Gays and Muslims

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Strwarrior
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

inky wrote:
Strwarrior wrote:@inky, Good night :P,


anyways, i really doubt any real muslim would say kill gays, thats just really stupid, Muhammad himself said "There is No difference between Black Person and White Person" (in that times black people were just slaves, they were like tools for white people), so how u think some1 like him would tell us to kill gays? or why god give a mom a gay son? to get killed?


Thanks. It's 10AM here atm lol.

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That word is what separates extremists and fanatics from the peaceful ones. Their interpretation of what "real Muslim" means is different. Btw, extremist Muslims have and are still killing gay people. Read the reports regarding the anti-gay death squads organized by Muslim religious fanatics. There's always people like those in almost every religion though.


well, yeah maybe they do, any ways. sure its some racial people >.<
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by VeniVidiVici »

Sk8board wrote:KILLED?!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't kill him (YES WE!), in fact, there is rarely any gays in the Muslim world


And why is that do you think? Those who actually are, are afraid of being killed or physically abused.

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Puma60 »

Strwarrior wrote:Give me a proof that Muslim religion say that gays must be killed.
thats all lies, i highly doubt any real muslim would say that,

and about that guy called ahmadinajad, that guy have another beliefs, he is from "Sheeaa" or something like that, every year they have a day they hit themselves for a stupid reason.. they do alot different things..

Give me a REAL MUSLIM saying that.. That man is just another person who made rules and he doesnt follow muslims rules..

rules are rules, they didnt "like" it, so they didnt follow it all, they just followed what they "like". follow all or leave all.

and about killing gays in that countries, thats all fakes, as i said, thats not from the Muslim Religion, and i really doubt that its even true.

now get me a proof that Muslim Religion SAYS: "KILL GAYS" . or dont even post, ur post is just useless.


The bottom line is, gays are not accepted in Muslim dominated countries. Is that just a coincidence that the majority of the people living in Muslim dominated countries are just plain narrow minded, or is it that their religion is teaching them this? You cannot deny that gays are not welcome (by the majority) in Muslim countries.
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Strwarrior
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

@Dopple, where u got that? lol, ( 4:16 ) << can any1 tell me what this mean? XD


And, there is always "Tawba" when u ask god for a forgive, thats all u have to do, but u have to mean it, and not do it again.. if u do, so u can also do "Tawba" again, its endless times, but keep repeating that is only for people who have very low faith in their god.

~Edit: probably what ofy said is the truth, i just dont know from where u got it, which place and page, so i cant check it.


now im going.. >_<
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Barotix »

Strwarrior wrote:@Dopple, where u got that? lol, ( 4:16 ) << can any1 tell me what this mean? XD


And, there is always "Tawba" when u ask god for a forgive, thats all u have to do, but u have to mean it, and not do it again.. if u do, so u can also do "Tawba" again, its endless times, but keep repeating that is only for people who have very low faith in their god.

~Edit: probably what ofy said is the truth, i just dont know from where u got it, which place and page, so i cant check it.


now im going.. >_<


The Noble Quran Chapter 4, Verse 16? Lol, dunno.
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Draquish »

Meh. Going "by the book" I find Abrahamic religions to be very intolerant of homosexuals. Some modern religious groups now choose to ignore(pick-choose) bits and pieces of what they supposedly believe is "decree by the utmost authority in the cosmos". How I see it, they're just incrementally abandoning their religious doctrine.

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Stephanus »

In the end all what we see is this:
There are good ppl in any nation/religion.
There are bad ppl in any nation/religion.
Also, mostly big religions have something against homosexuality. It doesnt matter if you are muslim or christian or whatever.
End of story.
It is a hard time for muslims, because the Church of islam(please forgive me for this) has strong bounds with the states/political might and thats a bad thing on many levels, but hey, ppl are ppl:)
They will learn in the end.
The end.
Code: Select all


ps: We(europeans) had the same case in medivheal times... and then suddenly there came the renessaince. Thus began the age of man with God as bystander(he vas retired as protagonist, mostly by vanishing the political might and influence of the christian church). We know he is there but we know he is just watching over us, its no wonder he gave us free will:)
We should use it, not throw it out like some ppl(fanatics).

