Gays and Muslims

[Puma60]

Before I say anything, I just wanna say this isn't having a dig at Muslims. I respect what they believe in, but I want to question their view on gays, so please don't flame, and if I come across as attacking the Muslim race (I don't think I am but I know a lot of people feel passionate about their religion), I really don't mean to.

I was talking to a guild member {on sro obviously) earlier today, hes from Egypt and a Muslim. We were just chatting, when he called me gay as a joke. I asked him whats wrong with being gay? In which he replied "are you crazy? Becuase the religion and man be man no man be gay". I asked him again, whats wrong with being gay, a man doesn't choose to be gay, its the way he is born. Anyway he didn't really give me a proper answer, just asking me how I would feel if my Dad was gay, and shit like this. He got so pissed off with me asking these questions, he ended up logging off. I asked someone else (another Muslim from Egypt) what would happen to a Muslim if people found out he was gay?

Me: What happens to a Muslim if he was born gay?
Him: Got killed
Me: Killed? Police will kill him?
Him: Yes or other Muslims

It reminds me of the 1960's when Blacks were judged as inferior compared to other races, and I think some Muslims need to stop being so narrow minded, open their eyes and look at the broader picture.

It puts me in a weird situation because most of my guild are from Egypt and are Muslims, and now I feel like ive insulted them by questioning their religion.

I know asking two Muslims for their opinions is not exactly a representative sample of the Muslim race, but I know there are other Muslims here and thats why im writing this.

[Barotix]

*Hot Topics:
This one.
Ramadan.
Racism one.
Fat one.

[XxDeeDeeDeexX]

Just laugh at them, their turban is in the way of their sight. If they don't respect you, why respect them.

[TheSpy]

*Hot Topics:
This one.
Ramadan.
Racism one.
Fat one.

Fat racist Muslim gays having Ramadan?

Just kidding, it isn't meant to be offensive. :p

[inky]

I've met some Muslims before who were a bit more tolerant of homosexuality; some of them said they wouldn't care if someone was gay and believe that as long as a person is good, they'll be accepted by "God." Then there are some who have that "live and let live" mentality but would rather have someone be straight instead of gay. It really depends on the person's personal beliefs and how ingrained his/her religion is to their daily lives. You can't always blame a person for being prejudiced since in almost every society, homosexuals are scrutinized in some way and that's the way most people are taught - tolerance of things is usually something we all learn later on.

I grew up in a small town where the majority of the people are Christians, which meant that negative views on gay people were existent. I admit that I was slightly homophobic (although I never expressed it) when I was younger but as I grew older and moved to a different setting, I started to deviate from my religion and realized that some of the people in my life, such as family and friends, are indeed gay, my views began to shift.

@DeeDeeDee:

Spoiler!

[Strwarrior]

that is a lie. they dont kill him.. lol. dont believe any thing these people say, there is some muslims that are just muslims by name, they dont have faith or do what real muslims do.. i dont say ur friend is like that, but anyways.. that is a lie

[inky]

that is a lie. they dont kill him.. lol. dont believe any thing these people say, there is some muslims that are just muslims by name, they dont have faith or do what real muslims do.. i dont say ur friend is like that, but anyways.. that is a lie

Read your "holy book" before you speak. Not that I'd prefer Muslims to be violent homophobes but just to let you know that Islam or any other major religion does promote homophobia. Deviating from that is, of course, a good thing but I see it nothing more than a huge PR move to promote religion and shape it in a way that people can buy.

[CrimsonNuker]

*Hot Topics:
This one.
Ramadan.
Racism one.
Fat one.

Oh shi-

Its a trend

OT:

AFAIK Muslims don't tolerate homosexuality, as like Christians.

[Strwarrior]

that is a lie. they dont kill him.. lol. dont believe any thing these people say, there is some muslims that are just muslims by name, they dont have faith or do what real muslims do.. i dont say ur friend is like that, but anyways.. that is a lie

Read your "holy book" before you speak. Not that I'd prefer Muslims to be violent homophobes but just to let you know that Islam or any other major religion does promote homophobia. Deviating from that is, of course, a good thing but I see it nothing more than a huge PR move to promote religion and shape it in a way that people can buy.

u shud explanzz morz.. i cant understand anything.. even google translator didnt understand.. lol >_<


anyways.. Killing Gays in Muslim Race = Lie, we dont do it, and never done it.

