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http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/ ... 1720071227

What do you guys and girls think of this? What do you think it means for regional security and stability? Do you think this will make Musharref reconsider his recent move to give up the role as commander of the military and his subsequent easing off of his recent crackdown? Is Pakistan a greater "threat" to the US and European interests and security than Iran? Just want to see what everyone thinks.

Sindh is going to be in absolute chaos.

The whole country will be in chaos for a great deal of time i recon, a mere fact that most likely will make Musharref reconsider his little vacation.

He will put the country in state of emergency in no-time again, which is a shame. She had good, and above all democratic value's which seems to become a rare find in those regions. And now, has become even more rare.

Whether or not Pakistan will be a threat, depends on Musharraf's move. Obviously the elections in they're current form can't continue. Should he leap to power again, the US might not be pleased.

why can't the middle east just live peacefully like the rest of the world

Iran and Pakistan are only threats because we're making them threats. IMO there's really nothing for us to get involved in.

Reise wrote:Iran and Pakistan are only threats because we're making them threats. IMO there's really nothing for us to get involved in.

Something i agree on in most cases, tho not iran's. They made themselve a threat by keeping they're nuclear programme hidden.

good thread btw.

Priam wrote:

Reise wrote:Iran and Pakistan are only threats because we're making them threats. IMO there's really nothing for us to get involved in.

Something i agree on in most cases, tho not iran's. They made themselve a threat by keeping they're nuclear programme hidden.

good thread btw.

I think its the right of every nation to have secrets...If they developed nuclear weapons they wouldn't use them on the US the only threat would be that they might sell to terrorist organizations which are the real problem in this situation.

OT: i really don't know enough about the region to predict what kind of outcome this will have on the world at large, oh well, only the good die young...

XemnasXD wrote:

Priam wrote:

Reise wrote:Iran and Pakistan are only threats because we're making them threats. IMO there's really nothing for us to get involved in.

Something i agree on in most cases, tho not iran's. They made themselve a threat by keeping they're nuclear programme hidden.

good thread btw.

I think its the right of every nation to have secrets...If they developed nuclear weapons they wouldn't use them on the US the only threat would be that they might sell to terrorist organizations which are the real problem in this situation.

OT: i really don't know enough about the region to predict what kind of outcome this will have on the world at large, oh well, only the good die young...

Sure, national treasures are a given. tho when things have a HUGE international reach, like the possibility's of nuclear weaponry, that needs to go public.

Priam wrote:

XemnasXD wrote:

Priam wrote:

Reise wrote:Iran and Pakistan are only threats because we're making them threats. IMO there's really nothing for us to get involved in.

Something i agree on in most cases, tho not iran's. They made themselve a threat by keeping they're nuclear programme hidden.

good thread btw.

I think its the right of every nation to have secrets...If they developed nuclear weapons they wouldn't use them on the US the only threat would be that they might sell to terrorist organizations which are the real problem in this situation.

OT: i really don't know enough about the region to predict what kind of outcome this will have on the world at large, oh well, only the good die young...

Sure, national treasures are a given. tho when things have a HUGE international reach, like the possibility's of nuclear weaponry, that needs to go public.

its the pot calling the kettle black...the US has done tons of covert operations that have changed the world and only recently have been brought to light and still no ones done anything about it. Secrets, lies, cover-ups, and deals that affect the world are made everyday without our knowledge if it was Sweden developing a nuclear program they'd probably get some help but since its Iran they must be planning something evil.

Regardless of how you feel about the Iranian Gov't (and most people don't know much, only what the biased fear inducing media tells them) if you truly want peace and a stable world respect is the best way to start. Respect a nations right to private business, respect a nations right to withhold information, respect a peoples right not to be judged by the western world. If you expect nations like Iran to tell-all you should expect bigger stronger nations like the US to tell-all and we both know the US will never do that but they'll repeatedly tell other nations they have to....somethings wrong with that picture, very very wrong.

srry for getting off-topic....

