The big SA topic on official forums - an idea

[achmalach]

The reason i don't post this on the official forums is this:
I'm uncertain if the security on that forum is big enough.

So appearantly they are trying to get SA's back in the game again (like we had in the past)
Since last time there were some problems i hope they do a better job this time.

To support JoyMax in there thinking process and bot hunting (ahum) i descided to do a little thinking myself (has been a while but i know i'm capable of this)



SA Profile:

* experienced gamer (SRO)
* older then 20 years old
* bot free / scam free / gold buying free (they can easily check all this)
* SA's from different timezones
* English speaking, apprehension of other common languages

SA In Game status:
SA are normal players which play as they used to. They have no specific tag and they cannot be distincted in any way from another player.

SA Rights:

1. They can temporary ban players, right there on the spot. Ban-time is enlarged by each ban (1st time: 7 days, 2nd time: 14 days,...) untill a complete ban by Joymax. Bans are immediately shown in the screen of each player on the server (SA 1 banned xxxx. Reason: Rasicm, Ban-time: xx days)

2. SA's have no advantage in the game whatsoever. The're reward should be the possible positive posts on forums / better gameplay for themselves

SA Duties:

1. Monitor the server: bots / rasicm / blocking npc's etc.
2. User support: if users have a question they can send a message to:
$Support1 How do i finish the liquor quest

SA Technical Background:

Banning system:
The whole system is based upon the chat window, since this already has a library/engine that monitors bad words/checks user availibility etc. this can do the task and can be implimented easily.

The next thing that needs to be added is a SA field in the player database for ease of use and checking if the user entering the code has SA rights.
(When any player that is not listed in the player database tries to execute the SA command he gets an warning (automated) second time he tries he gets an autoban)

Some examples to clearify:

1. player A blocks NPC


SA gives in the folowing code in his chat window:
$SA ban playerA 7 blockingNPC (get_SA_rights action player_name days_of_ban reason_of_ban)
This is automatically folowed by an automated screenshot

2. player B seems to be botting

SA gives in the folowing code in his chat window:
$SA inq playerB Hello, how are you?

Player B gets a message like this:
[SA] hello how are you

SA has to make multiple efforts to communicate while the player keeps grinding, when there is no reply or there is a DC --> ban command and automated screenshot

With the screenshot system the SA's are covered against the players and they can be monitored if they do their work in a descent way.
At no point it is possible for bot users to see who on a server is an SA. Nor is it for any other player. Hence the SA can play all they want without being disturbed in any way.

Support system:
SA's can set there support availability on or off ($SA support On/Off)
This will be shown in the game to all users.

When a user has an inquiry for an SA:

$Support1 How do i finish the liquor quest?

The SA gets this message as a normal PM
When the SA clicks on that line he gives a response as a SA and not as a player.
So the player with the question will receive something like:
[SA1]Do them in this order 123654

When someone spams the SA or calls him names:
$SA ban playerA 7 spammingSA (with screenshot)

Personally i think there are no flaws in this system and the development time is small.
The rotten SA's will be kicked out quickly by the screenshot system, which is there to verify their actions and support their descisions.

Only by giving the SA's rights to effectivily do something they have a use. If not they are just another 'let's give them something so they shut up' attempt.

Feel free to post any comments. Also if anyone wants to put this in the offfical forum, be my guest.
Thanks for reading

[truez]

Gud one
Im wit u ...

[[SD]bizzle]

if unsure about security make and account just for posting, posting it here wont help much.

[DeathAngel1986]

The reason i don't post this on the official forums is this:
I'm uncertain if the security on that forum is big enough.

So appearantly they are trying to get SA's back in the game again (like we had in the past)
Since last time there were some problems i hope they do a better job this time.

To support JoyMax in there thinking process and bot hunting (ahum) i descided to do a little thinking myself (has been a while but i know i'm capable of this)



SA Profile:

* experienced gamer (SRO)
* older then 20 years old
* bot free / scam free / gold buying free (they can easily check all this)
* SA's from different timezones
* English speaking, apprehension of other common languages

SA In Game status:
SA are normal players which play as they used to. They have no specific tag and they cannot be distincted in any way from another player.

