CALCULATING DAMAGE, help to make a correct formula!

[glavie]

how much defense does a lvl 1character have with no gear? Perhaps that would be a better test subject than a mangyang?

[torinchibi]

Magic numbers (the *5 in your formula) must be derived from somewhere, there is no way the designers arbitrarily included a *5 somewhere for no reason.

There needs to be a *skill percent, since damage on skills depends heavily on percent and that can be seen with from a level 4 wizard that does more dmg with fire bolt than ice bolt.

I guess you thought doing weapon reinforce * int + weapon attacks actually yields your final attack values, and looking at stats that would be an accurate calculation so let's leave that as is.

Same with the base physical dmg, and I can see why the mastery would be included in the base stats.

Instead of using magic numbers, the final formula should be something like

(base attack power with weapon equipped + skill damage) * (skill % + balance %)

or maybe

(base attack power with weapon equipped * balance%) + (skill damage * skill %)

or even

[base attack power with weapon equipped + (skill dmg * skill %) * balance %]

[Selan88]

hmm.. are you sure that balance is part of the formula?
i mean balance depends on how much str or int you added but str/int already increases your base attack power.

btw is there any formula for healing spells? XD

i tried with different weapons on a pure str and pure int cleric and came up with this formula (which is probably wrong again ^^) :

Amount of Healing as shown in the skill description + Weapons mag. atk * percentage of weapon reflect * mag balance

maybe someone could try if this is right... it worked for me but i had only one heal skill to try it out.
i ignored mastery lvl of my cleric because i dont know if it increases healing as well... im not even sure if it increases damage because it doesnt say so when i put my mouse over the cleric mastery. when i look at my warlock mastery it says that warlock damage is increased by x %.

[glavie]

hmm.. are you sure that balance is part of the formula?
i mean balance depends on how much str or int you added but str/int already increases your base attack power.

There are 2 ways to look at it.
One like you said. Since balance is simply just a representation of your str and int points why would it be part of the formula.

2nd. why would the balance % not equal when comparing int and str. why is a 70%str : 70%int an int hybrid. If balances where just a representation of int and str then wouldn't 70:70 be equal number of str and int points?

[PileOfMush]

There is a min and max damage range. Attack Rating factors in to each attack to weight your dmg towards the min or max end of the damage spectrum, but does anyone have a model for how it works?

[elnawawi]

Instead of using magic numbers, the final formula should be something like

(base attack power with weapon equipped + skill damage) * (skill % + balance %)

or maybe

(base attack power with weapon equipped * balance%) + (skill damage * skill %)

or even

[base attack power with weapon equipped + (skill dmg * skill %) * balance %]

I was thinking about something like that all the time ..
I put all possible formula and tried them all .. and they all was wrong ..

Only this formula :
(base attack power with weapon equipped + skill damage) * (skill % + balance %)
worked with strong bow but didn't with all other skills
I don't think that we should have a constant to multipile in the damge formula .. not logical ..

I tried to test attack rating and parry ratio in the game .. but the max damge I do with hawk is the same without , also still the same even when using vital spot that decrease enemy parry ratio ...

But light effect " electric shock " do other thing .. it dosn't decrease the parry ratio because when enemy get elctric shock you don't attack him with your max often , no .. you will attack him with greater number and equal to fire imbue same lvl ..

I don't think that monster def is a value to sub from the damge formula .. don't say if you hit a lvl 1 monster with 100 k and lvl 80 monster with 10 k that lvl 80 monster have def + 90 k !!!! not logical ..

Also everybody when try to make a formula always forget the fire passive that increase phy attack by percentage ... they may remember the buff but always forget the passive .. only nuclear silo made this passive in her formula .. but I don't belive that 1.155 constant ..

I tried the formula with 2 of my old characters :

1st : lvl 20 69:70 bow , base phy attack 105~128 , fire passive lvl 1 give 1% phy attaack ..

