Olympic Flame

[XemnasXD]

i've been to several protest regarding the war in Darfur and other protest supporting the impeachment of Bush so don't question my stance on human rights. We get it your Chinese and we know our gov't won't do anything real about Tibet unless theres money involved. We also know most Americans are too shallow to boycott Chinese goods with regard to Tibet but to be fair most Americans don't know Tibet exist much less what happened there. All that is true and fair but never disregard human protest as worthless because the more ppl who band together to try get something done the higher chance it'll happen or at least the message will be heard.

I've not shown disregard for human protests, there was a big pro Chinese protest in Canada that just did not get reported awhile ago that my friend went to. If you want I know where to get the videos.

This is a protest against the Chinese actions in Tibet. You can't defend that no matter how hard you try because it was wrong and anyone with morals and ethics can see that. It can easily be compared to Hitler stomping over smaller defenseless European countries. China is China and like the US they'll do what they think they can get away with to increase their power whenever they can but just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make Chinas actions anyless despicable and BTW if no cared if me and Jstar1 and ppl like us don't support China hosting the Olympics it wouldn't be all over the news and this thread wouldn't be here. Some ppl are taking more radical actions than others but until we decide to invade a peaceful country, massacre its inhabitants, and then act like it didn't happen and they were asking for it i don't think we've gone to far.

What do you know about China and Tibet other than what your media tells you? Nothing, you've not seen it yourself neither has another very close to you. Just that already makes your opinion invalid and worthless, and from your analogy of China to Hitler invading other countries, you either read some shit and took a dive and felt very strongly for it or your just stupid. Really I hope its the first one, though it makes little difference.

I don't recall China begging you and anyone to watch the Olympics, and no where in this did it specifically ask for XemnasXD's opinion. If you actually think China cares whether you are watching the Olympics or not, you really need to think again.

You just feel the need to post your weightless opinions of China for the sake of it, nothing else.

Im sorry for expressing my opinions on a forum....i guess i shouldn't do that.....

Please don't, it'll make the world a better place for everyone.

Seeing as im a part of the public outside China and this really is just a big publicity stunt i think they do care if you know PEOPLE are watching the Olympics. You can just try and single me out as one person but if the protest are any indication there are alot of ppl who won't be supporting the Olympics this year and i don't think China spent all that money making Beijing look nice just so ppl could ignore it.

Your right i've never been to China or Tibet but i've never been to Iraq and i know thats in a shitty state right now. I wasn't alive during WWII but i know what happened. I've never been to Antarctica but i'd be willing to bet there's snow there. If im talking out my ass then prove me wrong in your words explain what China did in Tibet and why it was justifiable because i'd love to hear it. The only thing you've been saying this whole thread is "You've never been you don't know sh1t" i can google image "Tibet Invasion" "Tibet massacre" and find all the media i need to form my opinions but all those pictures and all that info out there in books, magazines, memoirs, webpages ALL that means nothing because i've never been right. XuChu your starting to sound like one of those edited versions of history they teach in Chinese schools. Media is the ONLY source of documented information we have of those events, you can't dismiss it, you can't ignore it, stop trying.

[Snoopy]

Your right i've never been to China or Tibet but i've never been to Iraq and i know thats in a shitty state right now. I wasn't alive during WWII but i know what happened. I've never been to Antarctica but i'd be willing to bet there's snow there. If im talking out my ass then prove me wrong in your words explain what China did in Tibet and why it was justifiable because i'd love to hear it. The only thing you've been saying this whole thread is "You've never been you don't know sh1t" i can google image "Tibet Invasion" "Tibet massacre" and find all the media i need to form my opinions but all those pictures and all that info out there in books, magazines, memoirs, webpages ALL that means nothing because i've never been right. XuChu your starting to sound like one of those edited versions of history they teach in Chinese schools. Media is the ONLY source of documented information we have of those events, you can't dismiss it, you can't ignore it, stop trying.

I really like you =D.

[TOloseGT]

wtf? of course it wasn't justifiable. but that's a stupid point to make. so much of the shit we do isn't "justifiable", but it happens.

u wanna protest? do it. u wanna whine? do it. but don't fking try to extinguish the olympic torch, cuz u do that and the whole world will be against u.

[[SD]happynoobing]

You really don't get anything do you.