SM-Count:
Just for you.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1761
Also i readed articles about pollution and homosexuality and its rly interesting how it works. Living beings dont chose what they like(male/female), they were born like that.
Last edited by Stephanus on Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Well, looking at GD, i cant say anything but i had to show how is it there.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=103978
Also, trolls in action:)
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=83961&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Enjoy.

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Mirosuke »

SidiousX wrote:
Mirosuke wrote:imo People choose, they don't born gay.
*sigh at topic and post*


Just ask urself, did u choose to be straight?

Well, being no gay, means i choosed to be straight? lol
Don't you wonder why people "go out of the closet"? That does not happen when you born.
I mean, it's depend how people raise you and the environment of where u been raised. And the circle of friends etc.
I still have no idea how come people "born as gay". And being gay is more an atittude than a physical appearance.

This is my opinion :?
You don't need to agree with me.
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by XemnasXD »

SM-Count wrote:
@Xem
I think I'm understanding where there's been a misunderstanding, I'm not saying homosexuality is necessarily a choice (although there are good arguments for it, the evidence is also nonexistent) rather the statement 'you're born gay' is ignorant and has no evidence, i.e. there's no evidence supporting biology is solely responsible for someone ending up gay or straight. The ever popular, and very, very plausible sounding, predisposition (i.e. you are susceptible by your biology to become gay and if the environment or social interactions are neutral then you become gay, however if they push hard enough for you to be straight then you become straight despite the predisposition. Or, in your words, a combination of random biological, environmental, and social factors that push a biologically favored person to become gay) also has no good evidence supporting it, as good as it sounds. Of course, this is a theory and as to what those env/soc forces are I'm really not sure, but as far as evidence goes, it is the same as a pure bio theory on homo.

I agree it's not a choice, I don't agree on stating it's only biologically determined when there's no evidence for it proving causation.


If someone is biologically predispositioned to be gay then i don't see how any amount of pushing except for severe psychological trauma (rape/abuse) could alter their course. If the brain process information a different way and if the body responds to different pheromones no amount of pushing can erase those things. All credible psychological organizations warn heavily against trying to change a persons sexuality. Because of evidence like this i don't see the role environmental and social factors can play in the process at the core of the issue. They can cover it, stifle it, and make a person ignore it but they can't change it. You can't change the way the mind processes information or what pheromones cause it to light up. Not without some severe mental damage (for pheromones) or physical damage (for brain process).

I don't know if biology has all the cards in this issue but it certainly has more than environment if my understanding of all the evidence is correct.
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Doppleganger »

Oh its there Strwarrior.
Animals that are separate to us humans have gay sex too. How do they tawba? lol
Or do they just kill them?

If a Muslim male wants to marry a female that isn't Muslim she has to either be a Christian or a Jew anything other than those two is forbidden.
So what if a Muslim male falls in love and marries a girl that isn't Christian or Jewish. He tawba's once then they live happily for the rest of there lives and he goes into heaven without her?

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

Doppleganger wrote:Oh its there Strwarrior.
Animals that are separate to us humans have gay sex too. How do they tawba? lol
Or do they just kill them?

If a Muslim male wants to marry a female that isn't Muslim she has to either be a Christian or a Jew anything other than those two is forbidden.
So what if a Muslim male falls in love and marries a girl that isn't Christian or Jewish. He tawba's once then they live happily for the rest of there lives and he goes into heaven without her?


Muslims religion have notthing to do with animals >_> .
actually what u said is true, muslim cant marry another than that 2.
but if she really loved him, she would turn muslim if she really cares about him, thats the fact.. or he cant marry her, and no, he cant just tawba and live with her.. lol, u have to take these things serious, its not jokes.. like u always do every where.