I did 92 damge at max when used normal attack
formula:phyDmg=(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
phy damge = (128 - 8*2 + 1 ) * 0.69 * 1.01 * 1.155 = 90.9 = almost 91
it works if we said that all these numbers isn't the accurate numbers .. the phy balance may be 69.493437 % instead of 69%

2nd : lvl 32 Pure str bow , phy balance 94% , phy attack with weapon equiped 316~380 ... with passive 3% phy

The normal shot with no skill do 394 damge at max ...
But due to this formula :
formula:phyDmg=(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
phyDmg = (380 - 8*2 +1 ) * 0.94 * 1.03 * 1.155 = 408 ..
I did 394 not 408 ...!!!! that's big difference prove that formula is wrong ..

May be this 1.155 is for 70:70 bow not pure str bow .. that's mean there is another formula can give us real numbers for all builds .. I think that we should do something with that balance in the formula

Or it may be the monster def that have another place in the formula .. I suggest some one with angel wings try to use that (1% ignore monster def) and try it a lot till he have that 1% and record the number and then back to try his attacks against lvl 1 monster and copmare .. we may found new thing .. but the only problem is the attack range .. even when he get that 1% ignore def he might not get his highest damge so we need 10 numbers with no def mens 1000 try (if you aren't a botter it will be easy for you to notice these wonderful chances that will happen more than once a day )

[NuclearSilo]

I tried to test attack rating and parry ratio in the game .. but the max damge I do with hawk is the same without , also still the same even when using vital spot that decrease enemy parry ratio ...

do u know why? Because hawk has only one dmg, it doesnt have dmg range.

But light effect " electric shock " do other thing .. it dosn't decrease the parry ratio because when enemy get elctric shock you don't attack him with your max often , no .. you will attack him with greater number and equal to fire imbue same lvl ..

no

I don't think that monster def is a value to sub from the damge formula .. don't say if you hit a lvl 1 monster with 100 k and lvl 80 monster with 10 k that lvl 80 monster have def + 90 k !!!! not logical ..

it doesnt subtract from the dmg output but subtract in the dmg power before multiplying with any multiplier!

The normal shot with no skill do 394 damge at max ...
But due to this formula :
formula:phyDmg=(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
phyDmg = (380 - 8*2 +1 ) * 0.94 * 1.03 * 1.155 = 408 ..
I did 394 not 408 ...!!!! that's big difference prove that formula is wrong ..

In this case, just consider 1.155 depends on the balance, so make more test with different balance, u'll find it

[elnawawi]

first I don't speak about black hawk , I speak about the attack rating hawk .. that prove attack rating can't make your max damge go higher .. just give a chance to do your max often ..

About the elctric shock I tried it with light and fire imbue 1st book lvl 5 .. may be I'm wrong I will try to find character with both fire and light imbue and do the test again

it doesnt subtract from the dmg output but subtract in the dmg power before multiplying with any multiplier!

May be .. that's more logical ..

And about the 1.115 .. I will try when I have enough time and pure mind ..

[Silkroadfanatic]

zomg so much random numbers and formulas i feel like im in math class again xD

[frozendota]

i think that the difference in monster lvl and your lvl will be a factor as well

[hapnz]

One thing I noticed when hitting mangyangs was that Flame body-Extreme, that is supposed to give extra 7% to phy dmg, only gives 6,6%

normal max hit without imbue:
non buffed = 1981
buffed = 2112

so the difference here is 6,6%.

With this in mind, I started thinking that maybe the % on skills is not exact also. If so, its kinda hard to make up the right formula.

[NuclearSilo]

One thing I noticed when hitting mangyangs was that Flame body-Extreme, that is supposed to give extra 7% to phy dmg, only gives 6,6%

normal max hit without imbue:
non buffed = 1981
buffed = 2112

so the difference here is 6,6%.

With this in mind, I started thinking that maybe the % on skills is not exact also. If so, its kinda hard to make up the right formula.

What u just said is very very wrong

A buff doesnt increase your non-buffed dmg, but your base dmg.

U thought that your dmg is calculated like this? 1981*1.07
No it's wrong!