SA Rights:

1. They can temporary ban players, right there on the spot. Ban-time is enlarged by each ban (1st time: 7 days, 2nd time: 14 days,...) untill a complete ban by Joymax. Bans are immediately shown in the screen of each player on the server (SA 1 banned xxxx. Reason: Rasicm, Ban-time: xx days)

2. SA's have no advantage in the game whatsoever. The're reward should be the possible positive posts on forums / better gameplay for themselves

SA Duties:

1. Monitor the server: bots / rasicm / blocking npc's etc.
2. User support: if users have a question they can send a message to:
$Support1 How do i finish the liquor quest

SA Technical Background:

Banning system:
The whole system is based upon the chat window, since this already has a library/engine that monitors bad words/checks user availibility etc. this can do the task and can be implimented easily.

The next thing that needs to be added is a SA field in the player database for ease of use and checking if the user entering the code has SA rights.
(When any player that is not listed in the player database tries to execute the SA command he gets an warning (automated) second time he tries he gets an autoban)

Some examples to clearify:

1. player A blocks NPC


SA gives in the folowing code in his chat window:
$SA ban playerA 7 blockingNPC (get_SA_rights action player_name days_of_ban reason_of_ban)
This is automatically folowed by an automated screenshot

2. player B seems to be botting

SA gives in the folowing code in his chat window:
$SA inq playerB Hello, how are you?

Player B gets a message like this:
[SA] hello how are you

SA has to make multiple efforts to communicate while the player keeps grinding, when there is no reply or there is a DC --> ban command and automated screenshot

With the screenshot system the SA's are covered against the players and they can be monitored if they do their work in a descent way.
At no point it is possible for bot users to see who on a server is an SA. Nor is it for any other player. Hence the SA can play all they want without being disturbed in any way.

Support system:
SA's can set there support availability on or off ($SA support On/Off)
This will be shown in the game to all users.

When a user has an inquiry for an SA:

$Support1 How do i finish the liquor quest?

The SA gets this message as a normal PM
When the SA clicks on that line he gives a response as a SA and not as a player.
So the player with the question will receive something like:
[SA1]Do them in this order 123654

When someone spams the SA or calls him names:
$SA ban playerA 7 spammingSA (with screenshot)

Personally i think there are no flaws in this system and the development time is small.
The rotten SA's will be kicked out quickly by the screenshot system, which is there to verify their actions and support their descisions.

Only by giving the SA's rights to effectivily do something they have a use. If not they are just another 'let's give them something so they shut up' attempt.

Feel free to post any comments. Also if anyone wants to put this in the offfical forum, be my guest.
Thanks for reading

isn't this what admins should do? why do we need admins for then?

[Orilana]

The only problem with it is that it is open to abuse. Will all of the best will in the world, people are human and once in a position of power, some tend to abuse it.

A way around it could be, when they ban someone for spoken language, it could send a screen to Joymax to prove what they were saying at the time. I know some other games automatically send the text ingame 60 seconds before and after the ban.

Also, it could just be a mute rather than a ban. I have images of a couple of SA's banning everyone off the server to get their friends space to log in.
Once muted, it could send the text report automatically to Joymax to let them decide on a form of punishment. I.e, a ban.

The last thing, to also avoid abuse of the system, or to proevent hacked SA's going around muting/banning everyone on the server for fun, there could be a limit per hour of the amount of mutes/bans you can give out.

SA's should be watched over by Joymax to prevent abusing their position.

[achmalach]

The only problem with it is that it is open to abuse. Will all of the best will in the world, people are human and once in a position of power, some tend to abuse it.

A way around it could be, when they ban someone for spoken language, it could send a screen to Joymax to prove what they were saying at the time. I know some other games automatically send the text ingame 60 seconds before and after the ban.

