will you go about using you r absolute dmg skill if my party is geared toward preventing any deaths in general.

Your argument has been: I protect Wizards and you kill them with absolute dmg, i told you how much absolute AoE does at THIS CAP (later caps its like 10k, 12k, 14k, 16k, 21k <~ scary) not later caps, but as Da_Realist typed: "What are the chances that a perfect opening will be in the party (any party) long enough for you to kill anyone. It will be hard to kill any party (thanks to europeans), but not impossible. I never said you can't i just said how i would stop you from doing it. Of course you can kill them, but there is that possibility of being stopped. I explain that possibility and the numerous ways to bring your party to a halt on page 3 and 4. Da_Realist explains how any and all parties can be stopped on page 5, but also points out how hard it will be. You don't explain, you don't tell me how you can counter my counter, you just get angry respond (in a angry manner) and recently started typing that displays my modding capabilities as sub-par. ( i didn't realize mods can't act like normal members <~ mobs are members too not just big bad meanies with a tag).

[BloodOwnzzz]

I dunno what you mean...(I don't really see much of any arguments either one of us posted in their) And anyway I don't need to put up actual examples of how a Wizard with LT can get 1 hit by Absolute damage...

All I can see is basically stuff that I mostly agree with anyway...

Except for 140 cap. I was the one to mainly bring that up but Fly showed it will most likely be 120 cap even though they originally planned for 140.

[MrFudge]

didnt this all start with barotix sayin wiz would be better than chinese int nukers at 100cap+ ?

well he just said.

at the 100 cap i would prefer the chinese spear nuker, because it is better at doing the dmg job and i don't need to save his ass. This trend will continue

kinda sounds like a john kerry flipflop.
so its over and done with.

back to lion shouts. :S

[NuclearSilo]

Dont underestimate chinese at cap 140 lol. Bow range is 27m + 3m strongbow = 30m => u hardly see him on the map.

[Barotix]

didnt this all start with barotix sayin wiz would be better than chinese int nukers at 100cap+ ?

well he just said.

at the 100 cap i would prefer the chinese spear nuker, because it is better at doing the dmg job and i don't need to save his ass. This trend will continue

kinda sounds like a john kerry flipflop.
so its over and done with.

back to lion shouts. :S

I did equations, The only thing that makes wizard better in 1v1 is that staff and certain skills. Other than that the spear nuker seriously tops the charts in damage.

@Fudge, lol so you would stick to a past argument in light of data that shows its wrong? All i did was cut my losses -_-, I'm not gonna try and back up something that I know is wrong. (re-did calculations in History class while a teacher was giving an Economics speech)

Bold = extra added info

EDIT:

I like to think with a Science frame of mind, all my arguments are subject to change, adaptation as the argument changes, and as i obtain more information.

could we be done now, i enjoy discussions a lot and have a tendency to respond a lot.

[Da_Realest]

In a European only party it would be so hard to kill the Cleric let alone the warrior that their deaths are implausible so long as they are together. Cleric Warrior and vice-versa.

That not a fact. In the average European party, its not hard to kill the Cleric.

You can't kill the warrior period, mixed or not, and in the unlikely occurrence one warrior dies you will still have another doing its job, pop one oblation and he is back in the game. Thankfully you realize this . In the chance that to many people die because of subs (cleric) on group res and the entire party is back in action. Once a European party starts there is no stopping it, but you can slow it down. Chinese do as Chinese will, and will always be awesome, but Their not Group Mentality Material. They're more of "gang this class because its dangerous Mentality" XD

But you said "..kill the warrior.." in a early statement and now you're saying a Warrior can't be killed. I've fought warriors before and they weren't as difficult to defeat as you make it seem. Also, you don't have to kill someone to render them combat ineffective...

And again you're assuming you going to always be in a situation that favors you. Who said the Cleric will be alive or even be in range to reverse obligation? How are you so sure the Cleric won't be stunned, sleep, under scorn, kded, etc.

So just because Europeans come along Chinese are no longer group players? I see... And whats wrong with "gang this class because its dangerous Mentality?"