[Puma60]

that is a lie. they dont kill him.. lol. dont believe any thing these people say, there is some muslims that are just muslims by name, they dont have faith or do what real muslims do.. i dont say ur friend is like that, but anyways.. that is a lie

Read your "holy book" before you speak. Not that I'd prefer Muslims to be violent homophobes but just to let you know that Islam or any other major religion does promote homophobia. Deviating from that is, of course, a good thing but I see it nothing more than a huge PR move to promote religion and shape it in a way that people can buy.

u shud explanzz morz.. i cant understand anything.. even google translator didnt understand.. lol >_<


anyways.. Killing Gays in Muslim Race = Lie, we dont do it, and never done it.

So maybe he was lieing, but gays are excluded from society in Muslim countries, right?

[Strwarrior]

Read your "holy book" before you speak. Not that I'd prefer Muslims to be violent homophobes but just to let you know that Islam or any other major religion does promote homophobia. Deviating from that is, of course, a good thing but I see it nothing more than a huge PR move to promote religion and shape it in a way that people can buy.

u shud explanzz morz.. i cant understand anything.. even google translator didnt understand.. lol >_<


anyways.. Killing Gays in Muslim Race = Lie, we dont do it, and never done it.

So maybe he was lieing, but gays are excluded from society in Muslim countries, right?

They are like any another muslim, they can do what another muslims does, everywhere they are same, but yeah.. being a gay means u cant do "somethings" u understand me , and yea he was lieing, or kidding maybe, but let me tell u, some of Egyptians, doesnt pray nor have faith... they are "Muslims" by name only.. but they dont do what real muslims does.

~Edit: they dont say in public they are gays.. they are rare i think :S, at least here.

[Doppleganger]

Damn it i have a final right now! Don't get this topic locked!! I want to reply to this seriously when i get back! LOL

[Ash]

I never heard of anyone getting killed coz he was gay
but as nuker said

AFAIK Muslims don't tolerate homosexuality, as like Christians.

[wootpops]

most muslims ive talked to have been open to answering my questions about their religion i think they find it cool that im interested. i don't think they would get killed, just shunned by the people who know.

[inky]

Organized groups whose mission is basically kill gay people have existed in Muslim-dominated countries for a long time, as they have in places ruled by Christian fanatics like the Lord's Resistance Army.

[XemnasXD]

as someone who follows gay international news Egypt is not the most welcoming country to homosexuals. Over the past year their has been several mass arrest with the charge basically boiling down to homosexuality. In Iraq they are simply killing the gays.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8204853.stm

its been that way for awhile and i've heard of the same type of violence in egypt before. The people behind these attacks are most likely muslim considering the region so i'd say that OPs friend wasn't far off with his statements.

[SM-Count]

a man doesn't choose to be gay, its the way he is born

You have absolutely no proof for this statement.

[XemnasXD]

a man doesn't choose to be gay, its the way he is born

You have absolutely no proof for this statement.

there is more proof for this than against it...

[Strwarrior]

to those people who post that islam told us to kill gays, thats all lies,
islam is meant to be merciful, not be a killer.
when islam was in all of the middle east, they was helping the non-muslims, and u wanna say that they kill gay-muslims , please.. give me some real proofs, or dont even post.

[wootpops]

well i talked to 2 muslims. one from egypt one from canada.

egyptian one basically told me they are poison and i should stay away basically and aren't killed under normal conditions only if they are a threat to the community they live.

the canadian one told me that the egyptian one sounds crazy and i shouldn't really listen to him, but as a gay muslim you would be shunned from the muslim religion. He also spent the past year in syria studying his religion.

so from what i gathered gay muslims aren't killed normally. just shunned/banned from the culture.

[SM-Count]

a man doesn't choose to be gay, its the way he is born

You have absolutely no proof for this statement.

there is more proof for this than against it...

There's no substantive or conclusive proof that homosexuality is either inborn or not. There can't be 'more proof' for something when there's no proof for it to begin with.

Sure, the early psychology theories that homosexuality was lashing out because of early abuse couldn't turn up a significant finding, and that's also true for a few other theories. Yes, that narrows down the amount of theories but that doesn't only make the inborn theory more likely, it increases all plausible theories (obviously demons infecting you does not apply) by the same amount. That's usually what people who say gays are inborn use as 'proof', well all the other ones aren't right, so this is the only one left, we win.

[Puma60]

a man doesn't choose to be gay, its the way he is born

You have absolutely no proof for this statement.

Your saying people choose to be gay? Explain...?

[Strwarrior]

a man doesn't choose to be gay, its the way he is born

You have absolutely no proof for this statement.

... please tell me u are not serious.

[XemnasXD]

You have absolutely no proof for this statement.

there is more proof for this than against it...

There's no substantive or conclusive proof that homosexuality is either inborn or not. There can't be 'more proof' for something when there's no proof for it to begin with.