XemnasXD wrote:

Priam wrote:

XemnasXD wrote:

Priam wrote:

Reise wrote:Iran and Pakistan are only threats because we're making them threats. IMO there's really nothing for us to get involved in.

Something i agree on in most cases, tho not iran's. They made themselve a threat by keeping they're nuclear programme hidden.

good thread btw.

I think its the right of every nation to have secrets...If they developed nuclear weapons they wouldn't use them on the US the only threat would be that they might sell to terrorist organizations which are the real problem in this situation.

OT: i really don't know enough about the region to predict what kind of outcome this will have on the world at large, oh well, only the good die young...

Sure, national treasures are a given. tho when things have a HUGE international reach, like the possibility's of nuclear weaponry, that needs to go public.

its the pot calling the kettle black...the US has done tons of covert operations that have changed the world and only recently have been brought to light and still no ones done anything about it. Secrets, lies, cover-ups, and deals that affect the world are made everyday without our knowledge if it was Sweden developing a nuclear program they'd probably get some help but since its Iran they must be planning something evil.

Regardless of how you feel about the Iranian Gov't (and most people don't know much, only what the biased fear inducing media tells them) if you truly want peace and a stable world respect is the best way to start. Respect a nations right to private business, respect a nations right to withhold information, respect a peoples right not to be judged by the western world. If you expect nations like Iran to tell-all you should expect bigger stronger nations like the US to tell-all and we both know the US will never do that but they'll repeatedly tell other nations they have to....somethings wrong with that picture, very very wrong.

srry for getting off-topic....

i'd still have US as a superpower than russia or china as one

..the US has done tons of covert operations that have changed the world and only recently have been brought to light and still no ones done anything about it.

It's because, surprise surprise, the US probably isn't the only nation to have done such things. Persecuting us for them would only bring other people's shady actions to light as well.

Reise wrote:

..the US has done tons of covert operations that have changed the world and only recently have been brought to light and still no ones done anything about it.

It's because, surprise surprise, the US probably isn't the only nation to have done such things. Persecuting us for them would only bring other people's shady actions to light as well.

furthering the strong ties between the western nations built on secrets and underhanded deeds while disassociating the rest of the world who remain outside that age old loop leaving them open to criticism and reprimanding from UN/US if they consider them a threat to their established order. Im getting borderline conspiracy theorist here but what you said doesn't change the fact that the Iran Nuclear situation is based on hypocrisy and is completely BS.

Tho it's a fact Iran kept they're plans in the dark for a long, long time, not willing to show them to anyone. We can't ignore things like that. The world is getting a more damgerous place every day. Imo there's one difference between doing a covert opp, and building a nuclear plant: One of them goes un-noticed.

Priam wrote:Tho it's a fact Iran kept they're plans in the dark for a long, long time, not willing to show them to anyone. We can't ignore things like that. The world is getting a more damgerous place every day. Imo there's one difference between doing a covert opp, and building a nuclear plant: One of them goes un-noticed.

but the effects of building a nuclear plant and initiating a coup d'etat can both have drastic consequence imo the coup d'etat out weights the power plant. The world is just as dangerous as it was during any other time in fact its probably a bit safer than it was in some eras. Still, jumping at shadows won't help the situation and will probably only make the state of the world worse in the long run....or have you forgotten Saddam's "WMDs" that no one found already....

WOWSIE this topic is highly intelligent Wow good job guys

on my other account now just to make it seem like I'm a different person

I lol'd when Bush talked about "violent extremists trying to undermine the democracy of Pakistan" when addressing Bhutto's death. What does he think Musharraf is, prime minister or something?

[AoW]ForLife wrote:on my other account now just to make it seem like I'm a different person

I lol'd when Bush talked about "violent extremists trying to undermine the democracy of Pakistan" when addressing Bhutto's death. What does he think Musharraf is, prime minister or something?