1. The US gov't doesn't care about Tibet. We've made some speeches but never done anything about it.
2. The US gov't Supports and Arms Israel. We've sunk billions into giving Israel the power to take on most of if not the entire Middle-East with ease, it would be stupid to go against that now.
3. The Dalai Lama would never support the CIA, an agency responsible for most of the terrorism thats plagued the world for the last 50+ years.

unfortunately, there is clear evidence, files released by the US government (and admitted by the US government) that says the CIA had funded and trained tibetans and assisted them in the 1959 uprising. The same evidence also says CIA has being funding the tibetan government in exile (led by Dalai Lama) until at least the late 1960's. this is the primary reason why Dalai Lama was able to escape to India and establish a government there in the first place. Therefore 2 of your arguments just failed, except for the CIA being responsible for most of the terrorism part.

No Im Right. Its cute that you tried though, you obviously feel strongly about the issue.

lol and now you are quoting from a source which originated from the free tibet organizations. if you have ever taken IB history you would know how important it is to evaluate your sources in terms of their origin. if this is how you want to argue then i might as well quote everything xinhua said.

[MrJoey]

Lol XuChu, you're just one of 1.3billion Chinese

Your right, I am just another one of the many Chinese showing support to his country, but us Chinese unlike Europeans, and in fact some Tibetans know what we are supporting, we've seen it ourselves, not heard what is broad casted on TV.

Uh huh... You do realize that China censors what their people are allowed to see right? Of course you're gonna say stuff that makes China look and smell rosey.

[XemnasXD]

[
unfortunately, there is clear evidence, files released by the US government (and admitted by the US government) that says the CIA had funded and trained tibetans and assisted them in the 1959 uprising. The same evidence also says CIA has being funding the tibetan government in exile (led by Dalai Lama) until at least the late 1960's. this is the primary reason why Dalai Lama was able to escape to India and establish a government there in the first place. Therefore 2 of your arguments just failed, except for the CIA being responsible for most of the terrorism part.

No Im Right. Its cute that you tried though, you obviously feel strongly about the issue.

lol and now you are quoting from a source which originated from the free tibet organizations. if you have ever taken IB history you would know how important it is to evaluate your sources in terms of their origin. if this is how you want to argue then i might as well quote everything xinhua said.

that was the quickest article i could find but its not an unknown thing that CIA involvement was grossly exaggerated when it comes to helping the Dalai Lama. If you want a better story Here I know its old but its an interview with the Dalai Lama himself and even he doesn't mention receiving CIA help he only mentions Tibetan Guerrillas which while he respects he distances himself from....plz don't think you know alot cause you took an advanced High School history class, i took AP history too whooptie doo

[heroo]

People are soooo focking stupid these days, really.

i mean it's known since 2000 that the Olympics will be held in China.

WE ALREADY KNOW IT FOR 8 YEARS!

now, months before the Olympics, people all of a sudden are protesting against it and against the olympic flame. i mean really, STFU. if you wanted to protest, you should have done it 8 years ago and not now when everything is set.

[XemnasXD]

People are soooo focking stupid these days, really.

i mean it's known since 2000 that the Olympics will be held in China.

WE ALREADY KNOW IT FOR 8 YEARS!

now, months before the Olympics, people all of a sudden are protesting against it and against the olympic flame. i mean really, STFU. if you wanted to protest, you should have done it 8 years ago and not now when everything is set.

ppl have been protesting Tibet since it first reached public news. Its only getting more recognition now because the protesters are snuffing out the flame and getting in the public eye....They were doing it 8 years ago, and 8 years b4 that, and 8 years b4 that etc....

[heroo]

People are soooo focking stupid these days, really.

i mean it's known since 2000 that the Olympics will be held in China.

WE ALREADY KNOW IT FOR 8 YEARS!

now, months before the Olympics, people all of a sudden are protesting against it and against the olympic flame. i mean really, STFU. if you wanted to protest, you should have done it 8 years ago and not now when everything is set.

ppl have been protesting Tibet since it first reached public news. Its only getting more recognition now because the protesters are snuffing out the flame and getting in the public eye....They were doing it 8 years ago, and 8 years b4 that, and 8 years b4 that etc....

i know. but it's not about Tibet anymore, at leats here in holland. and even if it was about Tibet, politics don't have anything to do with sport. China's foreign policy has nothing to do with the Olympics.