Sure, the early psychology theories that homosexuality was lashing out because of early abuse couldn't turn up a significant finding, and that's also true for a few other theories. Yes, that narrows down the amount of theories but that doesn't only make the inborn theory more likely, it increases all plausible theories (obviously demons infecting you does not apply) by the same amount. That's usually what people who say gays are inborn use as 'proof', well all the other ones aren't right, so this is the only one left, we win.

That "theory" was more spread by word of mouth than any actual credibility. You are right the cause of homosexuality is unknown but studies one children with gender issues, twins where one is gay and one is not, a greater understanding of the homosexual thought process, and improved psychological testing based on hard facts and studies are pointing to the fact that homosexuality is not a choice. When trying to figure out something like this that you don't know one of the best things to do is eliminate the things you do know.

We do know that attempting to change someones sexuality via therapy, camps, training, or any type of session does not work and often times leaves the patient far worse than they were when they start and in many cases can lead to death via suicide.

We do know that homosexual brains process information in a different way than heterosexual brains. Gay man for example on average process information like most women. This isn't saying they have girly thoughts, men and women process information differently in their heads. Women have smaller brains that can compute more, faster than men. Men has larger brains but compute information slower but the process of interpreting information is less efficient than women. Thats what i mean by thought processes.

Also we know that homosexuals respond to different pheromones than heterosexuals. Whether this Pavlov's Dog type of thing im not sure but it at least proves that gay men are biologically attracted to other men. There is also numerous documentation of homosexual behavior in animals. Both Dolphins and Chimps have displayed homosexual behavior and there are records of several species of animals who normally display heterosexual behavior taking up homosexual behavior temporarily or sometimes permanently.

This is what i meant when i said there is more evidence supporting the theory that homosexuality is not a choice. There are very very clear biological indicators that show that some animals are simply homosexual or exhibit homosexual preferences. The evidence supporting choice is not nearly has documented or fact based as the evidence against it.

[Love]

a man doesn't choose to be gay, its the way he is born

You have absolutely no proof for this statement.

that is a nice topic to argue about but fact is that we are all predetermined to act/react in a certain way to any given scenario. what i mean by this is that all that is "you"/anything will always react in a certain way against all elements without fail, weak link in said "fact" being, lack of knowledge. so in theory if we go by that you can predict the future for all infinity, again as long as you posses absolute knowledge, this in turn makes things such as the word "random" a reality we created. connect that to w/e is happening in the discussing, it can make sense

[SM-Count]

Labeling theory explains everything you just said. There was an old study (90s, old) on how normal people labeled as schizos started thinking they were crazy and a noticeable difference in hormone production began along with disorganized thought similar to how mental patients are perceived, not how schizos actually behave. (The hormone was not necessarily dopamine, I forget the details) What you offer are correlated with homos but they do not, necessarily, cause homosexuality. Amatuer chess players process information differently when looking at a chess board, that doesn't mean they were born a chess player. It's could be a combination of environment and biology, it could just be environment, it could be completely socially dependent on other humans, I don't know, but it's very premature and foolish to say:

"Because there are differences of a biological nature between homosexuals and heterosexuals, the biological differences sets off an inevitable process whereby a human becomes a homosexual." (just wanted to use the word whereby tbh)

This is what you guys are saying. He's born gay, it doesn't matter the environment, it doesn't matter the social interactions, he can't help it, he's gay. Forget all the other stuff about why the 'evidence' isn't legitimate evidence, just that sentence, does it make as much intuitive sense as before?

@above
Not really... I think it's two different subjects: that of fate and whether or not it exists, and that of how causation works. Observable differences does not imply causation, assuming such leads to logical fallacy. Of course, Fate is often as misunderstood. (Anyone that says escaping fate is a [oxy]moron)

[XxDeeDeeDeexX]

Lets stop worrying about how/why somebody becomes gay, and how we can start taking care of the Muslims, who apparently have a worse disorder than homosexuality. Religion is the oldest way to control people, I think it has long out served its purpose. I understand we're all human, and don't always agree, and get along. But religion seems to make people think very primitavely. DADAADADAA THEY NO BELIEVE IN ME GOD ME BLOW THEM UP DADADADADA. Enough of it, either in 1000 years, everybody is going to be a Muslim, or nobody is going to be religious.

[XemnasXD]

I never said any of those things were the cause of homosexuality. I just said that there is more evidence to it being biological than there is for it being a choice. Labeling theory does not explain all of the points. By your logic than there is no such thing as heterosexual people, just people who are convinced they are heterosexual. Also this would not explain the homosexual behavior that has been noted in other animals. Futhermore Labeling theory has never been applied to sexuality. It is an argument for the validity of mental illness and social conditioning, neither of which apply to sexuality unless you are imply that we are mentally ill and even then Labeling theory deals mostly with the stigmas attached to the label not deep biological factors. A labeled can can become depressed or withdrawn and that could drastically change their hormones, the same thing happens to non-labeled people.