+1 musharrafs a dictator who just cozied up to the US so he could stay in power

Jstar1 wrote:

[AoW]ForLife wrote:on my other account now just to make it seem like I'm a different person

I lol'd when Bush talked about "violent extremists trying to undermine the democracy of Pakistan" when addressing Bhutto's death. What does he think Musharraf is, prime minister or something?

+1 musharrafs a dictator who just cozied up to the US so he could stay in power

Nothing wrong with dictators imo..Some countries shouldn't have democracies.

redneck wrote:

Jstar1 wrote:

[AoW]ForLife wrote:on my other account now just to make it seem like I'm a different person

I lol'd when Bush talked about "violent extremists trying to undermine the democracy of Pakistan" when addressing Bhutto's death. What does he think Musharraf is, prime minister or something?

+1 musharrafs a dictator who just cozied up to the US so he could stay in power

Nothing wrong with dictators imo..Some countries shouldn't have democracies.

all people should have the right to say how there lives will be run...countries are labels and boundaries but people are the same wherever you go in the world...

Tho i do not agree on America's approach in several world-wide matters, i still don't think it's right to have a country create they're own nuclear plans for reasons unknown to anyone other than themselves.

This too me, is threathening, ofc the whole Iran thing was one giant debacle, just like Saddam was. But atleast we now know what they're doing up there.

This removed the "What if?" from the situation.

then i guess my problem is the fact that no one questions anything when the US or the UK does something without telling anyone....its an unfair standard with its base in complete misunderstanding. If your going to hold Iran to that kind of standard hold every other country in the world to it, no exceptions and if your not going to hold everyone to it don't hold anyone to it. Thats an easy way to keep "debacles" from happening...

XemnasXD wrote:then i guess my problem is the fact that no one questions anything when the US or the UK does something without telling anyone....its an unfair standard with its base in complete misunderstanding. If your going to hold Iran to that kind of standard hold every other country in the world to it, no exceptions and if your not going to hold everyone to it don't hold anyone to it. Thats an easy way to keep "debacles" from happening...

I'm totally with you on that.

you can only treat countries equally if they're equal, which thankfully isn't the case.

we need superpowers to hold sway over most of the world. it's that kinda hierarchy that's kept the world stabilized for the most part. western supremacy dominates the playing field today, but in a few hundred years, that'll most likely change.

redneck wrote:

Jstar1 wrote:

[AoW]ForLife wrote:on my other account now just to make it seem like I'm a different person

I lol'd when Bush talked about "violent extremists trying to undermine the democracy of Pakistan" when addressing Bhutto's death. What does he think Musharraf is, prime minister or something?

+1 musharrafs a dictator who just cozied up to the US so he could stay in power

Nothing wrong with dictators imo..Some countries shouldn't have democracies.

Unfortunately he's right. In some countries, the people are so used to a rule, or their sense of right or wrong is off, that if they get a democracy, they might possibly be worse off than they already are. TBH, just look at America, we have a democracy, and it isn't all that good imo. A lot of politicians are crooks, and we have a person who isn't fit to lick the dirt off my shoes in the White House. I'm hoping for something good to happen in next election, but I'm not counting on it.

TOloseGT wrote:you can only treat countries equally if they're equal, which thankfully isn't the case.

we need superpowers to hold sway over most of the world. it's that kinda hierarchy that's kept the world stabilized for the most part. western supremacy dominates the playing field today, but in a few hundred years, that'll most likely change.

You can't be serious.....Superpowers are the cause of instability. The entire Cold War was just an Argument between 2 super powers with no direct confrontation that wrought destruction all over eastern Europe and reduced the US to a state of witch hunting. Im not saying if there were no superpowers there would be peace but i'd rather have small fighting between small groups of people that doesn't affect anyone but themselves than Large fighting amongst demi-god nations that could literally wipe out all life on earth if they so choose.