~Edit: spelling mistakes, changed "Can" >> "cant"
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Stephanus »

Strwarrior wrote:*****
Muslims religion have notthing to do with animals >_> .
actually what u said is true, muslim cant marry another than that 2.
but if she really loved him, she would turn muslim if she really cares about him, thats the fact.. or he cant marry her, and no, he cant just tawba and live with her.. lol, u have to take these things serious, its not jokes.. like u always do every where.

~Edit: spelling mistakes, changed "Can" >> "cant"


May i ask you what happens if the man/woman loves his/her beloved so much, he/she abandons islamic religion?

ps: i sent a pm for you sa7by :)
Well, looking at GD, i cant say anything but i had to show how is it there.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=103978
Also, trolls in action:)
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=83961&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Enjoy.

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

Stephanus wrote:
Strwarrior wrote:*****
Muslims religion have notthing to do with animals >_> .
actually what u said is true, muslim cant marry another than that 2.
but if she really loved him, she would turn muslim if she really cares about him, thats the fact.. or he cant marry her, and no, he cant just tawba and live with her.. lol, u have to take these things serious, its not jokes.. like u always do every where.

~Edit: spelling mistakes, changed "Can" >> "cant"


May i ask you what happens if the man/woman loves his/her beloved so much, he/she abandons islamic religion?

ps: i sent a pm for you sa7by :)

i dont know >.< , maybe he should try with her to go back.. make her understand. but i really dunno what may happen.
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Noobs_Slayer »

Muslims do not know word tolerance. I've read that gays can be killed by police and ordinary citizens and I think it just don't make any sense because if people were same it wasn't interesting at all. By the way how can someone judge about people from the way they sleep with? NONSENCE! I believe that muslims take those silly books too serious...
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Stephanus »

Strwarrior wrote:****
i dont know >.< , maybe he should try with her to go back.. make her understand. but i really dunno what may happen.

Me neither but hey, just ask someone who knows:)

You see im full of doubt when its about religions.
Because every religion is made by God(usualy) and every religion wants the best for all, but... every religion consists of human beings.
And AFAIK we are selfish, sometimes mean, distrustfull, and so on.
If you can influence other ppl, you have power/might.
Also, power corrupts human hearth and it does not matter how pure or strong your heart is, you will be corrupted by power.
This goes for your religion too. Hipocracy and deceitness is everyvhere, so please, be carefull.


ps:
I retire from the topic, i will just read it for now.
Well, looking at GD, i cant say anything but i had to show how is it there.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=103978
Also, trolls in action:)
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=83961&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Enjoy.

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

@step, ok, i will ask some1 for u ^_^ :P
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by SM-Count »

XemnasXD wrote:
SM-Count wrote:
@Xem
I think I'm understanding where there's been a misunderstanding, I'm not saying homosexuality is necessarily a choice (although there are good arguments for it, the evidence is also nonexistent) rather the statement 'you're born gay' is ignorant and has no evidence, i.e. there's no evidence supporting biology is solely responsible for someone ending up gay or straight. The ever popular, and very, very plausible sounding, predisposition (i.e. you are susceptible by your biology to become gay and if the environment or social interactions are neutral then you become gay, however if they push hard enough for you to be straight then you become straight despite the predisposition. Or, in your words, a combination of random biological, environmental, and social factors that push a biologically favored person to become gay) also has no good evidence supporting it, as good as it sounds. Of course, this is a theory and as to what those env/soc forces are I'm really not sure, but as far as evidence goes, it is the same as a pure bio theory on homo.

I agree it's not a choice, I don't agree on stating it's only biologically determined when there's no evidence for it proving causation.