The absorptions apply to the European Party as well and are better applied in a European party. The really is any argument here, why are you so adamant? I proved your point when i typed: "Chinese stand alone well" and agreed that they are great killing machines(with style ) Also with only bards and cleric buffs that won't be on nonstop (you know what buff) i think i won't have trouble one shotting your group. I said it over and over only a European Party can defeat a European Party (it will be hard) but its the fact, and here you are helping me get my point across, thx mate

And so you already know the area at which the fight will take place? The average war/fight or whatever you want to call it takes place outside a gate. Bards aren't going to die if they're in the safe zone. Clerics could be in the safe zone as well for a good measure, but I don't think its as necessary as it is for a bard.

The average warrior does not have support buffs, nor does he/she has a nice +7 sword and a +4 and +5 full blue set. Thats not a difficult warrior to kill. The odds of encountering a Warlock are slim so you can factor that build out. Bards are also quite rare. Many wizard and rogues players have a one many army mentality. In this sense, a mixed party is easily superior to a full European party.

(Just tossing this in here, but just because someone botted up their Euro doesn't mean they "don't know how to play euro" or because someone handgrinded their Euro doesn't automatically mean they know are any better. A typical SRO build has about a 15 minute learning curve to be able to use it effectively and efficiently. I think everyone knows "the right way" to play most builds, but prefer to play the build their way.)

Furthermore, you switch between the point of views throughout your argument. In doing so, you attempt to express your personal opinion as fact and confuse me at times... A quote...

You can't kill the warrior...

Who's warrior? Your warrior? The warrior of the average SRO player? I'm pretty sure I could kill the latter.

I'll make this clear that I'm speaking from a general perspective. I don't care how your party would function. Thats irrelevant to me. I'm speaking on everyday encounters that the average player faces or goes through. I'm not going to deny that I took the time to outline certain scenarios(but not in great detail)to counter your party, but I realized its just perpetual nonsense because you can just say, XXX can one shot him, XXX can do that too, XXX can res, etc.

However, if you insist on having a proper discussion on how a full European party is better than a mixed party then create a legitimate scenario such as...

What builds(and/or subs) would your party consist of?
Where would the fight take place?
What type of gear would the players be wearing?
Are they farmed or not?
What level cap?
What buffs are casted or are ready to be casted?
Which side would be on the offensive?
Are the opposing sides aware of the builds that each other have?

Do that and I'll gladly outline to you in detail why I believe a mix party would do better than a full European party.

[ThisIsAvalon]

didnt this all start with barotix sayin wiz would be better than chinese int nukers at 100cap+ ?

well he just said.

at the 100 cap i would prefer the chinese spear nuker, because it is better at doing the dmg job and i don't need to save his ass. This trend will continue

kinda sounds like a john kerry flipflop.
so its over and done with.

back to lion shouts. :S

I did equations, The only thing that makes wizard better in 1v1 is that staff and certain skills. Other than that the spear nuker seriously tops the charts in damage.

Bold = extra added info

EDIT:

I like to think with a Science frame of mind, all my arguments are subject to change and adaptation as the argument changes and as i obtain more information.

could we be done now, i enjoy discussions a lot and have a tendency to respond a lot.

Okay, I drew you all a nice little picture. I pegged BloodOwnzzz for the visual type.


Lets see how to explain this..... The BIGGER number hits more okay? Do you under......stand...? 7635 > 4217. Did they teach you this yet in 3rd grade math class?






Hope my picture helps you a bit...... as you can CLEARLY see, the wizard has actually 2 TIMES more damage then a sword/shield, not to mention spear. Now tell me, HOW will you not get 1 shot? This picture doesnt even count a CLERIC, BARD, GEAR, and many other essential pieces, and it already shows that chinese doesnt even come close. Chinese nuker at this cap can do 7k nukes max, with the same gear as a wizard, while the wizard does 20k+ easily on the same target.