Assuming your phyPassive is 5%
The correct formula should be like this:
1981/1.05*1.12=2113 ~ 2112

1981/1.05 is your base dmg
1.12 because u got +12% phyDmg from all buff

As u can see (1.12/1.05) != 1.07

[hapnz]

One thing I noticed when hitting mangyangs was that Flame body-Extreme, that is supposed to give extra 7% to phy dmg, only gives 6,6%

normal max hit without imbue:
non buffed = 1981
buffed = 2112

so the difference here is 6,6%.

With this in mind, I started thinking that maybe the % on skills is not exact also. If so, its kinda hard to make up the right formula.

What u just said is very very wrong

A buff doesnt increase your non-buffed dmg, but your base dmg.

U thought that your dmg is calculated like this? 1981*1.07
No it's wrong!

Assuming your phyPassive is 5%
The correct formula should be like this:
1981/1.05*1.12=2113 ~ 2112

1981/1.05 is your base dmg
1.12 because u got +12% phyDmg from all buff

As u can see (1.12/1.05) != 1.07

I stand corrected, good explanation

[NuclearSilo]

Did someone make tests with this formula?
Come on, dont be lazy. Do u want to stay in the ignorance forever?

[elnawawi]

Yes I did tests before (but forget to post here) and the result was :

Wolf : & black hawk
Didn't try

Me : (normal shot)
I tried 3 characters with different balances to see :

1st : Pure STR lvl 32 , phy balance 94% , mag balance 32% , phy damge without weapon : 70 , and with weapon : 380 , mag attack 349 , fire passive : +3%

with fist :
Real damge was119
damge from the formula = B*2*phyBuff*phyBal-def
damge from the formula = (70*2*1.03*0.94) - 8 = 127.55

with weapon :
Real damge was 394
damge from the formula =(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
damge from the formula = (280 - 8*2 + 1) * 0.94 * 1.03 * 1.155 = 408

Imbue : 75~125(+100%) & fire mastery (lvl 31) ,
Real damge was : 609
damge from the formula =((BMag+ImbueDmg)*mastery)-def*2+1)*magBal*magBuff*1.155+phyDmg
damge from the formula = ((349+125)*1.30) - 8*2+1 ) * 0.32 * 1.155 + 394 = 616.2

Skill : Anti devil wave 64~86(+200%) & pacheon mastery (lvl 31)
Real damge was : 1221

Skill : Strong Bow 95(350%)
Real damge was : 2190

=============================================
2nd : Hybrid lvl 20 , 69:70 balance , phy attack with no weapon : 29 , with weapon : 128 , mag attack : 200 , fire passive : 1%

With fist :
Real damge was30
damge from the formula = B*2*phyBuff*phyBal-def
damge from the formula = (29*2*1.01*0.69) - 8 = 32.4

with weapon :
Real damge was 92
damge from the formula =(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
damge from the formula = (128 - 8*2 + 1) * 0.69 * 1.01 * 1.155 = 90.9

With weapon + phy attack buff 3% (+ 1% passive)
Real damge was 95
damge from the formula =(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
damge from the formula = (128 - 8*2 + 1) * 0.69 * 1.04 * 1.155 = 93.6

Imbue : 30~51(+100%) & mastery (lvl 13) ,
Real damge was : 302
damge from the formula =((BMag+ImbueDmg)*mastery)-def*2+1)*magBal*magBuff*1.155+phyDmg
damge from the formula = ((200+51)*1.13) - 8*2+1 ) * 0.70 * 1.155 + 92 = 309

Imbue + buff mag attack +4%
Real damge was : 310
damge from the formula =((BMag+ImbueDmg)*mastery)-def*2+1)*magBal*magBuff*1.155+phyDmg
damge from the formula = ((200+51)*1.13) - 8*2+1 ) * 0.70 * 1.04* 1.155 + 92 = 317.8

Skill : Anti devil missile 35(+150%) & pacheon mastery (lvl 14)
Real damge was : 219
=================================
3rd character : pure int lvl 26 , balance 56% phy (no weapon) , 57% phy (with weapon) 90% mag , phy attack with no weapon : 22 , with weapon : 181 , mag attack 332 & no fire passive ..