Also, it could just be a mute rather than a ban. I have images of a couple of SA's banning everyone off the server to get their friends space to log in.
Once muted, it could send the text report automatically to Joymax to let them decide on a form of punishment. I.e, a ban.

The last thing, to also avoid abuse of the system, or to proevent hacked SA's going around muting/banning everyone on the server for fun, there could be a limit per hour of the amount of mutes/bans you can give out.

SA's should be watched over by Joymax to prevent abusing their position.

The screenshot method is implimented in this system.
When a ban action is done by an SA an screenshot is automatically taken

[shadowman20875]

possible flaws:
power abuse
no support from Joymax after an "unfair banning"
(e.g. someone nukes a giant and soul spears it
then runs to the bathroom
SA sees a char hitting w/o imbues on the giant and contacts him
he's in the bathroom
7 DAYS w/o SRO
file a complaint to JM, they either ignore it, or don't believe u or dont care at all--->/wrist cutting/suicide/plays WoW )

[achmalach]

isn't this what admins should do? why do we need admins for then?

At this moment we can clearly say the admins have no time for this or clearly don't do it.
I suspect they have other things at their hands like development, CCF, charge backs, forum moderation, server crashes, data backups etc.

So if they impliment SA's i think this is a good way 2 do it

[ElMejorGlavie]

Nice idea thumbs up.

[Heaven_King]

I don't know...
maybe to have active Gm's in there would be enough....
Those guys named SA could abuse their power like someone said, it's a fragil question.

[Crumpets]

Well written.

I did not read your introduction I just read everythign after .. genuinely thought this was official. I like the idea of a SA being able to humiliate a botter server wide.

[achmalach]

possible flaws:
power abuse
no support from Joymax after an "unfair banning" (e.g. someone nukes a giant and soul spears it and then runs to the bathroom, SA sees a char hitting w/o imbues on the giant and contacts him, he's in the bathroom, 7 DAYS w/o SRO, file a complaint to JM, they either ignore it, or don't believe u or dont care at all)

Not true
Since the system is based upon continious question asking to a person that is executing skills there is no problem here

[BlackFox]

Not great idea......thumbs down P.s some of this blabla idea.

[shadowman20875]

possible flaws:
power abuse
no support from Joymax after an "unfair banning" (e.g. someone nukes a giant and soul spears it and then runs to the bathroom, SA sees a char hitting w/o imbues on the giant and contacts him, he's in the bathroom, 7 DAYS w/o SRO, file a complaint to JM, they either ignore it, or don't believe u or dont care at all)

Not true
Since the system is based upon continious question asking to a person that is executing skills there is no problem here

the guy has diahearra and dont answer for 5 min yet his guy still hits his giant and autopots, idk i think some SA's will ban and JM will ignore all complaints/appeals like they always do

keep in mind, not all SA's will think exactly like you do

[Sharp324]

possible flaws:
power abuse
no support from Joymax after an "unfair banning" (e.g. someone nukes a giant and soul spears it and then runs to the bathroom, SA sees a char hitting w/o imbues on the giant and contacts him, he's in the bathroom, 7 DAYS w/o SRO, file a complaint to JM, they either ignore it, or don't believe u or dont care at all)

Not true
Since the system is based upon continious question asking to a person that is executing skills there is no problem here

the guy has diahearra and dont answer for 5 min yet his guy still hits his giant and autopots, idk i think some SA's will ban and JM will ignore all complaints/appeals like they always do

keep in mind, not all SA's will think exactly like you do

You have a point, hell when your fighting something and say the phone rings or someone comes to the door i get up and deal with and leave the game. That would suck be gone for 5 minutes and be banned. There will be a abuse of power at some point and the chances of JM not giving a damn is high

[achmalach]

possible flaws:
power abuse
no support from Joymax after an "unfair banning" (e.g. someone nukes a giant and soul spears it and then runs to the bathroom, SA sees a char hitting w/o imbues on the giant and contacts him, he's in the bathroom, 7 DAYS w/o SRO, file a complaint to JM, they either ignore it, or don't believe u or dont care at all)