[Barotix]

^This guy is great (@Da_Realist). He repeats stuff i type

Avalon (no homo)

What builds(and/or subs) would your party consist of?
Where would the fight take place?
What type of gear would the players be wearing?
Are they farmed or not?
What level cap?
What buffs are casted or are ready to be casted?
Which side would be on the offensive?
Are the opposing sides aware of the builds that each other have?

before i start i would like to say: Everything you requested i asked of from Blood. I always assume there is no safe zone involved, that the components are in-range of each other, that they units are Fully blued and Fully Farmed, i disregard sun, i type from an 80 cap perspective (because that is the only cap i have personally experience: i don't fancy speculation), i assume all buffs are up excluding the "Uber" ones (bs and screen), I'm always on the defensive as page 3, and 4 should tell you, and of course we are aware of each other because Blood stated his party: (5 glaivers a cleric and 2 bards) then i proposed my counter. I asked for what you asked and assumed that What i typed would be understood from a no-safezone defensive 80 cap fully buffed excluding emergency buffs fully blued and farmed perspective. And since blood and I stated each others parties i also thought it was understood that both parties are aware of the enemy builds. I guess assumptions really do make and ass out of u and me (ass/u/me ). At least now you will understand why i said you repeat what i say, or should i say: we think alike and i excluded operational definitions because i assumed they were understood (which they weren't -_-)

2 full warriors 1h, 2h, DA and cleric subs
2 Wizards, Cleric sub
1 cleric, sub wizard
1 warlock, sub cleric.
1 rogue, sub bard.
1 bard, sub cleric.
^Not the best party, but i like to experiment.

Bowl Takla, No safe Zone.
Full Blued, No Sun.
80 cap. Skills updated to 80.
Fully Farmed in Their Main classes, and Sub Classes.
Quota, Fence, Tambours, Dance, Blesses, Scream masks, etc (there are a lot of buffs): the basics everything excluding Screens, Bless Spell, and Earth fence. Ready to cast: Screens Quotas Bless spells, Res (in its various forms)
Chinese will be on the Offensive
They are Fully aware (This opens up endless possibilities of counter - arguments, meaning this argument just about ended )

[BloodOwnzzz]

Wizard mastery does not raise up their damage. Natural Spirit series is its equivalent. That's why we don't see like 5000 1H Warrior/Clerics that beat the shit out of pretty much every class.

Same Scenario as Barotix but 1 little extra. Figure in the Bows have their 2nd KB combo for unlimited KB.

Full Str Warrior/Cleric 1H x2 (Neither have Vital Increase)
Full Int Chinese Nukers x3 Light/Spear/Ice (Mostly on S/S set but figure they can switch very efficiently)
Full Str Bow x2 Bow/Fire/Light/Ice ("Told" to concentrate on KB of Wizards and Clerics)
Hybrid Cleric/Xxxxxxx x1 (Mostly Orbits and uses Absolute regularly, has Healing Favor for Power Heal)

[NuclearSilo]

[quote="ThisIsAvalon"][quote="Barotix"][quote="MrFudge"]didnt this all start with barotix sayin wiz would be better than chinese int nukers at 100cap+ ?

well he just said.
[quote="Barotix"]
at the 100 cap i would prefer the chinese spear nuker, because it is better at doing the dmg job and i don't need to save his ass. This trend will continue[/quote]


kinda sounds like a john kerry flipflop.
so its over and done with.

back to lion shouts. :S[/quote]

I did equations, The only thing that makes wizard better in 1v1 is that staff and certain skills. Other than that the spear nuker seriously tops the charts in damage.

Bold = extra added info

EDIT:
[quote="Barotix"]I like to think with a Science frame of mind, all my arguments are subject to change and adaptation as the argument changes [b]and as i obtain more information.[/b][/quote]

could we be done now, i enjoy discussions a lot and have a tendency to respond a lot.[/quote]

Okay, I drew you all a nice little picture. I pegged BloodOwnzzz for the visual type.


Lets see how to explain this..... The BIGGER number hits more okay? Do you under......stand...? 7635 > 2435. Did they teach you this yet in 3rd grade math class?

