Violent Criminals Have Human Rights Too

[inky]

Sounds like a great way to tyranny. Don't like someone + have political power? Get a trumped up charge and do whatever you want with them, good stuff.

It's a simple introduction of a new punishment system. The judicial process will remain, more or less, the same. There's still going to be a trial complete with a judge, lawyers, the jury - the entire party. How on Earth would that spark tyranny? And as stated before, people who wish to abuse their political power will abuse it regardless of whether we change the system or not anyway. In case you forgot, we do have an existing penitentiary and execution system that your so-called aspiring tyrants could use "at their disposal" (following your logic) you know?

Unless you could disprove that the program is cost-efficient and would benefit society rather than leech from it, my views on this certain matter will remain the same.

[SM-Count]

Unless you could disprove that the program is cost-efficient and would benefit society rather than leech from it, my views on this certain matter will remain the same.

No I agree completely on that matter, having criminals in prison is a huge waste of resources. The point is:

The judicial process will remain, more or less, the same.

Is a completely false statement. If someone gets convicted as a violent criminal, you're saying to take away his rights as a human being under w/e country's law you happen to be in so you can torture him/whatever. That means no habeas corpus, no appellate process etc. One conviction and nothing can touch you as long as you're a "violent criminal".

Sure, in an ideal world where the judicial system works and people don't abuse their power kill them, but then again in an ideal world there wouldn't be any of these criminals in the first place. Yes, many of them deserve death/torture rightfully, but it's impractical to draft actual laws.

[CeLL]

Sounds like a great way to tyranny. Don't like someone + have political power? Get a trumped up charge and do whatever you want with them, good stuff.

What's the differences? Sounds like today's politics... Even at the local level. I've gotten a ticket for not having my grass cut short enough.(all because I pissed someone off on the council)I've been rewarded a ticket for not having the back axle on my project car while it was in front of my garage.(yet it was tagged and insured.) If I had not paid those tickets I'm sure they would have been more than happy to have the sheriff come out. ... but yeah, that's just on the local level, it gets worse on state and federal. (IRS FTW!..)

they cut your grass for you and charge you the cost here. its common. and just how long was that dangerously disambled vehicle sitting in front of your garage? you didnt bother to mention that.

[Fiction]

Sounds like a great way to tyranny. Don't like someone + have political power? Get a trumped up charge and do whatever you want with them, good stuff.

What's the differences? Sounds like today's politics... Even at the local level. I've gotten a ticket for not having my grass cut short enough.(all because I pissed someone off on the council)I've been rewarded a ticket for not having the back axle on my project car while it was in front of my garage.(yet it was tagged and insured.) If I had not paid those tickets I'm sure they would have been more than happy to have the sheriff come out. ... but yeah, that's just on the local level, it gets worse on state and federal. (IRS FTW!..)

they cut your grass for you and charge you the cost here. its common. and just how long was that dangerously disambled vehicle sitting in front of your garage? you didnt bother to mention that.

lol Dangerous? It's a mid engine car. I had to take the back axle and the sub frame out from under it to swap motors. It was only there for a week and a half... Either way, it's my property, my car. I pay taxes and insurance on both. It was just as dangerous as any other car sitting in front of a garage...

I think after a certain time they mow the grass for you here too, but I'll drive through town and there's people with grass twice as long as mine has ever got... It's just annoying- I'm sure the code enforcement officer or the council has a problem.

There has been other stupid shit they pull too... Like when I went to put in a drive way, I asked them to come mark the lines and shit... 2 months go past, after going up there at least 3-4x in the period and still they wouldn't take 5 minutes to mark them...(also this was after I got the permit)

[ZaKnighT]

Prison and Rehabilitation..

[inky]

@SM:
But we already have a penitentiary system in place. If someone who has enough power to manipulate the judicial branch wants you dead or locked up, I'm pretty sure that person could think of more ways to make you disappear, with or without that change. Besides, it would be much easier just to assassinate you without having to stage a major court case and falsify evidence. I'm just saying.