Besides none of the factors i listed above are theories they are proven test results. I don't understand the relevance of your chess player argument with relation to my example of information processing either. The way brains interpret data is completely biological, unless the brain is somehow altered or damaged the way a person process information does not change. Your chess player was probably born to play chess or at least excel at strategic thinking and puzzles.

There are possible environmental factors but these do not change sexual orientation, they may however psychologically warp or scar a person. There is also a thing as situational homosexuality. It can be seen in prisons or in the gay porn industry where straight men participate in gay sex (gay-for-pay). These men are not gay though even if they partake in homosexual acts. The same situation would for a person who was molested and therefore swung to sex rather than the other for psychological reasons.

The role environment has to play in this issue is mostly a psychological one, not a biological one. The evidence is points to those facts. Some people are born with blue eyes, some with green, some are born crack babies others addicted to alcohol, some are born gay and some are born straight...

[SM-Count]

I never said any of those things were the cause of homosexuality. I just said that there is more evidence to it being biological than there is for it being a choice.

I must not be understanding you, what exactly does "being biological" mean? I interpret it as "biology determines sexuality" i.e. biology causes people to be gay/not gay. If none of your things support the point that "biology determines sexuality" and, therefore, gay people have no choice, then all the stuff you wrote is absolutely worthless. What is your point? I don't get it at all. You say your evidence is not evidence, they're proven test results. So what? Great, homos think differently than heteros... so?

(So thinking determines homosexuality, they have no control over thinking, thinking is controlled by biology, biology determines sexuality... but you say your evidence doesn't (and as I'm pointing out, can't) support that)

There are possible environmental factors but these do not change sexual orientation, they may however psychologically warp or scar a person.

Um... ok. You obviously have so much evidence about how environmental factors can't change sexual orientation at all right? That's why you're not completely bullshitting about how environmental factors don't change anything. And it's not even good bullshitting, 'warp'? Wth does that even mean? I can 'warp' a straight person into a gay person. This isn't even an argument based off facts, it's just filler to attempt to debunk an argument you have no good answer to. Your answer is pretty much, "it can't cause I can make up a reason it can't." Yeah, great, I can make up reasons all day about how gay people aren't connected to biology. e.g. Gay people aren't connected by biology because identical twins, when separated at birth, one turned gay. This proves environment is most important. Or, two kids grew up in the same neighborhood and were best friends, one's dad abused him and he turned gay, obviously it's a mix of biology and social factors. Sure, those two scenarios must've happened somewhere, doesn't prove shit just like how your statement about environmental factors doesn't mean shit.

This whole debate is about evidence, you're making up scenarios you heard about. There's a reason we funnel evidence, so we don't just go off polls taken by playboy magazine and call it research.

Edit: I'm going to sleep. Any replies will be answered in the morning. Maybe I'll draw a chart or something, pictures and the internet works well, and anyone QQing about how we derailed, tbh, this is more interesting than people going "stupid turks".

[zShared]

whats wrong with being gay, a man doesn't choose to be gay, its the way he is born.

That's the thing.. it has not been proven nor disproved that people are born gay. I'm not a Muslim and I don't know what they believe on the subject.. but here is the christian bible's view;

Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." would be the most straightforward I think.

Spoiler!

Anyone who has heard of the cities of "Sodom and Gommorah" knows that they were notorious hotbeds of homosexuality. Gen 19:5-8 "and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.' But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.'" The Greek word in the New Testament for homosexuality is literally "a sodomite". Jock is trying to redefine what the term "sodomite" means. (A term that has unchanged in 5000 years, even today- "sodomy") Apart from the fact the city was clearly destroyed by God because of homosexuality in the narrative of Gen 19, even the New Testament clearly states exactly the same thing in Jude 7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Any sinner should always remember that the God who commands us to love our neighbour is the same God who will cast any and all unrepentant sinners into the "eternal fire". Here are more Bible quotes, Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals" 1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers" Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

@XemnasXD Did you just.. wtf. Having a certain eye color is dependent on your parents genetics. Being born a crack baby is because your mother is a crackwhore.. not genetics. The last part... well, that's your opinion.. don't state it as a fact until it's proven as one (If it ever is)
about the animals you claim had homosexual tendencies.. could you give a little more information, Were there females around? I kind of find it hard to believe as if it were true.. and evolution were true (I'm assuming you believe in evolution here, correct me if I'm wrong) then the animals with the "gay gene" (Or whatever you'd like to call it) would have died out long ago due to.... not reproducing.