[Priam]

Yes. I do believe the protesters, and several westerns governments make a good point about china's action in tibet. Which, unlike what Xuch is trying to get a cross, indeed are very similar to the stuff shown on television.
The games shouldn't have gone to China in the first place.

No, i don not believe extuinguishing the flame is the way to go, that's ruining it for everyone, not just China.

And no, China won't change a thing, as they haven't in the last god knows how many years.

[[SD]happynoobing]

that was the quickest article i could find but its not an unknown thing that CIA involvement was grossly exaggerated when it comes to helping the Dalai Lama. If you want a better story Here I know its old but its an interview with the Dalai Lama himself and even he doesn't mention receiving CIA help he only mentions Tibetan Guerrillas which while he respects he distances himself from....plz don't think you know alot cause you took an advanced High School history class, i took AP history too whooptie doo

having dalai lama admitting his direct connection to the CIA is like having the chinese leader openly admit the tianenmen massacre was wrong, especially since he had repeatedly denied connections with CIA before the classified documents were released (and we all know "his holiness" is not a liar *rollseye*). he did admit that CIA had supported the tibetan guerrillas, which caused the 1959 uprising. and that alone counters your original argument regarding "The US gov't doesn't care about Tibet. We've made some speeches but never done anything about it."

[XuChu]

I could tell you the whole Tibet story, but I don't care enough about what you all think of China as to try to teach you history, I've got an exam coming up or post here any more either

Uh huh... You do realize that China censors what their people are allowed to see right? Of course you're gonna say stuff that makes China look and smell rosey.

If you think for a second that China, no actually [/i]any government[/i] can make propaganda/censorship so effect to fool 1.6 billion Chinese people for generations even the ones overseas, and propaganda that most Americans think they can tell apart from, then you are stupid, like that avatar of yours.

Moreover, you all say whatever shit you want, watch it or not, whether you believe China should or should not host the Olympics.
Your opinion is wotthless to China.
We are hosting the Olympics
It will happen
Tibet will always be a part of China
people care enough about Tibetans, China to really care. Regardless of what you think, truth is China hasn't said shit about leaders like Merkel who are boycotting the Olympics. Why? Because we don't give a damn. So despite what you may think, China doesn't give a damn no more, its not the first time we've have human rights poked at us. We've had it since the beginning of new China, we've been through much worse, when we've been excluded internally. But did it stop our country from growing? No.

Today a few of you people dance around yelling with your ridiculous signs still throwing the same trick because you think China would be scared that Europeans won't watch Olympics. Its a joke in comparison to the tests China has been through.

For what reason does a nation that was conquered by a minority for 600 years continue to exist and live on being a known country in the world? For what reason is it that Chinese immigrants move out of their home country and live through decades of discrimination, bullying and some times massacre, eventually to prosper, to make a mark on that countries economy, education, and more? For what reason does a nation give birth to generations and generations of proud descendants regardless of their conditions? For what reason do you feel the presence of Chinese everywhere? For what reason is China one of the most ancient civilisations and the only ancient civilisation that still stands strong today? For what reason is a country so much 'poorer' and 'behind' so much bigger than your 'advanced' Britain, France, Germany? For what reason do some Chinese people love a country that's government once massacred half his family?

If you think Olympics really means that much to China as to stand on equals with the unification of our nation, you really don't know China and its people at all. Why does China stand firm on Taiwan issue despite whatever shit you say? Because its our land, you know its our land as well.

China will never let itself be another Korea.

[Snoopy]

People are soooo focking stupid these days, really.

i mean it's known since 2000 that the Olympics will be held in China.

WE ALREADY KNOW IT FOR 8 YEARS!

now, months before the Olympics, people all of a sudden are protesting against it and against the olympic flame. i mean really, STFU. if you wanted to protest, you should have done it 8 years ago and not now when everything is set.

Yeah? and?

Look at the controversy it's creating. Exactly what they set out to do, create controversy. They're taking advantage over China's current weak spot.

[redneck]

People are soooo focking stupid these days, really.

i mean it's known since 2000 that the Olympics will be held in China.