If someone is biologically predispositioned to be gay then i don't see how any amount of pushing except for severe psychological trauma (rape/abuse) could alter their course. If the brain process information a different way and if the body responds to different pheromones no amount of pushing can erase those things. All credible psychological organizations warn heavily against trying to change a persons sexuality. Because of evidence like this i don't see the role environmental and social factors can play in the process at the core of the issue. They can cover it, stifle it, and make a person ignore it but they can't change it. You can't change the way the mind processes information or what pheromones cause it to light up. Not without some severe mental damage (for pheromones) or physical damage (for brain process).

I don't know if biology has all the cards in this issue but it certainly has more than environment if my understanding of all the evidence is correct.

I think the point you've been missing, or I haven't been able to successfully display, is that there is no biological wiring that makes you gay. Maybe a list will help me get organized.

1. There are biological differences (brain fuctions, I'm guessing from fMRIs, for example) -> The differences does not/can not imply causation. I think you agree with this point.

2. Predisposition does not mean there's something wired in you that will make you gay unless environment and social factors come into play.

3. Predisposition relies heavily on social interaction. I made a mistake in saying environment being netural, there are no neutral environment and no neutral social interactions, the predisposition makes it easier for one to accept influence from one side (simplified model of a gay<---->straight spectrum) e.g. Someone with a gay predisposition living in a society that punishes homosexuality heavily may have his biology change. Biology isn't stagnate, it adapts (especially in youth), so someone 'born gay' (with the predisposition) can change, not by their own choice, but by the environment and how they respond to it.

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Doppleganger »

Strwarrior wrote:*****
Muslims religion have notthing to do with animals >_> .
actually what u said is true, muslim cant marry another than that 2.
but if she really loved him, she would turn muslim if she really cares about him, thats the fact.. or he cant marry her, and no, he cant just tawba and live with her.. lol, u have to take these things serious, its not jokes.. like u always do every where.

~Edit: spelling mistakes, changed "Can" >> "cant"


So your saying there aren't any animals in your heaven? lol
Stephanus wrote:May i ask you what happens if the man/woman loves his/her beloved so much, he/she abandons islamic religion?
I'll tell you what happens. They get freed from this homophobic,Controlling,prejudice,Vengeful,fear invoking stupid fairy tale BS and they live happily ever after.
every religion wants the best for all

and by that it means for everyone to believe what there religion says, not anyone elses. They want to "save you" and convert you to what they believe and if you don't your not really accepted and your going to "hell".
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

@Dopple, so? Animals are Animals.. we are talking about people.. not animals, and im not an animal..are u? .. and there is no such thing in Muslims Religion.

@Step, gonna pm u now..
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Re: Gays and Muslims

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Strwarrior wrote: Animals are Animals.. we are talking about people.. not animals, and im not an animal..are u?

Well you are an animal..unless you are an alien.. :o
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by XemnasXD »

SM-Count wrote:I think the point you've been missing, or I haven't been able to successfully display, is that there is no biological wiring that makes you gay. Maybe a list will help me get organized.

1. There are biological differences (brain fuctions, I'm guessing from fMRIs, for example) -> The differences does not/can not imply causation. I think you agree with this point.

2. Predisposition does not mean there's something wired in you that will make you gay unless environment and social factors come into play.

3. Predisposition relies heavily on social interaction. I made a mistake in saying environment being netural, there are no neutral environment and no neutral social interactions, the predisposition makes it easier for one to accept influence from one side (simplified model of a gay<---->straight spectrum) e.g. Someone with a gay predisposition living in a society that punishes homosexuality heavily may have his biology change. Biology isn't stagnate, it adapts (especially in youth), so someone 'born gay' (with the predisposition) can change, not by their own choice, but by the environment and how they respond to it.


Then this is not a misunderstanding but a disagreement. In all my studies of human biology i have never heard of deep physical changes being determined by social environment outside of things like evolution. The only thing that can come close is hormones changes due to states of mind which can weaken a body or change certain aspects of a body but nothing on the level of changing the way the brain works outside of inhibiting the brains proper functions. By that i mean a gay brain is a gay brain and the most hormonal changes could do is alter a gay brain but it can't turn it into a straight one. If they could it would be like saying that Chess players brain could be altered to no longer understand strategy. Which would be impossible unless the brain itself was damaged.

