Anyone know the flight path of a projectile?

[Grandpa]

So you are trying to win an argument about this and would like a scenario where all factors are possible?

Well the debate deals with ammunition projectiles, not "pee" projectiles I guess it's not that important, just getting other people's opinions on it.

At least this page, http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/43.cfm, seems to support me when it talks about upward force Flift.

Why not post your question on the site you quoted? They'd laugh you off the forum, newb (no offense). My son is a enthusiast and gun owners aren't known for their tolerance. If I understand your question what you are talking about is a version of a Class A Perpetual Motion machine. Not gonna happen because it would disobey one of the laws of Thermodynamics.

Newton's second law of motion pl0x

Newton's 2nd Law of Motion

Okay, another example to apply what we are speaking about. This time we ignore what is called 'form factor', that is, the shape and amount of surface, and given that - let's get up on the tower again this time with our rifle and a bowling ball. Let's rig so that the ball is dropped straight down and released at the exact same time and from the exact same height that the bullet is shot. Believe it or not, the two projectiles will touch ground at the exact same time. The effect of gravity will pull them to the earth at the same rate regardless of the horizontal velocity because orthogonal forces -- that is, forces at right angles to each other -- have no effect on each other.



~Granps

[PR0METHEUS]

So you are trying to win an argument about this and would like a scenario where all factors are possible?

Well the debate deals with ammunition projectiles, not "pee" projectiles I guess it's not that important, just getting other people's opinions on it.

At least this page, http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/43.cfm, seems to support me when it talks about upward force Flift.

Why not post your question on the site you quoted? They'd laugh you off the forum, newb (no offense). My son is a enthusiast and gun owners aren't known for their tolerance. If I understand your question what you are talking about is a version of a Class A Perpetual Motion machine. Not gonna happen because it would disobey one of the laws of Thermodynamics.

Newton's second law of motion pl0x

Newton's 2nd Law of Motion

Okay, another example to apply what we are speaking about. This time we ignore what is called 'form factor', that is, the shape and amount of surface, and given that - let's get up on the tower again this time with our rifle and a bowling ball. Let's rig so that the ball is dropped straight down and released at the exact same time and from the exact same height that the bullet is shot. Believe it or not, the two projectiles will touch ground at the exact same time. The effect of gravity will pull them to the earth at the same rate regardless of the horizontal velocity because orthogonal forces -- that is, forces at right angles to each other -- have no effect on each other.



~Granps

Yes, I understand Newton's second law, ignoring form factor and all. What's your thought on this quote from the site I linked to?

situation pictured in Figure 4.3-1. It results from the upward force Flift acting on the bullet throughout its flight. Generally, this vertical deflection is small compared to the crossrange deflection, but it can be observed, particularly in long-range target shooting.

The figure they are referring to doesn't show on my screen, but it sounds like they are talking about a slight upward vertical force acting on the projectile. When you fire a gun, the bullet usually has a slight drift to the right (or left?) so you need to do an Azimuth correction to the other side, correct? Could that not be the case with on the vertical side as well, even only by a mil or two?

[Grandpa]

I did read it and would emphasize the word "small" for that quote. The author is speaking more about his math than his observations.

There is another force (maybe not an actual 'force' per se, but another actiion) -- and I'll ask my son about it but basically its range is between the end of the barrel of the rifle and approximate 5 to 10 meters out that acts on the path and implies lift on the bullet. It could be from the recoil of the rifle or could be from the 'typical alignment' of the sights. It would be better to see the diagrams but it might take me some time to IM my son (he's sleeping).

Will edit this after I get the site from my son for you. In the meantime check this site out: Bullet Trajectory, by Mike Nelson.

The subject is fascinating - when I spoke to my son about it on the phone he got a little excited and started telling me how water vapor actually boils as the bullet cuts through the air. It isn't just because of friction but more because the boiling point of water is lowered by the reduced air pressure at the point. In depth study of ballistics requires advanced understanding of physics.

When you fire a gun, the bullet usually has a slight drift to the right (or left?) so you need to do an Azimuth correction to the other side, correct?

To answer your question, no. I never have to make any adjustment to my sights for windage in the absence of wind.

Further, when we look at (maybe even youtube? - haven't searched) expert snipers who are competing over distances of 3 miles - they take very precise measurements for distance - down to the foot and then get two test shots to "dial in" their guess for wind. They drop dust or dirt to get the general idea of what way the wind is blowing and make an educated guess. Then pop off a round, make an adjustment and take their final test shot. Then they have 10 seconds to hit their target 3 miles away 5 times. The point is that when it comes down to hitting a man sized target from a distance of three (3) miles (4,828.032m) they pay great attention to distance, and comparatively little attention to cross wind.

I can't say categorically that there is no 'crossrange deflection' due to spin but only that I don't know of any. Some of these discussions are theoretical in nature and never observed (especially over a range of 140m).

~Granps

[PR0METHEUS]

I did read it and would emphasize the word "small" for that quote. The author is speaking more about his math than his observations.

There is another force (maybe not an actual 'force' per se, but another actiion) -- and I'll ask my son about it but basically its range is between the end of the barrel of the rifle and approximate 5 to 10 meters out that acts on the path and implies lift on the bullet. It could be from the recoil of the rifle or could be from the 'typical alignment' of the sights. It would be better to see the diagrams but it might take me some time to IM my son (he's sleeping).

Will edit this after I get the site from my son for you. In the meantime check this site out: Bullet Trajectory, by Mike Nelson.

The subject is fascinating - when I spoke to my son about it on the phone he got a little excited and started telling me how water vapor actually boils as the bullet cuts through the air. It isn't just because of friction but more because the boiling point of water is lowered by the reduced air pressure at the point. In depth study of ballistics requires advanced understanding of physics.

When you fire a gun, the bullet usually has a slight drift to the right (or left?) so you need to do an Azimuth correction to the other side, correct?

To answer your question, no. I never have to make any adjustment to my sights for windage in the absence of wind.

Further, when we look at (maybe even youtube? - haven't searched) expert snipers who are competing over distances of 3 miles - they take very precise measurements for distance - down to the foot and then get two test shots to "dial in" their guess for wind. They drop dust or dirt to get the general idea of what way the wind is blowing and make an educated guess. Then pop off a round, make an adjustment and take their final test shot. Then they have 10 seconds to hit their target 3 miles away 5 times. The point is that when it comes down to hitting a man sized target from a distance of three (3) miles (4,828.032m) they pay great attention to distance, and comparatively little attention to cross wind.

I can't say categorically that there is no 'crossrange deflection' due to spin but only that I don't know of any. Some of these discussions are theoretical in nature and never observed (especially over a range of 140m).

~Granps

Thank you for that. It makes a lot of sense. I know that even if there was a vertical force affecting the round, it would be barely noticeable, at least to the naked eye. Perhaps software might notice it. *shrugs*

What about how the weapon is sighted? I'm sure you can tell now that I'm no weapon expert