As for the appeal process, maybe this time, the term "beyond unreasonable doubt" would be taken much more seriously. Besides, a lot of these goddamn criminals are able to walk the street and slip away from the prison's grasp because of some technicality bullshit his lawyer managed to whip out of his ass.

You mentioned that we don't live in a perfect world; that is very much true. But I see no reason why people shouldn't think of more ways to improve it.

@Fiction:
You're getting trolled.

Speaking of Cell, I wonder whatever happened to Thomas42 (guy who made his sig). He was pretty active in AC before I left.

[XemnasXD]

Most crimes committed can probably be traced back to some kind of problem with society and the only thing prison does is alienate them further until only other criminals will associate with them. It is possible for people to turn their lives around after prison but that doesn't really solve the problem or lower crime. So because the problem isn't solved it's likely to just occur again and again with different or sometimes the same people.

I think especially with youth criminals, violent and non-violent, a serious effort should be made to rehabilitate them and then move them to an environment where they can't fall back into the problems that got them sent there in the first place. Otherwise it's like sending a crack addict to rehab, locking them in a room with crack once they get out, then wondering why they're back on crack again.

I think for first time non-violent offenders, a serious effort should be made to rehabilitate them and put them in a more productive environment. Maybe get them an education of some kind and an apprenticeship depending on their age.

Outside of those areas things start to gray. If you're going to inflict actual punishment on them i don't think you have the right unless society accepts that they are indirectly responsible in most of those cases for perpetuating a cycle that creates poor, uneducated, and violent people who have nothing to lose. If you actually accept that then there's no way you could physically inflict punishment on them unless the case is extreme and the more extreme it gets the more closer you get to entering mentally unstable people.

Some people are beyond rehabilitation but that's not entirely their fault. If their jailers are society then society can't be responsible for their crimes which in most cases they are. Death would be the swiftest and quickest way to deal with such a problem. And i don't mean like 10 years and 5 million dollars worth of appeals later death. I mean you're convicted without a doubt and then you get shot, the end. But the fast and easy way will probably just make things worse in the long run because it certainly won't solve anything...

Deciding the rights and livelihood of criminals is hard because you're essentially judging them and no one but an impartial unbiased god like being could look at the facts and determine how things could've been different if maybe the killers dad didn't beat him and his mom wasn't working all the time and he didn't need that money when he was 15 so he could buy food and feel safe. Because that's what you actually have to do if you're going to sit there and judge anybody like this. People can't do that though, so whatever system of punishment we come up with will always be flawed...


the futility...

[SM-Count]

maybe this time, the term "beyond unreasonable doubt" (it's beyond a reasonable doubt, btw) would be taken much more seriously. Besides, a lot of these goddamn criminals are able to walk the street and slip away from the prison's grasp because of some technicality bullshit his lawyer managed to whip out of his ass.

-____________________________-
That's was like 90% of my previous post's point, there is no "this time", the judicial system doesn't magically get better when you enact taking away violent criminal's human rights, innocent people will still get charged with something more severe cause of imbecile lawyers and criminals will walk away with a slap on the wrist for the same reason.

You're also thinking way too CSI. Get 16 yr old, give her a fake id, have her seduce a victim -> rape -> jail -> no rights -> do whatever you want with him. Also, what constitutes a "violent crime"? Is manslaughter a violent crime? How bout beating up a wife?

Cause if the former isn't then all the murderers who have reduced manslaughter charges (whatever the reason, be it plea or insufficient proof for the higher charge or some complicated lawyer word that I don't know) go to jail and you haven't solved anything, if the latter does count then you'll be killing people for simple domestic violence charges who may not be beating up his/her spouse (to go gender neutral for the 3 girls who may or may not read this sentence, slight possibility of 4 if one still lurks) Of course reversing the decisions on those two charges have similar unjust results.