WE ALREADY KNOW IT FOR 8 YEARS!

now, months before the Olympics, people all of a sudden are protesting against it and against the olympic flame. i mean really, STFU. if you wanted to protest, you should have done it 8 years ago and not now when everything is set.

Yeah? and?

Look at the controversy it's creating. Exactly what they set out to do, create controversy. They're taking advantage over China's current weak spot.

goddamn hippies always instigating....Can never mind their own Farking business

[Snoopy]

What a pathetic call coming from a redneck =o.

[redneck]

What a pathetic call coming from a redneck =o.

sorry, I missed the funny?

[Jstar1]

umm lol? your saying that we can't justify anything because we've never been to tibet or we don't get all the information?

The hyprocrisy is insane, Xuchu, the chinese government shut tibet from journalists..and your right, we don't have a clear idea what is going on. We don't know how many tibetans died. Regardless whether 2000 or 20 people died...people are still dying. That is the point and that is what people are angry about.

I'm surprised that Beijing didn't see this coming cause the olympics has always been used for political purposes. I wonder if Beijing actually thought the tibetans and muslim minorities actually liked China after rights supression and such.

China can have their olympics, who said it wasn't going to happen? Whats ironic is that China wanted the west to see how great it was..all the olympics are doing is bringing china's human rights issues to a bright limelight.

[SM-Count]

You guys are getting a bit off topic. The 'real' topic is should they boy cott / protest the olympic flame, and I believe that the U.S. will accomplish as much as they did in 1980. That is to say, nothing.

[Regret]

Thats really sad how people would do such a thing , really. Never heard about this either..

[XuChu]

umm lol? your saying that we can't justify anything because we've never been to tibet or we don't get all the information?

You think by doing your little research on the internet you can understand the situation more than someone who's seen it for himself? If you studied WWII for 5 years does that mean you know better than your grand dad who fought it about the battlefield?
All you get is second hand shit, go taste the real thing.

The hyprocrisy is insane, Xuchu, the chinese government shut tibet from journalists..and your right, we don't have a clear idea what is going on. We don't know how many tibetans died. Regardless whether 2000 or 20 people died...people are still dying. That is the point and that is what people are angry about.

Sure we shut them at first, but that didn't stop all your media talking as if their there does it? Regardless of the people dying, because its not about Tibetans dying, its about China. If it was really about people dying, there are a handful of people dying from aids in Africa, and Israel etc. But because its not about the people dying at all, its about China, that's the centre of the attention.

I'm surprised that Beijing didn't see this coming cause the olympics has always been used for political purposes. I wonder if Beijing actually thought the tibetans and muslim minorities actually liked China after rights supression and such.

China can have their olympics, who said it wasn't going to happen? Whats ironic is that China wanted the west to see how great it was..all the olympics are doing is bringing china's human rights issues to a bright limelight.

Oh Beijing didn't see this coming? Think about what the **** you say before you say it, your either stupid to hell to think China had not anticipated this or your just posting for the sake of it.

I think you guys have mistaken this as a debate of some sort, because this is not a debate. There is no debate, you guys don't even know the situation in China, you know you don't but you still try to 'prove your point.' Neither my support nor China's interests, history are subject to debate.

China did want the entire western world to see how great it was, and China will. If you think all Olympics does for China is bring human rights issue, you are pretty damn short sighted and obviously don't understand that China having world's attention will draw both negative and positive attention.

No we're not off topic, this protest is not really about Tibet. Tibet is merely an excuse on the surface, the real thing is about China. It's about the west throwing a full on media war on China.

[StuckUP]

Some1 in this thread said something about China brainwashing people to think that what China does is right...well ^ is the perfect example of it.

[XemnasXD]

i like how XuChu is still mum on Tibet, trying to focus our attention away from what actually happened. One could say she simply ignoring it so can can boast about the better aspects of Chinese life and history. I think StuckUp my be onto something with this brainwashing theory...

[Jstar1]

i like how XuChu is still mum on Tibet, trying to focus our attention away from what actually happened. One could say she simply ignoring it so can can boast about the better aspects of Chinese life and history. I think StuckUp my be onto something with this brainwashing theory...

xuchu, you need to take a view from another perspective. Not from inside china to out, but from outside to inside of china. There is a reason why there is a negative light about china. The western media isn't here to bully china or take potshots at you with fresh ammunition from the tibet stuff, they have a reason to accuse china of problems, people aren't trying to push china around, if they wanted to do that, theres plenty of pushing around george bush

[XuChu]

i like how XuChu is still mum on Tibet, trying to focus our attention away from what actually happened. One could say she simply ignoring it so can can boast about the better aspects of Chinese life and history. I think StuckUp my be onto something with this brainwashing theory...