With fist :
Real damge was16
damge from the formula = B*2*phyBuff*phyBal-def
damge from the formula = (22*2*0.56) - 8 = 16.64

with weapon :
Real damge was 107
damge from the formula =(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
damge from the formula = (181 - 8*2 + 1) * 0.57 * 1.155 = 109.3

Imbue : 49~91(+100%) & mastery (lvl 26) ,
Real damge was : 542
damge from the formula =((BMag+ImbueDmg)*mastery)-def*2+1)*magBal*magBuff*1.155+phyDmg
damge from the formula = ((332+91)*1.26) - 8*2+1 ) * 0.90 * 1.155 + 107 = 645

Skill : Anti devil missile 22(+150%) & pacheon mastery (lvl 7)
Real damge was : 218
Real damge with imbue was : 995
====================================
And my highest character is a euro build so we can't use it to calculate ..

[NuclearSilo]

Yes I did tests before (but forget to post here) and the result was :

Wolf : & black hawk
Didn't try

Me : (normal shot)
I tried 3 characters with different balances to see :

1st : Pure STR lvl 32 , phy balance 94% , mag balance 32% , phy damge without weapon : 70 , and with weapon : 380 , mag attack 349 , fire passive : +3%

with fist :
Real damge was119
damge from the formula = B*2*phyBuff*phyBal-def
damge from the formula = (70*2*1.03*0.94) - 8 = 127.55

with weapon :
Real damge was 394
damge from the formula =(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
damge from the formula = (280 - 8*2 + 1) * 0.94 * 1.03 * 1.155 = 408

Imbue : 75~125(+100%) & fire mastery (lvl 31) ,
Real damge was : 609
damge from the formula =((BMag+ImbueDmg)*mastery)-def*2+1)*magBal*magBuff*1.155+phyDmg
damge from the formula = ((349+125)*1.30) - 8*2+1 ) * 0.32 * 1.155 + 394 = 616.2

Skill : Anti devil wave 64~86(+200%) & pacheon mastery (lvl 31)
Real damge was : 1221

Skill : Strong Bow 95(350%)
Real damge was : 2190

=============================================
2nd : Hybrid lvl 20 , 69:70 balance , phy attack with no weapon : 29 , with weapon : 128 , mag attack : 200 , fire passive : 1%

With fist :
Real damge was30
damge from the formula = B*2*phyBuff*phyBal-def
damge from the formula = (29*2*1.01*0.69) - 8 = 32.4

with weapon :
Real damge was 92
damge from the formula =(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
damge from the formula = (128 - 8*2 + 1) * 0.69 * 1.01 * 1.155 = 90.9

With weapon + phy attack buff 3% (+ 1% passive)
Real damge was 95
damge from the formula =(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
damge from the formula = (128 - 8*2 + 1) * 0.69 * 1.04 * 1.155 = 93.6

Imbue : 30~51(+100%) & mastery (lvl 13) ,
Real damge was : 302
damge from the formula =((BMag+ImbueDmg)*mastery)-def*2+1)*magBal*magBuff*1.155+phyDmg
damge from the formula = ((200+51)*1.13) - 8*2+1 ) * 0.70 * 1.155 + 92 = 309

Imbue + buff mag attack +4%
Real damge was : 310
damge from the formula =((BMag+ImbueDmg)*mastery)-def*2+1)*magBal*magBuff*1.155+phyDmg
damge from the formula = ((200+51)*1.13) - 8*2+1 ) * 0.70 * 1.04* 1.155 + 92 = 317.8

Skill : Anti devil missile 35(+150%) & pacheon mastery (lvl 14)
Real damge was : 219
=================================
3rd character : pure int lvl 26 , balance 56% phy (no weapon) , 57% phy (with weapon) 90% mag , phy attack with no weapon : 22 , with weapon : 181 , mag attack 332 & no fire passive ..