The thinking "Man wouldn't it be great if we could just kill all the murders and torture the people who rape little girls?" is simply impractical anywhere. I'm sure when they thought up the "lets burn all witches" and "stone all adulterers" it was a great idea too, no one would accuse someone of being a witch or raping them deceptively! When someone figures out how to be 100% (or maybe 99.99999%*) assured that the people getting deprived of their rights are deserving, you might have a legitimate argument.

*I'll take the 1 in ten million error as having wolves eat your limbs while staying alive should have similar probability and should yield approximately the same pain

[MrTwilliger]

I really want to make 2 main points to this thread. First of all, your idea of looking from things form the victims point of view is so one sided. I was going to make a big rant about it, but Xenmas basically summed up everything I wanted to say. Your thoughts make it sound like all people who commit a crime are under sound mind and are uninfluenced by any outside factors. Obviously it doesn't work this way in real life, refer to his post as I really don't feel like ranting the same things he is saying.

My second point, which I will explain a bit more clearly, goes back to the idea that we get it wrong. As SM summed up, no system it perfect. I, personally, don't believe in any form of capital punishment. Because, frankly, we get it wrong. In Australia, capital punishment was last used in 1967. Ronald Ryan was found guilty in court, sentenced and hung. Although the important part is, there was no hard evidence that he committed the crime. He was accused for shooting a police officer, yet the bullet was never actually found. The only grounds on which he was committed were 11 eye witness accounts, but there was many inconsistencies in their stories. He was committed to death without any hard, substantial evidence. To me that just doesn't seem right. Same theory applies to your "idea".

[CeLL]

What's the differences? Sounds like today's politics... Even at the local level. I've gotten a ticket for not having my grass cut short enough.(all because I pissed someone off on the council)I've been rewarded a ticket for not having the back axle on my project car while it was in front of my garage.(yet it was tagged and insured.) If I had not paid those tickets I'm sure they would have been more than happy to have the sheriff come out. ... but yeah, that's just on the local level, it gets worse on state and federal. (IRS FTW!..)

they cut your grass for you and charge you the cost here. its common. and just how long was that dangerously disambled vehicle sitting in front of your garage? you didnt bother to mention that.

lol Dangerous? It's a mid engine car. I had to take the back axle and the sub frame out from under it to swap motors. It was only there for a week and a half... Either way, it's my property, my car. I pay taxes and insurance on both. It was just as dangerous as any other car sitting in front of a garage...

I think after a certain time they mow the grass for you here too, but I'll drive through town and there's people with grass twice as long as mine has ever got... It's just annoying- I'm sure the code enforcement officer or the council has a problem.

There has been other stupid shit they pull too... Like when I went to put in a drive way, I asked them to come mark the lines and shit... 2 months go past, after going up there at least 3-4x in the period and still they wouldn't take 5 minutes to mark them...(also this was after I got the permit)

if thats the case than it sounds you me like you are hilbilying up a snobby neighborhood, or thats how someone in your neighborhood sees it. and i wasnt aware a car missing an axle is safe, what do you use to support the side without the axle again?

[inky]

I'm just waiting for my next class right now so I'll just touch on some points that stood up as I did a quick read over the responses:

1. I understand that it's pretty much close to impossible that we can guarantee that the judicial process will work perfectly for every trial. However, it then becomes a matter of weighing the consequences of both options. I see mine as a better alternative to the one that currently exists. I stated my reasons for that clearly. (And thus we've reached the core of our disagreement)

2. The fact that someone lived under poverty or that they've been exposed to violence all their life does not justify their actions. I think we could at least agree on that one. However, I believe that people should still be held accountable for their own actions. The way I see it, rehabilitation is simply a way of serving them rather than punishing them for their actions. Of course, the type of punishment must depend on the severity of the crime. Your way-of-thinking is the reason why we have these "rehabilitated" criminals committing more crime after doing some time. I find it completely ridiculous that other people feel the need to ignore the actual issue and have some sort of self-entitlenment to say that the victim and his/her family have no right to real justice - that it's better to hand the case to this failure of a judicial system which would probably put a murderer or a rapist in jail temporarily for causing permanent damage. As for sm's question, I really wouldn't suggest delving into every little detail of the crime - simply the basics: you intentionally rape and kill someone, you go to "labor camp."