Not true
Since the system is based upon continious question asking to a person that is executing skills there is no problem here

the guy has diahearra and dont answer for 5 min yet his guy still hits his giant and autopots, idk i think some SA's will ban and JM will ignore all complaints/appeals like they always do

keep in mind, not all SA's will think exactly like you do

ok on this one i have to agree.
There are several possible solutions to this in the same spirit:

1. player gets banned, 7 days later he can play again. unlucky but at least something is done (bad idea imho but better then nothing)

2. SA uses his ban command the assumed diareeha bot or not
Now the second time the ban command is executed on a player the lowest ban becomes reality. You can also at a time span on that: only once a day it is possible to 'tag' a player as an SA

Again you can now say: what about he has diareha twice exactly at that moment (very small chances on that)... well we can continue this way...

It's not about the fact the bot problem cannot be solved by GM's or Joymax, this thread is more bout the fact that if they impliment SA's they have to have power and this power can be accomplished with a minimum of development effort and with a, imho , very good result

[[SD]Master_Wong]

sounds interesting but most of the old sa's were bots

and with this chances are your gona have really immature people pissing about with this power

[TwelveEleven]

As stated above this system has a few flaws, but I think a responsible SA would pm you once, then pm you again 5 minutes later, perhaps even 10 to ask for an explanation..

And for power abuse, I thikn SA's shouldn't be able to do an instant ban, but one that must be checked by Joymax or a full power GM (Or a SSA (SSA = Super Silk Assistant) Someone who has been a SA for a long time and is trusted).

And last but not least: Why the age of 20? Strange age if you ask me.

18+ would be just fine if you ask me..

[achmalach]

sounds interesting but most of the old sa's were bots

and with this chances are your gona have really immature people pissing about with this power

The selection procedure on potential SA's is simple enough though:

1. registered since
2. character(s) level
3. age
4. database check on abnormalities: like sets of 16+ hours of exp. gain. Sudden addition of huge amounts of money buy know bots/gold buyers.
You can easily check a characters life cycle and that way easily conclude if this person could have done anything illegal.
This only has to be done for candidate SA's

[MonstaH]

20? Why 20 lol?

In most countries you're "grown up" at either 18 or 21 (<= haha), so why 20? But well, the rest sounds pretty good, at least a person caring for solutions.

[MrJoey]

I don't trust JoyMax enough to believe they could give the right person the power to ban, even if temporary.

[achmalach]

As stated above this system has a few flaws, but I think a responsible SA would pm you once, then pm you again 5 minutes later, perhaps even 10 to ask for an explanation..

And for power abuse, I thikn SA's shouldn't be able to do an instant ban, but one that must be checked by Joymax or a full power GM (Or a SSA (SSA = Super Silk Assistant) Someone who has been a SA for a long time and is trusted).

And last but not least: Why the age of 20? Strange age if you ask me.

18+ would be just fine if you ask me..

Well this is why the old SA system went wrong. An SA without any powers is just someone who will be eaten alive and laughted at continiously --> bye bye SA's

If you even place the temp ban possibility at JoyMax side again then nothing will happen, again. They cannot (don't have time) to even ban 'known by everyone' botters atm

I do agree that definite bans should stay at JoyMax side. But i think if you as a botter have this experience:
banned for 3 days
play a week
banned for a week
play a week
banned for 2 weeks
play a week
banned for a month
play a week
banned for 3 months
play a week
banned till JM descides what to do

Then you would have quited botting after step 3
Also for each ban there would be 2 screenshots available meaning 12 screenshots on which you did not reply or Dc'ed.

About the age of 20:
This is a discussion that can go on till infinity, 18+ ok to. As long as you deal with mature persons who are down to earth.

I can give you immediately 10 people on Athens who would do a terrific job without abusing anything.
I'm sure everyone knows people like that on other servers 2

[achmalach]

I don't trust JoyMax enough to believe they could give the right person the power to ban, even if temporary.

i can follow you on this Mr Joey

But as always:
It's better to help a proposal of your boss by feeding it with good ideas and trying to make the best out of it if he is going to execute it anyways.