With fist :
Real damge was16
damge from the formula = B*2*phyBuff*phyBal-def
damge from the formula = (22*2*0.56) - 8 = 16.64

with weapon :
Real damge was 107
damge from the formula =(BPhy-def*2+1)*phyBal*phyBuff*1.155
damge from the formula = (181 - 8*2 + 1) * 0.57 * 1.155 = 109.3

Imbue : 49~91(+100%) & mastery (lvl 26) ,
Real damge was : 542
damge from the formula =((BMag+ImbueDmg)*mastery)-def*2+1)*magBal*magBuff*1.155+phyDmg
damge from the formula = ((332+91)*1.26) - 8*2+1 ) * 0.90 * 1.155 + 107 = 645

Skill : Anti devil missile 22(+150%) & pacheon mastery (lvl 7)
Real damge was : 218
Real damge with imbue was : 995
====================================
And my highest character is a euro build so we can't use it to calculate ..

Oops. A lot of difference for pure Str and pure Int. Hybrid is very close coz i tested with a build 73:73 balance.
The only thing i can guess is the 1.155 depends on the balance. I'll try to find it and formula for skill by this weekend.

Busy right now

[PileOfMush]

Thank you for continuing to work on this. If more data from more chars will help, I'll gladly donate my stats and time.

[Ja]

someones already done this as a form input/output kinda thing, but it was in a foriegn language.. i saw it 2 years back, i dont have the link anymore since i never figured out how to work it.. if you're still curious ask someone from the blackhand alliance xian, who has been playing around nov 2005 to mid-2006. we had it up in our private forum somewhere, around the time silkroadforums.com went down for a good while due to "technical difficulties".

[NuclearSilo]

Here is the new formula for FIST:

**dmg and balance are not accurate number so i'll calculate both min,max. For ex, a power of 70.99 will only show 70 on the screen**

Value taken from elnawawi's test.

formula : dmg = (B*1.89*phyBal-def)*phyBuff

Test:
Str: real = 119
min = (70*1.89*0.94 - 8)*1.03 = 119.8
max = (70*1.89*0.94 - 8)*1.03 = 123.0

Hyb: real = 30
min = (29*1.89*0.69 - 8)*1.01 = 30.1
max = (30*1.89*0.70 - 8)*1.03 = 32.0


Int: real = 16
min = (22*1.89*0.56 - 8)*1.00 = 15.2
max = (23*1.89*0.57 - 8)*1.00 = 16.7

My test:
Hyb: real = 141
min = (95*1.89*0.73 - 8)*1.13 = 139.0
max = (96*1.89*0.74 - 8)*1.13 = 142.6


WORK!

[elnawawi]

Here is the new formula for FIST:

**dmg and balance are not accurate number so i'll calculate both min,max. For ex, a power of 70.99 will only show 70 on the screen**

Value taken from elnawawi's test.

formula : dmg = (B*1.89*phyBal-def)*phyBuff

Test:
Str: real = 119
min = (70*1.89*0.94 - *1.03 = 119.8
max = (70*1.89*0.94 - *1.03 = 123.0

Hyb: real = 30
min = (29*1.89*0.69 - *1.01 = 30.1
max = (30*1.89*0.70 - *1.03 = 32.0


Int: real = 16
min = (22*1.89*0.56 - *1.00 = 15.2
max = (23*1.89*0.57 - *1.00 = 16.7

My test:
Hyb: real = 141
min = (95*1.89*0.73 - *1.13 = 139.0
max = (96*1.89*0.74 - *1.13 = 142.6


WORK!

wow .. good thinking .. I love your mind nuclear silo also love this correct factor by calculate min and max ...
So this formula should work for every build and balance ... hope that people try it and see if that will work with thier builds ...

And I wanna people to post thier tests with a lot of characters and balances to make us sure we have true damge formula not just formula for 3~4 characters ..

And just a thing i forget to do when calculated the damge of imbue .. i put def value as 8 not 12 .. forget that this 8 is for phy def not mag ..