Biology is very much stagnate at a certain level. If a person exposed to alcohol in the womb develops an addiction that addiction is stuck with them for life. Their social environment may remove the presence of alcohol or frown upon its consumption but they are already predispositioned to have a certain reaction to it no matter what. The same applies to sexuality. The proof should be very obvious in countries like Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Jamaica, and other countries Africa where homosexual behavior is often punished with death, and not always a clean one, people are beaten, tortured, burned, etc. Still even in environments such as these which are clearly and obviously hazardous to homosexuals, homosexuality still manages to occur. If what you say is true then all those those who are predispositioned towards homosexuality should have reverted to heterosexuality under those circumstances. Though many are silenced into leading heterosexual or abstinent lives many are still stigmatized and face persecution.

Sexuality does not adapt in youth, it develops. There is a big difference. Development is like a flower blooming and while it is changing it is still the same flower, just different. The other implies something more akin to evolution, the flower is not the same flower, it has altered itself and thus become a different flower. If sexuality could adapt than there would be no gay people in areas where gays are persecuted because there is clearly nothing to be gained from having to go through what they will be forced to endure. We are not frogs or fish where we can change sex on cue in response to our environment.
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Sk8board »

Puma60 wrote:
Sk8board wrote:KILLED?!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't kill him (YES WE!), in fact, there is rarely any gays in the Muslim world


There are probably as many gays in the Muslim race as there are in other less homophobic countries, but as JuelzSantana said, they hide it for their own safety.

The people who are arguing that people CHOOSE to be gay, thats absolutely ridiculous, whether they are born with it or it is determined through childhood, the bottom line is it is not their choice, they cannot do anything about it. Why should gays be shunned from their religion for something they can't help? Almost every other religon has modernised and started accepting gays, but why not the Muslim religion?

Also im still waiting for a Muslim to explain why (some of) their race hate gays so much so that they are shunned from society. As I said in the topic starter, its as bad as the hatred against Blacks in the 1960's, judging someone on something that can't be helped. In this day and age, this kind of predjudice should not be happening, but a religion that is all about equality is promoting it.


Not all of us hate them so much, we hate them cuz its... forbidden, but cuz u cant do anything about being gay, we get over it in time.
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

UnbeatableDevil wrote:
Strwarrior wrote: Animals are Animals.. we are talking about people.. not animals, and im not an animal..are u?

Well you are an animal..unless you are an alien.. :o

yea.. im an alien btw.. scares u?
jk lol, read what ofy said
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by VeniVidiVici »

Edited since this post wasn't a clear explanation. Just to prevent this thread from going downward.
Last edited by VeniVidiVici on Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

VeniVidiVici wrote:Humans are animals. Since we're all the same. We breath the same air, we are all a part of the earth. But human race is further developed. No I don't believe in god. I believe in science, as it has more proof about our origin than someone about a book full of rumours and theory's.

ok then.. as u like.. u are not forced to believe what i believe.. its up to u.
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

ofy1993 wrote:
VeniVidiVici wrote:Humans are animals. Since we're all the same. We breath the same air, we are all a part of the earth. But human race is further developed. No I don't believe in god. I believe in science, as it has more proof about our origin than someone about a book full of rumours and theory's.


Humans have free will animals don't. That's a huge difference. If you see yourself same as animals, that's your choice. So being part of the earth makes us the same? So, you're like a plant. You breath the same air and are a part of the earth. >->

A book full of rumors and theory's? And what do you live by? Let me see here;

The Big Bang THEORY.
The Eveloution THEORY.