BTW would you sign up for SA if you have the rights described here?

[yamataka]

SA should never be allowed to ban ... that makes the whole idea open to power abuse.

And detecting bots by talking to them? are you serious? What if the person speaks another language? What if they are someone young enough to be told by their parents that they are not to talk to strangers even on a game? What if they are autistic and enjoying the repetitive actions of grinding and lack social skills? What if you drop your mouse on the floor and kick it under your pc and are crawling on the floor and trying to get it back while the SA is talking to you? The what ifs go on and on ...

Why wouldn't an bot detection program work better?

And how are you able to tell if someone is 20 online? Give them a test of some sort? or just believe them when they say they are 20?

[achmalach]

SA should never be allowed to ban ... that makes the whole idea open to power abuse.

And detecting bots by talking to them? are you serious? What if the person speaks another language? What if they are someone young enough to be told by their parents that they are not to talk to strangers even on a game? What if they are autistic and enjoying the repetitive actions of grinding and lack social skills? What if you drop your mouse on the floor and kick it under your pc and are crawling on the floor and trying to get it back while the SA is talking to you? The what ifs go on and on ...

Why wouldn't an bot detection program work better?

And how are you able to tell if someone is 20 online? Give them a test of some sort? or just believe them when they say they are 20?

So if they gonna impliment SA's they are just there to show off JoyMax is doing nothing expect pretending doing something?

The 'what if's' are all easily solved a little bit down in this topic (multiple tags before temporary ban). Also this is the current way it is done by JoyMax itself so these 'what ifs' are now already a problem.
I don't say this is the solution to the problems, i only try to say that this method can be a very good way to impliment SA's if they gonna do it.


Again: if you don't give SA's powers then they are just like the protectors... useless

[__Raiden__]

4. database check on abnormalities: like sets of 16+ hours of exp. gain. Sudden addition of huge amounts of money buy know bots/gold buyers.

if he knows bots and gold buyers then why dont they just ban them?.... lol.... that kinda just says joymax should not even watch the game

[Millenium]

Nobody mentioned anywhere that JM wants SAs back again. And in fact SA will never be brought back.

[myralynn]

I suggested something like this before but this is much better thought out!
Yes, there could be abuses but GM's should check that and the auto screen shot would cover a lot... You might even do this based on player approval... If everyone knows that player XYXY is a scammer botter and generally surly player with a bad attitude and mouth ... maybe they could vote him out...? Real players will not mind being "policed" if they are treated fairly AND if they have some say in the matter. And as far as leaving your char during a fight? It would have to really be an emergency for me to leave during a fight but I suppose it COULD happen.. The "tell" though is seeing char kill that giant and then move on to another and another without a response to your greeting. and that should be on screen shots and required.
Also, I think you should set 1st offenses pretty low ... maybe 24 hours. The problem now is that player thinks no one is going to do anything and the only way to compete IS to bot and buy gold and silk! If they KNEW something was being done I bet most of the problem would just go away. Which is what I LOVE about the public statement of being banned. If you saw actual banning notices for doing what you were doing popping on the screen every once in a while .. you would think twice.
Somehow these game developers don't realize that a server must be MANAGED as well as CREATED! It does no good to add servers that are just as bad as the others. This game is becoming just bots and Noobs that don't know that yet. I suppose to SRO that does not matter... But it does to us.
NOW ... HOW do we get them to do this????

[shadowman20875]

after pondering it through lunch (better than thinking about work ) i think if the kinks are worked out, and a VERY nice support system is set up it could work

notice the emphasis on support system cause there are gonna be probs

[borat2]

nice indeed
but i rather have them a kick function for less abuse
kick, duarion (lets say max 1 or 2 hours) and reason
each kick is recorded and given to GM, they decide for ban or not
kicktime is better because that way SA will get less chance to abuse their powers
ban gives more work for Joymax when it was being abused