Need to calculate it again but not now as I wanna sleeeeeeeeeeeeep . zzzzzzzzzzzz

[NuclearSilo]

Here is the new formula for FIST:

**dmg and balance are not accurate number so i'll calculate both min,max. For ex, a power of 70.99 will only show 70 on the screen**

Value taken from elnawawi's test.

formula : dmg = (B*1.89*phyBal-def)*phyBuff

Test:
Str: real = 119
min = (70*1.89*0.94 - *1.03 = 119.8
max = (70*1.89*0.94 - *1.03 = 123.0

Hyb: real = 30
min = (29*1.89*0.69 - *1.01 = 30.1
max = (30*1.89*0.70 - *1.03 = 32.0


Int: real = 16
min = (22*1.89*0.56 - *1.00 = 15.2
max = (23*1.89*0.57 - *1.00 = 16.7

My test:
Hyb: real = 141
min = (95*1.89*0.73 - *1.13 = 139.0
max = (96*1.89*0.74 - *1.13 = 142.6


WORK!

wow .. good thinking .. I love your mind nuclear silo also love this correct factor by calculate min and max ...
So this formula should work for every build and balance ... hope that people try it and see if that will work with thier builds ...

And I wanna people to post thier tests with a lot of characters and balances to make us sure we have true damge formula not just formula for 3~4 characters ..

And just a thing i forget to do when calculated the damge of imbue .. i put def value as 8 not 12 .. forget that this 8 is for phy def not mag ..

Need to calculate it again but not now as I wanna sleeeeeeeeeeeeep . zzzzzzzzzzzz

LOL look at the smilies in formula

[NuclearSilo]

Due to the defense of Mangyang has changed (because i reread the pk2). The formula above is wrong and i have to correct it soon.

[elnawawi]

Due to the defense of Mangyang has changed (because i reread the pk2). The formula above is wrong and i have to correct it soon.

You mean that mangyang phy and mag def aren't : 8 , 12 now ?!
what a waste of time .. lol

[NuclearSilo]

Due to the defense of Mangyang has changed (because i reread the pk2). The formula above is wrong and i have to correct it soon.

You mean that mangyang phy and mag def aren't : 8 , 12 now ?!
what a waste of time .. lol

7/10
A bit diff...

[tomiotar]

Test:

hyb: real = 220
min = (131*1.89*0.84-7)*1.08 = 217.0
max = (132*1.89*0.85-7)*1.08 = 221.5


I think this formula work for the fist ^^. I took off my wings and let me kill on pvp to take off honor buff so I have only the lvl8 fire passive.

[elnawawi]

Any one have new thing to add to this topic ?

I really wanna find correct formula or almost correct one to know what's the best balance for every weapon in chinese side ..

[BryaN]

Alot of ppl want to find the correct formula esspecially the ones that are building a emulator for silkroad. Hope this goes somewhere soon.

[doomas]

Imbue is freaking complicated
Example for int spear users:
Try using any wep skill WITHOUT the imbue. See that little pathetic phy dmg?
Good, now use Lion shout, also without the imbue. Which dmg is higher? Yes, you're right - Lion Shout does more dmg...
Now repeat that, only this time using the imbue. Which dmg is higher? yes, this time weapon skill + imbue does more dmg! You'll probably notice that weapon skill had more than 100% ( you know, ex. 100-150(150%)), and the lion shout had only 100%
Does that mean that those % multiply not only the phy dmg, but the mag dmg as well?
Oh, and also I think that character level has something to do with dmg too

[Jantje]

Imbue is freaking complicated
Example for int spear users:
Try using any wep skill WITHOUT the imbue. See that little pathetic phy dmg?
Good, now use Lion shout, also without the imbue. Which dmg is higher? Yes, you're right - Lion Shout does more dmg...
Now repeat that, only this time using the imbue. Which dmg is higher? yes, this time weapon skill + imbue does more dmg! You'll probably notice that weapon skill had more than 100% ( you know, ex. 100-150(150%)), and the lion shout had only 100%
Does that mean that those % multiply not only the phy dmg, but the mag dmg as well?
Oh, and also I think that character level has something to do with dmg too

Yes, this is why nukes are strong, 250% and up.

[doomas]

Yes, this is why nukes are strong, 250% and up.

That's not what I had in mind.
Oops, now that I read that sentence in bold, I see that I didn't make it clear enough What I meant was "does that % value on PHY attack skills have effect on mag dmg (imbue in this case)
So the formula has to be something like:
(Skill phy dmg + imbue)*Skill dmg % multiplier
and NOT
(Skill phy dmg*Skill dmg % multiplier)+Imbue (yes, I know there are balances, mastery lvls etc., it's just an example )