[img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9312/durrrrrrrrrrrrco5.jpg[/img]




Hope my picture helps you a bit...... as you can CLEARLY see, the wizard has actually 3 TIMES more damage then a sword/shield, not to mention spear. Now tell me, HOW will you not get 1 shot? This picture doesnt even count a CLERIC, BARD, GEAR, and many other essential pieces, and it already shows that chinese doesnt even come close. Chinese nuker at this cap can do 7k nukes max, with the same gear as a wizard, while the wizard does 20k+ easily on the same target.[/quote]
Wtf double increase from mastery and natural spirit is so cheat lol. But it doesnt seems so when we watch ksro pvp.

Why compare sosun sword and not spear?

And dont forget to divide euro dmg by 3 coz they dont have mana shield

[ThisIsAvalon]

Wizard mastery does not raise up their damage. Natural Spirit series is its equivalent. That's why we don't see like 5000 1H Warrior/Clerics that beat the shit out of pretty much every class.

So joymax just put in the Wizard Attack Power 120% increase there for nothing?


Okay, lets ASSUME it doesnt do anything. The Natural spirit and the chinese one are both 120%, so they cancel each other out. Both sides can get cleric/bard buffs/pimp their gears. The only variables is weapon strength, and magical attack increases.


For weapons : you can CLEARLY see staff outgunns a chinese weapon.

For buffs : Life Turnover? 2000 magical attack increase? Almost adding another weapon on....


@Nuclear, nivlam's spears are bugged at that high of a lvl, you can go see yourself. It wouldnt make that much of a diff anyways, especially on these odds.

And dont forget to divide euro dmg by 3 coz they dont have mana shield

After you calculate in reinforce, and mastey, i'd gladly divide damage by whatever mana shield gives. Its funny to nuke people and watch their skills cancel as soon as you nuke them, because they dont have anymore mp.

[BloodOwnzzz]

Super quoting fail gogogogo... Lol

[ThisIsAvalon]

Super quoting fail gogogogo... Lol

Thx for finally seeing my point. NOW can this thread die?

[BloodOwnzzz]

Meant for silo... =|

We can solve the Wizard thing by casting a Lvl 1 Spell with and without Lvl 1 Natural Spirit. Lvl 4 is hard to get though...

[Barotix]

Super quoting fail gogogogo... Lol

Thx for finally seeing my point. NOW can this thread die?

Da_Realist's is about to defeat me soon because he wants to talk about everyday encounters between average players and not rare encounters between expectational players. I'm just waiting for him to post his mind blowing post, as usual (T_T)

[ThisIsAvalon]

Super quoting fail gogogogo... Lol

Thx for finally seeing my point. NOW can this thread die?

Da_Realist's is about to defeat me soon because he wants to talk about everyday encounters between average players and not rare encounters between expectational players. I'm just waiting for him to post his mind blowing post, as usual (T_T)

Unless he can rip apart the fiber of the universe, and change it so 1+1 < 1, I don't know how hes gonna wiggle it outta this one...

[NuclearSilo]

Super quoting fail gogogogo... Lol

It's not quoting fail. I did it in purpose. It didnt let me have more than 3 quotes and Im lazy to edit everything...

After you calculate in reinforce, and mastey, i'd gladly divide damage by whatever mana shield gives. Its funny to nuke people and watch their skills cancel as soon as you nuke them, because they dont have anymore mp.

I dont know how to calculate dmg and u dont know either. But im sure when u divide 7k smt by 3 it's like 2.3k only < 4.3k.
And that work only when the nivlam database is correct.

[Barotix]

Super quoting fail gogogogo... Lol

It's not quoting fail. I did it in purpose. It didnt let me have more than 3 quotes and Im lazy to edit everything...

After you calculate in reinforce, and mastey, i'd gladly divide damage by whatever mana shield gives. Its funny to nuke people and watch their skills cancel as soon as you nuke them, because they dont have anymore mp.

I dont know how to calculate dmg and u dont know either. But im sure when u divide 7k smt by 3 it's like 2.3k only < 4.3k.
And that work only when the nivlam database is correct.