That sway your talking about is simply oppression that the western nations have been dishing out for the past 300 years and and now were really starting to see the affects of it. The worlds been going in a downward spiral slavery, poverty, AIDs, terrorism, new bio-weapons, new chem-weapons, new arms races, new wars, new conflicts, more destruction and if you can't trace the source of these problems back to the Western Superpowers you can definetly find the solution within their power that they are refusing to use.

Your stability is payed for by bombs being drops over seas on hospitals and schools, by some new war thats been started over oil...the list goes on this "stability" you speak of only seems to exist in the nations of the Superpowers while the rest of the world, the larger part mind you suffers for it.

/end rant

Canada has diesel-electric submarines bought second hand from the UK; and a retrofitted version of the tanks the germans used in WWII - bitcheeesssssesssss

5 main countries holding the world up is better than a hundred little ones.

doomsday scenarios are fairy tales woven into our psyche from the get go. they're fear tactics to keep us all in check. that's all. the world is so interconnected, helped along immensely by superpowers, that the countries that matter will not even think about starting another large scale war. it's those little ones that you have to worry about. it's like a five year old shooting off a gun, except instead of it being an accident, the baby knows fully well what he's doing.

the fact that the Cold War was just that, a cold war, speaks to the effectiveness of superpowers. they keep themselves in check. trivializing it does not help either. sure, it may have been an argument, but there were so many other factors in it as well.

like i said, in a few hundred years, the baton will have swapped hands. i'm not saying this is the best way, but it is effective.

Superpowers are helped by Superpowers. Everything else is an expendable tool used when they play their games. Believe that the moments large scale war becomes economically profitable for enough groups within those Superpowers WWIII will start again. And just like WWI and WWII the rest of the world will be forever changed by something they had nothing to do with in the first place. Doomsday scenarios aren't fairy tales anyone who lived in immediate Post WWII Europe will tell you that.

The Cold War shows how superpowers dictate and control the world around them without being directly harmed and therefore not directly affected by their actions. Look up the events that took place during the cold war millions of lives were lost BUT since the US and the Soviets didn't directly duke it its a victory for everyone. Its like a fight between two chicks. The popular kind you know what im talking about, the ones that use the friends they share to get back at one another by spreading lies and such. They remain safe while their pawns get used and abused.

Your looking at the world with western eyes seeing it as something that needs to be tamed in order to bring balance. An uncivilized powder keg thats ready to blow if it weren't for someone to keep everyone in check and under foot because if those little countries got WMD they might put themselves up their with the big boys and start making some crazy demands like better treatment or something. @_@ what a world that will be huh everyone on equal footing having to think about who they're pushing around cause they might push back....people might actually start talking about problems to avoid such conflicts instead of jumping into a country, removing its leaders and trying to force a new gov't on the people......a strange world with such people in it.....

u'r right, u'r absolutely right.

but the system works as it is. power changes every couple of hundred years, and every succession of power has its backwater region.

sadly, if those little countries got WMDs, they might go on a power trip and end up blowing a city up, without taking into account the consequences of their actions beforehand.

XemnasXD wrote:what a world that will be huh everyone on equal footing having to think about who they're pushing around cause they might push back....people might actually start talking about problems to avoid such conflicts

a perfect world, surely, with non-human inhabitants. a more accurate description would be "everyone on equal footing having to think about who they're pushing around cause they might push back...then they will push back harder, and the whole thing will escalate"

TOloseGT wrote:

XemnasXD wrote:what a world that will be huh everyone on equal footing having to think about who they're pushing around cause they might push back....people might actually start talking about problems to avoid such conflicts

a perfect world, surely, with non-human inhabitants. a more accurate description would be "everyone on equal footing having to think about who they're pushing around cause they might push back...then they will push back harder, and the whole thing will escalate"

Live in peace or die. If humans can't learn to treat each other equal with respect then the end result will be annihilation anyway. Peace is the solution the alternative is destruction so if equality and respect doesn't work what other choice is there...