What actually happened? I would tell you what actually happened, but you actually have no regards about China's story, because happynoobing posted a lot of stuff about China but all you did was try to find something in his post and prove it wrong, and that's what you do, you don't really care about China. But you just want to try to prove others wrong because you think it makes you look smart or something.

Some1 in this thread said something about China brainwashing people to think that what China does is right...well ^ is the perfect example of it.

I really wish that was true. If any single country could brain wash 1.6 billion different people, and the millions over seas like myself and rest of the Chinese on this board; into believing one thing, despite all the shit foreign media has to say, unless its true. It won't be long until they dominate our planet.

xuchu, you need to take a view from another perspective. Not from inside china to out, but from outside to inside of china. There is a reason why there is a negative light about china. The western media isn't here to bully china or take potshots at you with fresh ammunition from the tibet stuff, they have a reason to accuse china of problems, people aren't trying to push china around, if they wanted to do that, theres plenty of pushing around george bush

Before you tell me to take another perspective, think about this.
I've lived both INSIDE and OUTSIDE of China, I live everyday hearing what the BBC, CNN, ABC etc say. I know many people outside China and a few inside.
Can you say the same? No of course not, so before you tell me to take a different perspective think about why I haven't told any of you to take a different perspective. Simply because you can't, all you know about China is from what you have heard from YOUR media, you've not lived in China either, everything you know about your world you've never seen China view on it. Its like me trying to say that Americans have harder lives than Koreans because I've read some books/reports on it to a Korean who lived in Korea and America who says otherwise, then I tell them to take another perspective.
So despite what some of you may think you know, you don't

[Jstar1]

*Sigh* all your doing is shutting both your ears with your hands and shouting. Your basically saying that none of us can talk or have any credibility because we haven't been to china or seen china's view. So I'm done here, I don't think any of us can have a normal discussion with you.

[XemnasXD]

i like how XuChu is still mum on Tibet, trying to focus our attention away from what actually happened. One could say she simply ignoring it so can can boast about the better aspects of Chinese life and history. I think StuckUp my be onto something with this brainwashing theory...

What actually happened? I would tell you what actually happened, but you actually have no regards about China's story, because happynoobing posted a lot of stuff about China but all you did was try to find something in his post and prove it wrong, and that's what you do, you don't really care about China. But you just want to try to prove others wrong because you think it makes you look smart or something.

plz, me and happynoobing discussed that issue into pms because both of us were using credible sources and it came down to our personal beliefs....

I asked you to tell me because every time i brought up anything i knew about Tibet you basically told me i know nothing. So i wanted YOU to fill me in on what i was missing since i was clearly so wrong. And don't blame me if im proving stuff wrong, no one likes misinformation. I could see you complaining if i was posting BS but if im proving something wrong with facts and sources what good was the information that was posted in the first place. I don't know what kind of discussions you have with ppl where you take everything they say at face value and challenge nothing that seems suspicious, it just doesn't seem intellectual.

So in your eyes i know nothing about what happened in Tibet. So tell me what happened in your eyes and then maybe i could see where your coming from. But if your going to post a story that i think is BS, expect me to challenge it. If your not going to post the story because your afraid it will be challenged then GTFO cause im tired of you just dissing the obvious evidence all around with your See no, Speak no, Hear no policy on Tibet.

[XuChu]

I ain't going to say a thing, come and bite me

Nah if you really care to know it, but generally I'd say that's barely your attitude, I'll probably post about Tibet tomorrow after the exams, its 12:30 am and I think I'm ready to sleep now.





But meanwhile watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo
Its what a lot of new generation Chinese feel.
The video maker is a bit extreme in some cases, but there is a lot of facts.