Thats why you disregard def and assume both are atking a mangyang. (wishes he knew how def factors into dmg)

[NuclearSilo]

Players are not mangyangs.

When a wizard hit a mangyang for 150k dmg, and a spear nuker hit for 100k. The difference is 50k dmg. But when u attack a caped players, nuker hit for 10k dmg, wizard are not going to hit 60k dmg. Maybe u understand this.

If mangyang has 70% snow shield, wizard dmg would be 50k dmg >.>

[Barotix]

Players are not mangyangs.

When a wizard hit a mangyang for 150k dmg, and a spear nuker hit for 100k. The difference is 50k dmg. But when u attack a caped players, nuker hit for 10k dmg, wizard are not going to hit 60k dmg. Maybe u understand this.

If mangyang has 70% snow shield, wizard dmg would be 50k dmg >.>

There are other factors besides snowshield thats why i put (wishes he knew how joymax calculates dmg) >.>

@bloood, i factored in imbue, but in light of this new 120% boost I'm estimating roughly 120k average for Wizard naked, and 150k max. Just a guess off the top of my head though so don't take it as fact.

EDIT: LOL, seems joymax doesn't like melting pots.

EDIT: Look @ Avalon coming in here doing what the rest of us were afraid to do (he is posting facts >.>). (I'm editing instead of posting because i don't need to up my post count)

EDIT: @blood he was doing 1v1 not PartyVSParty.

[BloodOwnzzz]

I dunno I kinda saw a difference but I did it on my Hera character which has Premium + Suit and is Lvl 27 I cant really say if it's accurate but the math does work. I have to say though if it does seriously work than that is just super hax. Euros should not get an extra 120% extra damage over Chinese characters...

I just will never be able to really accept that this is true it is absolute BS. Maybe it is true after all that weapon masteries raise your Magical attack damage...

And don't forget that the Chinese nukes are not only stronger in damage but they also get the damage added from Imbue too.

[ThisIsAvalon]

Okay, lets talk about mana shield now if you want...... sigh.... At the 140 cap, a chinese nuker has a few choices for mastery:

Fire 140/Light 140/Ice 20 - Gets a 20% ice shield

Light 140/Weapon 140/Ice 20 - Gets a 20% ice shield

Light 140/Ice 140/Whatever 20 - Gets a huge shield.


Those are 3 main builds that will be in 140 cap for chinese int. Lets say its the 3rd build. Ice shield lasts for 120 secs, right? Bless spell lasts for 45 seconds. The wizard casts bless, you cast ice. That means you have 45 extra seconds of ice shield that the wizard isnt blessed. Assuming you maxxed ice shield, you would be taking 70% of the dmg dealt to you MP. How would you be able to nuke with 30% mp left? Nukers at the 80 cap have 20k mp max, take away 70%, and your at 6000. Level 80 nuke takes 3500 mp, and imbue takes 1600. You would get nukes twice by the wizard, and then anything after that will leave you not being able to attack back, or just plain dead.

Fire nukes have 330% at the cap, while ice nukes only have 300%. So, if you went ice for the SNOW SHIELD, you will be SACRIFICING DAMAGE.



Chinese nukes arent stronger then euro nukes. They both have the same magical attack, but euros have higher % on their nukes. Lava trap does (439%), same as Meteor (439%). EarthQuake is at (390%). The closest a chinese nuke comes is 330%.

[BloodOwnzzz]

That's assuming you take your MP in damage.(Which you probably won't anyway with Warriors and Clerics)

Yeh I can see Wizards dealing 90k damage at level 140.(Insert Sarcasm wherever)

Earth Nuke is stronger but Ice Nuke and Meteor have less actual damage at 140 than Fire Nukes. On top of that the Chinese get Imbue which pretty much equals it out I bet. But seriously this whole argument is down to, is half hp worth it, if the Wizards mastery seriously will deal an extra 120% damage over them.

But I have to agree with Silo here. The kSRO videos are favoring the Chinese Nukers over the Wizards from what I've seen.