Seems like to me you're living on more theories then I am.

lol i was sure u are gonna post this.. so i didnt bother posting it >.< , looks im right :P
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by VeniVidiVici »

It's what I believe in. And in the first post I didn't actually made it really clear, because my english isn't that great to explain it. I'd love to explain it in dutch, but I guess you can't understand that hehe :P

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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by cpinney »

Plutonium wrote:
Love wrote:
cpinney wrote:say something stupid like this again and it will be the last thing you say.

bit uncalled for but meh i guess you can get away with it


+1. Agree with you and Reese. IMO, Cpinney's post was out of line and i think it would be better directed toward SM-Count.

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Strwarrior
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by Strwarrior »

So you think God only takes people to heaven?


No for sure,
Bad People >> Hell
Good People >> Heaven.

Where will the plants go to?

Gone.

And the animals if they die?

Also Die, im not sure if there will be animals in heaven or no. so i cant answer a "coming question" .

But not some guy who made the earth in 7 days.

its a god.. not a guy, a god that says "Be" and it be.

About Jesus.
Yea he was, Allah Gave him this Miracles to make people believe.

About Proofs.. i posted proofs and i know it wasnt understandble, so, i have a good one for u.
in Quran there is " And The moon Split " or something like that.
and the people in Muhammad time wanted a Miracle to make them believe, they wanted him to split the moon.
In the past years they used a Waves (maybe Radar waves, im not sure i saw it in tv long time ago) , and they discovered that moon is 2 pieces, not 1, that waves stopped in a place.. so they knew it, and that is knows these days.

enough proof for u? , i hope i can get some1 can translate better than me, but i dont really know alot about translating and such. :S
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HUUU MADE THIS SIG?? Amarisa

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SM-Count
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Re: Gays and Muslims

Post by SM-Count »

@Xem
Before we discuss any of that, because all of it is based off an assumption, do you have evidence that a gay brain causes homosexuality? (i.e. we look at a brain and we can tell they're going to be gay, bar none?)

Yes, information is processed differently at a electrochemical level, but that doesn't mean some who has a gay brain is automatically gay. At least that's the stance until someone can prove that a gay brain => gay human, as of right now, there's no evidence we're born gay. Which brings back the main point of evidence.

Schizophrenic brains are different than 'normal' brains, but people with larger than normal ventricles in their brains have never displayed symptoms. (a basic predisposition study that's based on an actual disorder rather than sexuality and thus it's been studies more extensively) This is why scientists are so careful not to say people are born schizophrenics. I bet you can not find any reputable article where a researcher will tell you people are born gay, no other factors are involved. This is absolutely wrong because there's no evidence to support it, all we have is data on how the brain looks different, and again, I stress it does not imply causality.

Oh, and I did read the entire thing before replying and ignoring it, but statements such as:
By that i mean a gay brain is a gay brain and the most hormonal changes could do is alter a gay brain but it can't turn it into a straight one

and
Sexuality does not adapt in youth, it develops

and
If sexuality could adapt than there would be no gay people in areas where gays are persecuted because there is clearly nothing to be gained from having to go through what they will be forced to endure.


Imply that sexuality is predetermined instead of predispositioned, which I'm getting tired of saying is not proven. And for the last quote, my reply was in my last reply:
2. Predisposition does not mean there's something wired in you that will make you gay unless environment and social factors come into play.

Of course predisposition is on a scale, so the gay people in that environment would be 'more' predispositioned by their bio (in terms of brains, a male would have more definite straight-female features) so while most are going to be straight, some of the gay males would want to rebel by becoming gay. (of course, I'm making shit up now, but you can see there exists explanations as plausible as your own)

As for the biology thing, nerve connections change a lot during youth and that could have a huge influence. Kid plays chess, new nerve connections favoring logic form. Kid walks in on mommy and daddy and decides that's disgusting, new nerve ending favoring homosexuality form. (The first one is proved, the second one I made up but is plausible and I'd even say likely. Of course you can't really test the second one...)

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