----
I'll try to explain this but because I highly doubt any of you know much about China apart from what you hear on the news,so it might be a bit confusing in bits. You really need to see these things for yourself to understand, good saying by Confucius 'I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand'

Tibet has been a part of multiple Chinese dynasties, for a nearly a thousand years Tibet has been a part of China. But there was a time of chaos in China in late Qing dynasty (last dynasty ruled by Manchu's another of the many minorities in China who conquerored the Ming [Han ruled dynasty], one of the two only none- Han[Majority of Chinese, modern Chinese govt = Han] dynasties) this is when colonists arrived in China to try to split China and take stuff for themselves Hong Kong(Britain), Taiwan(Japan) as promised by Manchus.

In this period, there were unhappy Hans because Manchus treated Hans very unequally, ie. the pigtail thing, all Hans must have pigtails because the Manchus wanted that. That wasn't too big a deal, we all still peacefully and calmly lived together for a few hundred years, until the Manchus starting giving treasure and land away to Europeans because they were too incompetent to make a China a strong nation and suffered defeats to Europeans, especially when the Empress Dowager wanted her Yi He Yuan again which was rebuilt on military budget, a big contributing factor to the loss to the British. (Yi He Yuan 2.2 square kilometers of man labour, including a massive man built hill/lake, many classical architecture and gardens.)

Seeing such corruption and incompetence and being trampled on, the Han rebelled and eventually the Republic of China was set up after long period of warlords combating, in this warlord combating period which lasted if I remember correctly around a decade, the country was divided so much there were several big warlords in one province, Tibet like the others would have a self proclaimed ruler in its area especially when its so much more undeveloped incomparison to other areas of China, and its so far. Much colonial influence was removed as a result of the new government. Many unequal treaties signed by the Qing government were abandoned, but only for a few years, the military martial of the ruling party Kuo Min Tang that supported the revolution wanted to be emperor, his name was Yuan Shi Kai, he was a military martial in Qing Dynasty, he supported the Empress Dowager, stopping the Emperor from modernising China having an elected parliament like Britain. Sun Yat Sen the father of the revolution agreed to let him be leader, as president of the party to prevent the civil war era prolonging. But Yuan Shi Kai did not want to be president, underneath he wanted to be the Emperor. He lasted not a year when he proclaimed himself Emperor, this time a well known leader, Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek became president.
By this time foreign power had weakened and almost disappeared in China, only with some areas like Canton (Nowadays Guang Zhou) having British/Japanese presence. Chiang though the president of China, still had competition in certain areas where his influence is weak, only in areas like Shanghai etc did he have much power, Chinese army were still foot soldiers with rifles, with some cavalry, few light armoured vehicles, and few artillery, it was impossible to go fighting in Tibet. Chiang spent much his time turning the warlords against each other, then eliminating them. Stabilising almost all of developed China. At this time, Chinese poor were from very poor, to absolutely poverty stricken. The rich became extremely prosperous, this is the reason for the start of the communist party.

During this time, Japanese presence and influence in the 3 north eastern Chinese provinces grew much completely replacing Russians, 3 north eastern Chinese provinces are where the Manchu's great ancestors came from now a days (Liaoning, Heilongjiang, Jilin provinces) and set up a puppet government with the last Manchu Emperor Pu Yi as leader. Chiang despite fighting all the Chinese warlords, did not fight the Japanese. This made Chinese youth mad, along with the poverty and unequality of rich and poor, brought much support to Communist party.
Soon another long period war unrest began, it continued until 1949 with the communist take over which followed up with Korean war, then Sino Vietnamese/Indian.
During that entire century from 1840s -> 1950s, Tibetans did as they pleased without rule, this is only because of the chaos in China, but when the communists came Tibetans were once again a part of China. Colonists have created much land disputes for China with this complicated bit of history. If China is in the wrong for taking back its land, Americans and Europeans aren't the ones to talk. Europeans have colonised and still possess land that does not rightfully belong to them, almost all if not all of Britain's colonies have history of either cheating of land, forceful taking, confiscation of land. France is a bit better, but places like Vietnam, and Algeria which were once French colony were only given up because the French failed to keep it, despite their efforts. Americans should know their story with the Mexicans and Indians.

There's the short history of China and its reason over Tibet, I've kept anything remotely controversial out from it, any historian studying history from that era should agree with most if not everything I've written here.
I'm tired and I need to fix my sleeping pattern, I've got to catch a flight to Beijing on Thursday.