[ThisIsAvalon]

That's assuming you take your MP in damage.(Which you probably won't anyway with Warriors and Clerics)

Yeh I can see Wizards dealing 90k damage at level 140.(Insert Sarcasm wherever)

90k damage? Nah, thats too low. Try more like 150K. This is how much hp a fully pimped lvl 140 will have, and wizards can easily 1 shot a fully pimped pure str with LT on for over 125% of their health. 90K is puny as hell dude...

[BloodOwnzzz]

Lol at 51 Str Force Deity >_>...

Still it's Full Int prob with garms and with Clerics and Warrior buffs for backup, if you get super buffs why can't we?, which will pretty much make the damage a lot lower and with garms the MP cost won't matter.

[Da_Realest]

before i start i would like to say: Everything you requested i asked of from Blood. I always assume there is no safe zone involved, that the components are in-range of each other, that they units are Fully blued and Fully Farmed, i disregard sun, i type from an 80 cap perspective (because that is the only cap i have personally experience: i don't fancy speculation), i assume all buffs are up excluding the "Uber" ones (bs and screen), I'm always on the defensive as page 3, and 4 should tell you, and of course we are aware of each other because Blood stated his party: (5 glaivers a cleric and 2 bards) then i proposed my counter. I asked for what you asked and assumed that What i typed would be understood from a no-safezone defensive 80 cap fully buffed excluding emergency buffs fully blued and farmed perspective. And since blood and I stated each others parties i also thought it was understood that both parties are aware of the enemy builds. I guess assumptions really do make and ass out of u and me (ass/u/me ). At least now you will understand why i said you repeat what i say, or should i say: we think alike and i excluded operational definitions because i assumed they were understood (which they weren't -_-)

Not using this as an excuse, but I didn't start reading until the 5th pages excluding the reply that I made on the 3rd page that was about the topic at hand. I was bored so I decided to join the Euro vs Mixed discussion...

2 full warriors 1h, 2h, DA and cleric subs
2 Wizards, Cleric sub
1 cleric, sub wizard
1 warlock, sub cleric.
1 rogue, sub bard.
1 bard, sub cleric.
^Not the best party, but i like to experiment.

Bowl Takla, No safe Zone.
Full Blued, No Sun.
80 cap. Skills updated to 80.
Fully Farmed in Their Main classes, and Sub Classes.
Quota, Fence, Tambours, Dance, Blesses, Scream masks, etc (there are a lot of buffs): the basics everything excluding Screens, Bless Spell, and Earth fence. Ready to cast: Screens Quotas Bless spells, Res (in its various forms)
Chinese will be on the Offensive
They are Fully aware (This opens up endless possibilities of counter - arguments, meaning this argument just about ended )

What + gear? I'm going to assume just +3. I disagree with the no suns part. I guess its ok, though.

My party:
Full Str Glaive Fire/Light/Heuskal/Ice - 80/80/80/60 - Wearing Protector
2 Full STR Bow Users Fire/Light/Bow/Ice - 80/80/80/60 - One wearing Armor, the other wearing Garments
Warlock/Cleric - 80/80
Warrior/Cleric - 80/80 - Wearing Garments
Rogue/Warrior - 80/80 - Wearing Light Armor
Cleric/Bard - 80/80
Bard/Wizard - 80/80

Buffs casted: Everyone has Holy Spell casted on them. Healing Orbit is also casted. The typical Chinese buffs including snow shield. Chinese chars also have detection skill casted. Bard/Wizard has mag def song casted. Cleric has buffs on the 3 Chinese chars and the Bard. Scream Mask is casted on the Pure Str Glaive and also on the Cleric/Bard. The Bow user is in armor and has Fire Wall casted at a safe attackable range. The Bow User in Garments has Ice Wall casted at an attackable range. The Warrior in Garments has the Fences casted on the Warlock/Cleric and the Cleric/Bard. The Warrior in Armor has Fences casted on the Bard/Wizard and the Bow user in Armor.

Ready to be casted: Basically everything you listed.

Being on the offensive, how shall I start....

My Cleric/Bard leads the way to attack your Cleric with absolute damage attacks....