[Fiction]

lol @ CeLL... Just stfu, You've proven time after time you don't know shit outside of what you google... so enough with your trolling.

You've obviously never worked on a car a day in your life.

[Luiei]

Well.. If you take an innocent life for no real reason except to quench your bloodlust then lethal injection tbh.

Rape should really be considered case to case, some can be kind of tricky. Raping a little girl is about as horrible as it gets and that person should be fucked up pretty bad..

[CeLL]

lol @ CeLL... Just stfu, You've proven time after time you don't know shit outside of what you google... so enough with your trolling.

You've obviously never worked on a car a day in your life.

yep, i googled every response in this thread. you caught me.

Despite what others say, I don’t have to waste a single keystroke trolling you friction. You accomplish it just fine on your own.

[McLovin1t]

If they didn't get Rehabilitation, then the chances of a repeat offender is much higher. If they are treated poorly, there is little chance they will be "kind" to others. People can change, but do they change? Only they can know so they will always be scum to me.
Armed Robbery is also not nearly the same as rape/murder and is usually an act of desperation. Not often Violent as it is Intimidation.

As for their rights, are you talking after or during incarceration?

This and totally depends on the case. I think rehabilitation, if not that, then because they broke the social contract, jail/torture/lethal injection i would say. However, jail is a pretty failing system, considering the recidivism rate.

[Pinoy_Archer]

I'd say recycle them. Its not because i love Gore, blood, and flying organs. Its because the world has such a small space... and this space takes hell of a short time to fill up. Breakthrough technology and medical advancements saves lives and reducing the percentage of imminent death. And we need more space.pylons

*here lies a 5 paragraph speech regarding severals ways to how to reduce human population that was totally derailing and absurdly off topic, that took me (like) 30 mins to make... but meh...*

To those prisoners that have countless crimes and that are lined for lifetime in prison are most likely i would pick. Some of their organs remains healthy and amazingly strong (i just heard, i never did saw one). From this, some people can benefit from it. The needy and those who deserve a second chance. And probably the psychological effects of this might turn out positive to the society, crime rates might decrease for a certain amount of time, depending on how the people will adjust to it. For the families of those whos offspring, sibling have just been "Recycled" i feel less pity for them. First. Its the prisoner's fault why his life went fucked up. Second. It aint a total lost since they could probably visit the dude that got his brother's arm and hold it like he used to.

Well probably more ideas will come in my head. I just post when i feel like it. wow /b/ just turned me to nerd @_@

I like this kind of threads...

[Barotix]

An individual that has broken the non-initiation of force axiom has ceded his rights and given the wronged individual the right to take matters into his own hands and seek reparations. Be that a case of eye for an eye or out of court arbitration/settlement. The Government - specifically the judicial branch and it's monopoly on arbitration - slows the process down as I'm sure there would be less Rapist/Murderers/Molesters if there were not a chance they can slip by on a technicality in our "legal" system. Individuals seeking Justice would do so and "violent" individuals will be forced - for lack of a better word - to put their inclinations to better use lest they conjure up the fury of one thousand nations*** I believe the fear of retaliation and use of necessary force can curb crime. Would this result in the formation of Lynch Mobs? Unlikely as unorganized lynch mobs would be inefficient and sloppy, individuals will seize the moment and form organized Arbiter businesses and the Market - that is Individuals interacting (networking, buying, selling, and trading) on a day to day basis will be the judge of competing companies.


***exaggeration

[korroke]

Since i don't beleive in the whole prison=rehabilitation... Are there any other places in the U.S where criminals can receive rehabilitation?